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Old 08-06-2012, 10:32 AM
dcliffhanger dcliffhanger is offline
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Wheelgun vs auto
9mm vs .45

I am so glad you brought these points up since no one has ever covered these issues before and we need a good final decision on both topics!

I am sure this thread will eleminate all the myth, bring up new facts that have been unknown for the past 100 years and force a mandatory distruction of one pistol type or the other and force the ammo manufactureres to stop producing which-ever foul and hatefull ammo type that is decided to be useless.
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Old 08-06-2012, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dcliffhanger View Post
Wheelgun vs auto
9mm vs .45

I am so glad you brought these points up since no one has ever covered these issues before and we need a good final decision on both topics!

I am sure this thread will eleminate all the myth, bring up new facts that have been unknown for the past 100 years and force a mandatory distruction of one pistol type or the other and force the ammo manufactureres to stop producing which-ever foul and hatefull ammo type that is decided to be useless.
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:41 PM
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With proper ammo choices, effectiveness between the top handgun cartridges is very close. I switched over to the .45 ACP for one reason and one reason only. It's the most effective *low pressure* cartridge. Anyone who has had to touch off a round in an enclosed area understands my reasoning.
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Old 08-06-2012, 05:59 PM
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The thing I noticed was all of your experience with 9mm was last century. The newer ammo technology puts the 9mm on par with the .45. Then if you consider the capacity advantage it's win win for the wonder 9.
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Old 08-06-2012, 07:17 PM
Enscheff Enscheff is offline
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So your argument is the 45 "feels right". Solid reasoning...

Sorry, but I'll stick with the higher capacity, lower recoil, and cheaper ammo, and I won't think twice about it.
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Old 08-07-2012, 01:36 AM
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I am confident comfortable, and experienced in shooting my 1911 and that is the gun I choose to sit on my nightstand, and to carry.

As my friend said, "We can stand here and talk about this all day but in the end all it ends up being is just that....TALK!"
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:15 AM
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I hate 9mm vs .45 debates, for the specific reason that I've seen and know of people that have been shot by both rounds, and they are still alive. A neighbor that took his life with a single shot from a .22lr would say .22lr is a good man stopper.

If you think it matters what round you have in your chamber if you can't hit the person, then you failed before you started.
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Old 08-07-2012, 02:28 AM
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well for me a first time handgun owner i chose the 9mm because the ammo is cheap. its a common round, and i figure i will suck at shooting it so why not save money and practice skills first, but i do plan on getting a 1911 one day
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Old 08-07-2012, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by justanotherface View Post
Good topic!

I feel both have their place and I have one of each in my battery!
As a Nam Vet.. I prefer the .45acp for close combat stopping power and ruggedness.

The 9mm with the right ammo has stopping power to and is good as a small game round as well. Just a thought.. weapons deals are made by our Gov for many different reasons...I am glad to see the USMC going back to 1911's. I qualified with that weapon in 1972, 73 and 74 and am partial to it.

The Baretta 93FS I own is more of a back up weapon I keep in my car.

JAF
You keep a Beretta M93 in your car? I wouldn't DREAM of keeping a Class 3 weapon insecured like that! I'm guessing you mean a Beretta M92?
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:11 AM
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Whatever you have that goes BANG, just get good with it, whatever caliber it is, PERIOD!
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by kev View Post
In the 1980s there were three events that helped influence my opinion on handguns and handgun calibers.

#1 – My dad and I were having a discussion on a revolver vs a pistol. Even though a revolver holds fewer rounds then a pistol, my dad liked the revolver over pistol the due to the reliability of the revolver. There was nothing to jam with the revolver like there is with a pistol.

My dad worked as a Jasper County Texas deputy sheriff during the 1970s. Even though I greatly respect his opinion, I feel that his opinion might have been influenced by organizations like the FBI who used a service revolver instead of a pistol like the 1911.

The service revolver my dad used was a S&W model 66 combat magnum. When I graduated high school in 1986, mom and dad bought me a model 66 combat magnum just like dads.

There were two major sticking points on the revolver vs pistol discussion my dad and I had. Those points where the effectiveness of the 357 magnum, and the reliability of the revolver.

If you are going to use a handgun, make sure its reliable and make sure the cartridge is large enough to get the job done.

Remington 1911 R1 and Beretta 92FS



#2 – When I was around 16 or maybe 17 years old, a buddy of mine and I went over to a mutual friends house. The mutual friend brought us out to a field where we shot a 1911 45 acp. The 1911 belong to the friends dad. We had permission to be in the field, and the parent knew we had a handgun.

That was the first time I had ever shot a pistol, much less a 1911.

Shooting the 1911 was “enjoyable”. I do not how else to describe it. The recoil was not excessive, the trigger pull was just right, fast reloading as compared to a revolver.

#3 – Military testing in the 1980s as they were looking for a new handgun.

As the military test were being done, I picked up every gun magazine that talked about the test. I just happened to have had a subscription to Shooting Times. I remember getting the magazine in the mail that had “Beretta won the war” on the front cover. A good bit of that issue was dedicated to the military testing.

As the military was looking for a 9mm pistol, there was always the 9mm vs 45 acp debate going on in the background. People from both sides of the debate voiced their opinion, then there was the FBI ballistics test, how the 9mm and the 45 acp preformed in times of war.

There was one major difference between the military test and the civilian test, the military can not use hollow point ammunition. While the civilian market was studying the effective of different types of hollow point ammunition, the military was focusing on the reliability of various handguns.

The military testing boiled down to the same thing my dad told me – effectiveness of the caliber and reliability of the firearm.

Beretta 92FS

I bought my Beretta 92fs in January of 1989. Over the past 23+ years, the pistol has been a proven performer. Some of my buddies and I used to go to a local sand pit where we would shoot over 2,000 rounds of 9mm in a single day. The Beretta 92fs shot everything, and I mean everything.

The only type of ammunition that did not work well was CCI blazer aluminum case. For some reason those rounds liked to turn vertical in the magazine. If the magazine had an anti-tilt follower, the rounds turning vertical in the magazine would not have been an issue.

The military test greatly influenced my decision to buy a Beretta 92fs. When the time came to buy, it was either the Beretta or the Sig Sauer, I went with the Beretta.

As much as I like my Beretta, I also have one major complaint, and that is the trigger. The trigger absolutely sucks. The first round (double action) is ok, the second round (single action) is terrible. The trigger feels like it has a mile of slack.

Overall, for the past 23+ years I have been very happy with the performance of the Beretta 92fs.

I have to admit, ever since I decided to go with the 9mm I have had doubts about its performance. During the 1980s and 1990s there were various stories of heavy clothing that prevented the 9mm from achieving optimal penetration.

During the Moro Rebellion, the 38 long colt proved to be ineffective in stopping a charging Moro warrior. The inability of the 38 long colt has always been in the back of my head. How effective would the 9mm be in stopping a charging meth head?

Shortly after various police agencies adopted the 9mm in the 1980s, stories started coming out about police officers having to shoot people on PCP several times.

From the Moro warrior and PCP examples, I had doubts about how effective the 9mm would be in stopping looters during a SHTF situation.

Remington 1911 R1

My wife bought me a Remington 1911 R1 for my birthday. Ever since I shot a 1911 back in the mid-1980s I have always wanted one. I am not getting any younger, so why not go ahead and buy a 1911?

Around 15 years ago I bought a Ruger P90, which is chambered in 45 acp. About 10 years my wife and I got into a financial bind, and I had to sell the Ruger P90 to pay some bills. The P90 is a nice pistol, but its no 1911.

There is just something about the 1911. It feels right in the hand, recoil is not excessive, its easy to field strip, its reliable,,, what is there not to like?

One of the things that makes the 9mm comparable the the 45 acp is how well the 9mm hollow points perform. If you remove the hollow points from the equation, what you are left with is 45 acp making a bigger hole then 9mm.

If you are going to sling a chunk of lead down range, why not sling the biggest lead you can find?

I find comfort shooting a 220 grain bullet, as compared to a 115 grain bullet.

There is just something about the 1911 that feels “right”, if that makes sense to you.

Magazine Capacity

One of the big debates between the 9mm and the 45 acp is the magazine capacity. Would you rather have 15 rounds of 9mm or 7 or 8 rounds of 45 acp?

If magazine capacity should be the deciding factor, why did so maybe law enforcement agencies carry 6 shot revolvers after the 1911 was introduced? When the 1911 was introduced, and proven in world War I, why didn’t all law enforcement agencies switch over to the 1911 for the extra rounds?

One of the reasons why I originally picked the 9mm over the 45 acp is because of the 15 round magazine. I have to admit that I like having 15 rounds over 7 or 8 rounds.

Should magazine capacity be the deciding factor over cartridge performance?

Stockpiling Ammunition

From a survivalist point of view, while stockpiling ammunition for SHTF / TEOTWAWKI,its important to stockpile what works not only in your firearm, but also what works in your buddies firearm.

Lets say that some kind of long term SHTF / TEOTWAWKI situation happens. You bug out to your Bug Out Location. A couple of weeks later some relatives or friends of the family show up. The guest bring whatever food, water, supplies and firearms they have. Now you and your buddies are going to have to share the ammunition, just like all other supplies.

Its the classic debate, 9mm VS 45 acp. Some people skip the debate all together and go with a 40S&W. I do not care for the snap recoil of the 40, so I am staying with either the 9mm or the 45 acp.

We mentioned earlier that the 9mm relies on hollow point ammunition to match the performance of the 45 acp. Why should I buy expensive hollow point 9mm when I can just buy 45 acp FMJ?

Share your opinion in the 9mm vs 45 acp debate. Which one is your primary sidearm, and why?
Mine is a browning hipower. I bought this pistol because I liked the pistol and this particular model took a buttstock. I believe stats tell us the .45 is a superior fight stopper. However, there is only a little bit of difference between the two if you use the better 9mm ammo. On the flipside of this is the simple fact some 85% of all people shot with pistols in the us survive the shooting. All pistol calibers are lousy killers.

Years ago I knew an honest to god mercenary. He told me the only thing a pistol was good for was to buy you time to get to your shotgun. I think he had a point.
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:40 AM
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My first gun I ever shot in 1989 when I was 14 was a Colt Gov Model 1911 MKIV Series 70. It has always been my gun to have. My Eleanor, my holy grail. Beginning of last year a mate of mine sold his 99.9% mint Gov Model Series 70. The gun is a late 70's early 80's Colt. I jumped on it like a bear on a picnic basket. If I must have only 1 pistol it would be this gun I will keep. I'm a huge 1911 fan and I think the platform works very well. It has served the US armed forces very well. There are newer, better designs I agree. Like most guns it’s not a perfect design but it’s a good design.

In South Africa our crime is violent, attackers are usually between 4 and 6 bad guys and they also stay and fight. All of them will usually be armed. This makes the 1911 not the best suitable handgun for SD in SA. I do however sometimes EDC my 1911. I like to wear a piece of history on my hip now and then. When I do I always carry my Colt with 8 round WC or STI mags and I carry 4 extra mags in Comp Tac mag carriers on my week side. I def don't feel "under gunned" at all when I use this setup.

I don’t really much care for the .45 vs 9mm debate. In SA most people that gets killed with handguns are most likely shot with a 9mm ball round. So 9mm works. Even with ball ammo. The uneducated BG that are busy shooting at you don’t worry about silly debates he is there to kill you and there is a big chance he will succeed. I also don’t care about .40. I have a 9mm guns and a .45. I don’t want to complicate things and get another calibre. It doesn’t make sense to me. In the end buy what you like and shoot what you want each of us will have our own preferences.
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Old 08-07-2012, 12:17 PM
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92fs. Mine is a Taurus, not a Beretta.

My reasoning is that the weapon is perfectly balanced. I can rapid fire the pistol and the barrel always drops right back where it was when I took the previous shot. So, not only can I fire faster with more rounds, I can put those rounds on target (in nearly the exact same spot). I have other 9mms and none of them do this. I can shoot fast with them, but they do not have the perfect balance that the 92fs has. I have to adjust after every shot. I really don't have to that with the 92fs. It just goes right back where it is supposed to go. I can drop 3 shots on target (or empty a mag) at lightning speed.

More reasons:
It will shoot any ammo I put in it with no problems.
I have fired 10s of thousands of rounds through it and it still looks and fires like new.
I can fire it fairly well one handed if need be.
The grip is perfect for me.
17 round mags.
It is aesthetically pleasing to me.
Ammo is cheap.


I have shot 1911s (some really nice ones). Not knocking them. They just aren't the thing for me.
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Old 08-07-2012, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by *Paladin* View Post
You keep a Beretta M93 in your car? I wouldn't DREAM of keeping a Class 3 weapon insecured like that! I'm guessing you mean a Beretta M92?
i started day dreaming for a sec,"damn that would be awsome to be able to just throw a beretta 93 in the trunk for a rainy day",be like ted nugent)


for me there is to many reasons to list for my love of my beretta 92,for the 9mm it is more simple,it works.9mm for war(parabellum) is cool to

i was also intrigued by just the bore size itself.there is 20+ ammo types with relatively the same bore size as the 9mm.(357,38,.380,makerov,ect)
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Old 08-07-2012, 01:28 PM
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If someone can take 51 shots of 9mm then it wasn't the caliber that was the problem. Seriously think about what you just said. Do you really think .45 would've made a huge difference here? Maybe 51 shots fired but I don't think anyone could survive 51 shots for any sustainable amount of time unless they were all terrible shots to non vital areas. Hell, even then that should be a lot, A LOT of blood loss. I'd like to see info on the story if you wouldn't mind.
I think I've heard this story before from the guy I took my CCW class from. He was an FBI instructor for a lot of years, but from his description the perp was only shot 19 times. According to him, an autopsy revealed that the 9mm rounds were self cauterizing the wounds, preventing the blood loss from dropping the guy right away.
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Old 08-07-2012, 01:49 PM
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I think I've heard this story before from the guy I took my CCW class from. He was an FBI instructor for a lot of years, but from his description the perp was only shot 19 times. According to him, an autopsy revealed that the 9mm rounds were self cauterizing the wounds, preventing the blood loss from dropping the guy right away.
blood lose dropping the guy doesnt sound right.you can cut somebodys arm or leg off and they could still shoot you in the face.the debate can go in circles for days with "what ifs".

here is a "what if".no matter what guns you got or how well your trained.some psycho can sneak up on you and slit your throat with a scrap piece of metal(aka shank,shiv,ect).guns just give you peace of mind,not guaranties.
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Old 08-07-2012, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Fenrell View Post
I think I've heard this story before from the guy I took my CCW class from. He was an FBI instructor for a lot of years, but from his description the perp was only shot 19 times. According to him, an autopsy revealed that the 9mm rounds were self cauterizing the wounds, preventing the blood loss from dropping the guy right away.
I'd find a different instructor in the future. Cauterizing wounds? Never heard that one before! Hahahaha!!! Maybe they were shooting 9mm tracer...
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Old 08-07-2012, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Fenrell View Post
I think I've heard this story before from the guy I took my CCW class from. He was an FBI instructor for a lot of years, but from his description the perp was only shot 19 times. According to him, an autopsy revealed that the 9mm rounds were self cauterizing the wounds, preventing the blood loss from dropping the guy right away.
No I read this same story in a Gun magazine maybe two years ago where this same 9mm, .40S&W vs .45 acp debate was raging. It was 51 times the 2nd slug took out his brain stem from what I remember. No vital organ shots either and yes it was with ball ammo as well. Yet if you really do research you find more and more stories like this.

Personally I will choose a larger bullet, doesn't mean a 9mm won't do the job. But a .45acp has more kinetic energy. Some may say that there ballistically even. But the .45acp has a better history of being a man stopper, while the 9mm doesn't have that well defined of a history especially as a man stopper. Now your aim will take out a lot of variables, and as already said a .22lr is a very well known man stopper when hitting a target such as a skull. A girl I know was killed by her $hitty boyfriend with a .22lr to the head. But if my life is on the line, I wanna sling the biggest heaviest bullet I can comfortable. That's why I choose the G23 in 40S&W as my concealed carry weapon. For other reasons then caliber size. But I won't knock anybody who does carry, as like I have said. With the right person behind the trigger even a .22lr is extremely deadly.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:03 PM
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No I read this same story in a Gun magazine maybe two years ago where this same 9mm, .40S&W vs .45 acp debate was raging. It was 51 times the 2nd slug took out his brain stem from what I remember. No vital organ shots either and yes it was with ball ammo as well. Yet if you really do research you find more and more stories like this.

Personally I will choose a larger bullet, doesn't mean a 9mm won't do the job. But a .45acp has more kinetic energy. Some may say that there ballistically even. But the .45acp has a better history of being a man stopper, while the 9mm doesn't have that well defined of a history especially as a man stopper. Now your aim will take out a lot of variables, and as already said a .22lr is a very well known man stopper when hitting a target such as a skull. A girl I know was killed by her $hitty boyfriend with a .22lr to the head. But if my life is on the line, I wanna sling the biggest heaviest bullet I can comfortable. That's why I choose the G23 in 40S&W as my concealed carry weapon. For other reasons then caliber size. But I won't knock anybody who does carry, as like I have said. With the right person behind the trigger even a .22lr is extremely deadly.
If a 9mm was "hot" enough to "cauterize" wounds as it passed through the tissue, then 10mm, .357, .44, heck, even rifle bullets would "cauterize wounds" as well. Sorry, doesn't happen. I've seen 9mm bullet wounds. I'd have to see some science behind this before I would believe it. Now FMJs are known for pushing though tissue and past organs and leaving small wounds that plug up with fat which limits external bleeding. But I'm not buying the whole "cauterizing" thing...
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:04 PM
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I'd find a different instructor in the future. Cauterizing wounds? Never heard that one before! Hahahaha!!! Maybe they were shooting 9mm tracer...
Well, he did instruct firearms shooting at the FBI for over a decade and did the same for the military some years before that. He would have worked with folks with access to coroner's reports where officers were killed. I think I'll stick with him, thank you very much.

http://www.specialtyfirearmstraining.com/about.htm

Supposedly the heat from the friction of the bullets passing clean through the body without hitting solid bone cauterized the wound channel (not the entry or exit).
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