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Old 08-05-2012, 10:10 PM
tyusclan tyusclan is offline
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Originally Posted by AK_guy View Post
I can understand the argument about single action only. If the primer fails to detonate, you should just re-rack the slide and continue to fire. As far as cocked and locked, I did it when I had to opportunity to travel outside of Illinois. It is actually really safe with the grip safety, and there is a firing pin safety in the series 80 1911's. Basically unless the trigger is pulled the firing pin can not move forward.
Now take into account the thumb safety, the grip safety, the firing pin safety, and there is a hammer drop safety. It is an extremely safe gun. If it was prone to negligent discharges people would not still be using it, including the military.
Not trying to flame you, just trying to inform. I love me some 1911's, sadly I don't own one now. My CZ82 is my love affair now.
My head knows everything you just said, but it still gives me the willies. I know that it is a safe gun, it's just me.

I'm certainly no gunsmith, so I may be asking something way out in left field, but I've wondered if there was some way that the original 1911 design could be modified to be DA/SA, and a bar safety added, somewhat like the decocker on the P-series Rugers, but keep the same exterior style and look of the 1911. I know it technically wouldn't be JMB's design, but could be an option for someone that likes the look of the gun, but would prefer to have DA. Then again, I may be committing sacrilege just for mentioning it.
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:11 PM
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If your shots with your 9mm weren't enough to take down your aggressor then your shots with a .45 wouldn't have either. This is coming from the guy that created an epic caliber ****storm a couple months ago in favor of the larger caliber. Seriously though with a handgun you will either have well placed shots that do the job or you won't and the 9mm/.45 choice will not make a difference. That said use whatever makes you feel like you have the edge.
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:15 PM
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The M1911 was designed by John Moses Browning. So was the round.

Need I say more? Was there a better weapons designer for small arms in history? For making a weapon that is FOOLPROOF? I think not.
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcat84 View Post
The M1911 was designed by John Moses Browning. So was the round.

Need I say more? Was there a better weapons designer for small arms in history? For making a weapon that is FOOLPROOF? I think not.
It was revolutionary for its time, no doubt. However, they are certainly not foolproof, and the designer has little to with with the fact they are more prone to failure than other pistols.
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:29 PM
Buck-Ridge Buck-Ridge is offline
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I read about an incident that occurred in the 80s in Illinois. The police cornered an armed man that was high on PCP and when he got out of his car he started shooting at the police. They shot him with their standard issue 9mm pistols and issued ammo. The man was hit 51 times with 9mm ammo and was still returning fire. One of the policeman finally shot him with a 12 gauge slug and killed him.
An important note here is that they were shooting ammo that is much lower quality than the best defense 9mm sold today. After reading this and another similar incident I never wanted a 9. I use either a 357 magnum or a 45 ACP.
I have read some research on handgun stopping power and in police use they claimed 357 magnum has the best result for 1 shot stops. My 45 is more comfortable to shoot and is a smaller gun to carry.
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:44 PM
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.45acp all the way just not in the 1911 DA/SA and SA wheelgun
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:47 PM
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Personally, i own both- Beretta M9A1 and a beautiful Springfield Armory 1911. I feel they both have their place in the rotation.

The Beretta, for me, feels nice in hand, recoils softly, has a pretty good trigger, and will eat anything i can throw at it, including the Wolf Military classic i get from Mills Fleet Farm for $8.49 a box.
It carries nicely, in an IWB holster, but i am a big guy(6'5" 245lbs) and it is sometimes nice to know that i have between 16 and 21 rounds ready in the gun and another 15-20 in the back up magazine.

The 1911 is a completely different animal. It is every bit as reliable with any kind of ammo, including Tula(100% reliability through 750 rounds of various FMJ and JHP ammo) and the feel of a 1911 is a thing of beauty, known only to those that have held and shot one. Highly concealable and with wilson combat 8 round magazines you get 9 rounds plus 8 spares.

For me we are really talking about approximately .10 difference in bullet diameter with fmj loadings. If the rounds are placed properly from either, the problem is solved. 230gr fmj will penetrate approx 30 inches on ballistic gel vs approx 25 inches for 115gr 9mm fmj. If shot placement is bad, neither will do its job. The difference is truly negligible.

I love both calibers whole heartedly and won't give up either, but some find one to be more suitable than the other. If you do, more power to you.


MWD
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck-Ridge View Post
I read about an incident that occurred in the 80s in Illinois. The police cornered an armed man that was high on PCP and when he got out of his car he started shooting at the police. They shot him with their standard issue 9mm pistols and issued ammo. The man was hit 51 times with 9mm ammo and was still returning fire. One of the policeman finally shot him with a 12 gauge slug and killed him.
If someone can take 51 shots of 9mm then it wasn't the caliber that was the problem. Seriously think about what you just said. Do you really think .45 would've made a huge difference here? Maybe 51 shots fired but I don't think anyone could survive 51 shots for any sustainable amount of time unless they were all terrible shots to non vital areas. Hell, even then that should be a lot, A LOT of blood loss. I'd like to see info on the story if you wouldn't mind.
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:32 AM
whirlibird whirlibird is offline
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Both the 9mm and .45 have their place in the survival armory.

My personal choice is and has long been the .45ACP.
I've carried it for work, personal protection, and just plain enjoyment.

After 25 years of use, the 1911 is what works best for me, reliability, accuracy and fit. While I also like and use the 10mm, the .45 is still the best for general use for most people.

I have a couple of 9mm's, they have their place.
And having carried them for work and personal protection, I can see a place for them, the high round count is comforting. However, whenever I pack one, I am not as comfortable as when I carry a .45, and even better a 1911.

Survival doesn't just mean shooting zombies or gang bangers. It may mean shooting an elk or deer that's been hit by your car. Or shooting that angered rattlesnake with a load of snakeshot. In these cases bigger is definitely better.

And when a shot has to be taken indoors or out, a shot from a low pressure round like a .45 does less damage to ones ears than a high pressure round.
I know this all too well.

Pick what works for you, be it 9mm, .45ACP or 8.3mm Munchkin.

And referencing that Illinois shooting, it was the 2nd 12ga slug that stopped the bad guy. I can't find the info on the shooting but if memory serves, he was armed with a 9mm Browning Hi-Power that he couldn't reload, but was trying, because a police bullet had bent the frame. He was also armed with an MP-40. It was the second police 12ga slug that removed the sociopath from our presence.

And as far as aging 9mm loads go and stocking up on what works, the Federal 9BP-LE load, passing 20+ years of service is still one of the best choices for feed reliability, accuracy and power.
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Old 08-06-2012, 02:52 AM
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I use to say that that the 9mmP was not enough gun. So I would talk all my friends in to a 45ACP. But for some people that is too much gun. With the 45ACP the hand grip is bigger and It kicks more. So some people dont like it. So now I say find what you like and what likes you.
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Old 08-06-2012, 03:41 AM
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Comes down to it's still cheaper to buy & stock bulk 9mm FMJ and HP than it is to stock 45 FMJ or JHP.

Add reloading into the equation (which I do when I have the time) and 9mm is still cheaper.

I shoot and stock both.

I reload 45 acp but have components to load 9mm as well.
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck-Ridge View Post
I have read some research on handgun stopping power and in police use they claimed 357 magnum has the best result for 1 shot stops.
1 shot stop analysis starts by throwing out most of the data. More interesting is the failure to stop data:
.45ACP 14%
9mm 13%
Shotgun 12%
.357Magnum/.357SIG 9%
Centerfire Rifle: 9%
http://www.guns.com/forum/general/se...fritz-432.html
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/handgun-stopping-power

9mm had slightly fewer failures to stop than .45ACP, though more rounds were expended to get that result. 9mm comes out looking worse on a number of the stats because more shots were fired in practice, whether the extra shots were needed or not. Many 9mm guns, and shooters, seem to be biased towards rapid fire. And most of it was ball ammo, not hollow point. The ballistic advantage of .45 seems to be slightly outweighed by the rapid fire of 9mm. Either it takes too long to bring the .45ACP hand cannon back on target or .45ACP users are overconfident or they take too long to aim or they wait to see what effect the first shot had before firing another or they run out of ammo before dropping a determined attacker. 9mm had fewer failures to stop than the other handgun rounds except for .357Mag/SIG.

Also, if a small bullet didn't hit a vital area, a second bullet appears to improve the odds more than upgrading to a bigger bullet.

Rifle and shotgun had lower numbers of shots fired, high one stop shots, high fatal percentage of shots, and high percentage incapacitated by a single head or torso hit compared to handgun rounds yet it seems that the .357 got the job done as often as the rifle and more often than the shotgun.

0.22 had the lowest number of rounds until incapacitation but dismal performance on failure to incapacitate. Part of that seems to be that on average, they did not get off enough shots which tends to inflate the efficacy per shot but also inflate the ultimate failure rate.

If you go to ballistics by the inch and look at the muzzle energy graphs, you see that for the same length pistol barrel, .357 had more energy.

It was noted elsewhere that humans were among the easiest and hardest animals to stop. Animals normally do not have psychological stops - they will run unless they are physically incapacitated, while humans will very often lay down/surrender after the first hit with anything more powerful than a spitball to avoid getting shot again but a determined attacker can be very hard to stop.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:01 AM
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I have a 1911 and taurus pt145 in 45acp. I like the way 45 shoots too. It has more of a push than a snap and sounds like a big bass animal WUF rather than a sonic yip. the pt145 is my designated carry gun, light weight and 10+1 of 45 is comforting. Only complaint is it is a bit wide and boxy for conceal carry.

Talking SHTF I stack deeper on 22LR, 7.62x39 and 12 gauge buck and bird shot than I do pistol ammo.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:14 AM
BoycottTheDay BoycottTheDay is offline
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My lack of experience dictates what i have,

simple wheelguns™ and my 1927 are no brainers for me to operate.

So they remain my first choice for weapons that are meant for my last chance.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:22 AM
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i also have both, to include a bunch of other pistol calibers as well.

i got the 92fs after i already bought a cx4 storm in 9mm so the mag compatability was a plus, and my wife would have a much easier time with a pistol caliber carbine than a rifle... mec-gar 18 round mags fit flush and were a good price at the time.

the 1911 is just classic, my first 45 was a ruger p90 i purchased when i turned 21... it is now my brother in law's and i have a taurus pt1911 which has treated me very well especially for the initial cost.

philosophically i am not a big pistol guy... i train with them and am pretty decent, but they absolutely are not the first thing i reach for when something happens... i have a kel tec su16c in my trunk and generally do not have a backup pistol unless i am concealing at that point in time (.380 in summer, .357 sig in winter... i do not carry everyday as i take a risk based approach depending upon my destination)... so in the grand scheme of things, pistol caliber does not weigh heavily on my mind
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:35 AM
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I have both but my 9mm holds 20 rounds!
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:43 AM
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I'll just leave this here....
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:55 AM
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Now that I am re-loading 45 makes more sence to me now. Make a couple 100 rds of 45 yesterday and that pile really look good.
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Old 08-06-2012, 10:03 AM
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There is a big difference between the old 38 colt and the 38 special. There is still more difference between the 9mm and the 38 special. Comparing the 38 colt to the 9mm is not a valid comparison.
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Old 08-06-2012, 10:22 AM
Jstwaiting Jstwaiting is offline
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Have shot 357 wheel guns for years and am most efficient with them. Thought I should upgrade and got a 40 SIG and then an M&P 40. Both are nice guns but never got as accurate or steady with them as the wheeler. When I finally got a Kimber in 45 - they both went into storage.
Usually have the 4" 357 with me as I am most confident with that. Once I am as good with the Kimber - it will be a toss up.
Agree with everyone - the 1911's just have a feel to them and I don't find the 45 too harsh to shoot.
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