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75K views 106 replies 66 participants last post by  LuniticFringeInc 
#1 ·
In the 1980s there were three events that helped influence my opinion on handguns and handgun calibers.

#1 – My dad and I were having a discussion on a revolver vs a pistol. Even though a revolver holds fewer rounds then a pistol, my dad liked the revolver over pistol the due to the reliability of the revolver. There was nothing to jam with the revolver like there is with a pistol.

My dad worked as a Jasper County Texas deputy sheriff during the 1970s. Even though I greatly respect his opinion, I feel that his opinion might have been influenced by organizations like the FBI who used a service revolver instead of a pistol like the 1911.

The service revolver my dad used was a S&W model 66 combat magnum. When I graduated high school in 1986, mom and dad bought me a model 66 combat magnum just like dads.

There were two major sticking points on the revolver vs pistol discussion my dad and I had. Those points where the effectiveness of the 357 magnum, and the reliability of the revolver.

If you are going to use a handgun, make sure its reliable and make sure the cartridge is large enough to get the job done.

Remington 1911 R1 and Beretta 92FS



#2 – When I was around 16 or maybe 17 years old, a buddy of mine and I went over to a mutual friends house. The mutual friend brought us out to a field where we shot a 1911 45 acp. The 1911 belong to the friends dad. We had permission to be in the field, and the parent knew we had a handgun.

That was the first time I had ever shot a pistol, much less a 1911.

Shooting the 1911 was “enjoyable”. I do not how else to describe it. The recoil was not excessive, the trigger pull was just right, fast reloading as compared to a revolver.

#3 – Military testing in the 1980s as they were looking for a new handgun.

As the military test were being done, I picked up every gun magazine that talked about the test. I just happened to have had a subscription to Shooting Times. I remember getting the magazine in the mail that had “Beretta won the war” on the front cover. A good bit of that issue was dedicated to the military testing.

As the military was looking for a 9mm pistol, there was always the 9mm vs 45 acp debate going on in the background. People from both sides of the debate voiced their opinion, then there was the FBI ballistics test, how the 9mm and the 45 acp preformed in times of war.

There was one major difference between the military test and the civilian test, the military can not use hollow point ammunition. While the civilian market was studying the effective of different types of hollow point ammunition, the military was focusing on the reliability of various handguns.

The military testing boiled down to the same thing my dad told me – effectiveness of the caliber and reliability of the firearm.

Beretta 92FS

I bought my Beretta 92fs in January of 1989. Over the past 23+ years, the pistol has been a proven performer. Some of my buddies and I used to go to a local sand pit where we would shoot over 2,000 rounds of 9mm in a single day. The Beretta 92fs shot everything, and I mean everything.

The only type of ammunition that did not work well was CCI blazer aluminum case. For some reason those rounds liked to turn vertical in the magazine. If the magazine had an anti-tilt follower, the rounds turning vertical in the magazine would not have been an issue.

The military test greatly influenced my decision to buy a Beretta 92fs. When the time came to buy, it was either the Beretta or the Sig Sauer, I went with the Beretta.

As much as I like my Beretta, I also have one major complaint, and that is the trigger. The trigger absolutely sucks. The first round (double action) is ok, the second round (single action) is terrible. The trigger feels like it has a mile of slack.

Overall, for the past 23+ years I have been very happy with the performance of the Beretta 92fs.

I have to admit, ever since I decided to go with the 9mm I have had doubts about its performance. During the 1980s and 1990s there were various stories of heavy clothing that prevented the 9mm from achieving optimal penetration.

During the Moro Rebellion, the 38 long colt proved to be ineffective in stopping a charging Moro warrior. The inability of the 38 long colt has always been in the back of my head. How effective would the 9mm be in stopping a charging meth head?

Shortly after various police agencies adopted the 9mm in the 1980s, stories started coming out about police officers having to shoot people on PCP several times.

From the Moro warrior and PCP examples, I had doubts about how effective the 9mm would be in stopping looters during a SHTF situation.

Remington 1911 R1

My wife bought me a Remington 1911 R1 for my birthday. Ever since I shot a 1911 back in the mid-1980s I have always wanted one. I am not getting any younger, so why not go ahead and buy a 1911?

Around 15 years ago I bought a Ruger P90, which is chambered in 45 acp. About 10 years my wife and I got into a financial bind, and I had to sell the Ruger P90 to pay some bills. The P90 is a nice pistol, but its no 1911.

There is just something about the 1911. It feels right in the hand, recoil is not excessive, its easy to field strip, its reliable,,, what is there not to like?

One of the things that makes the 9mm comparable the the 45 acp is how well the 9mm hollow points perform. If you remove the hollow points from the equation, what you are left with is 45 acp making a bigger hole then 9mm.

If you are going to sling a chunk of lead down range, why not sling the biggest lead you can find?

I find comfort shooting a 220 grain bullet, as compared to a 115 grain bullet.

There is just something about the 1911 that feels “right”, if that makes sense to you.

Magazine Capacity

One of the big debates between the 9mm and the 45 acp is the magazine capacity. Would you rather have 15 rounds of 9mm or 7 or 8 rounds of 45 acp?

If magazine capacity should be the deciding factor, why did so maybe law enforcement agencies carry 6 shot revolvers after the 1911 was introduced? When the 1911 was introduced, and proven in world War I, why didn’t all law enforcement agencies switch over to the 1911 for the extra rounds?

One of the reasons why I originally picked the 9mm over the 45 acp is because of the 15 round magazine. I have to admit that I like having 15 rounds over 7 or 8 rounds.

Should magazine capacity be the deciding factor over cartridge performance?

Stockpiling Ammunition

From a survivalist point of view, while stockpiling ammunition for SHTF / TEOTWAWKI,its important to stockpile what works not only in your firearm, but also what works in your buddies firearm.

Lets say that some kind of long term SHTF / TEOTWAWKI situation happens. You bug out to your Bug Out Location. A couple of weeks later some relatives or friends of the family show up. The guest bring whatever food, water, supplies and firearms they have. Now you and your buddies are going to have to share the ammunition, just like all other supplies.

Its the classic debate, 9mm VS 45 acp. Some people skip the debate all together and go with a 40S&W. I do not care for the snap recoil of the 40, so I am staying with either the 9mm or the 45 acp.

We mentioned earlier that the 9mm relies on hollow point ammunition to match the performance of the 45 acp. Why should I buy expensive hollow point 9mm when I can just buy 45 acp FMJ?

Share your opinion in the 9mm vs 45 acp debate. Which one is your primary sidearm, and why?
 
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#33 ·
I have a 1911 and taurus pt145 in 45acp. I like the way 45 shoots too. It has more of a push than a snap and sounds like a big bass animal WUF rather than a sonic yip. the pt145 is my designated carry gun, light weight and 10+1 of 45 is comforting. Only complaint is it is a bit wide and boxy for conceal carry.

Talking SHTF I stack deeper on 22LR, 7.62x39 and 12 gauge buck and bird shot than I do pistol ammo.
 
#35 ·
i also have both, to include a bunch of other pistol calibers as well.

i got the 92fs after i already bought a cx4 storm in 9mm so the mag compatability was a plus, and my wife would have a much easier time with a pistol caliber carbine than a rifle... mec-gar 18 round mags fit flush and were a good price at the time.

the 1911 is just classic, my first 45 was a ruger p90 i purchased when i turned 21... it is now my brother in law's and i have a taurus pt1911 which has treated me very well especially for the initial cost.

philosophically i am not a big pistol guy... i train with them and am pretty decent, but they absolutely are not the first thing i reach for when something happens... i have a kel tec su16c in my trunk and generally do not have a backup pistol unless i am concealing at that point in time (.380 in summer, .357 sig in winter... i do not carry everyday as i take a risk based approach depending upon my destination)... so in the grand scheme of things, pistol caliber does not weigh heavily on my mind
 
#40 ·
Have shot 357 wheel guns for years and am most efficient with them. Thought I should upgrade and got a 40 SIG and then an M&P 40. Both are nice guns but never got as accurate or steady with them as the wheeler. When I finally got a Kimber in 45 - they both went into storage.
Usually have the 4" 357 with me as I am most confident with that. Once I am as good with the Kimber - it will be a toss up.
Agree with everyone - the 1911's just have a feel to them and I don't find the 45 too harsh to shoot.
 
#41 ·
Wheelgun vs auto
9mm vs .45

I am so glad you brought these points up since no one has ever covered these issues before and we need a good final decision on both topics!

I am sure this thread will eleminate all the myth, bring up new facts that have been unknown for the past 100 years and force a mandatory distruction of one pistol type or the other and force the ammo manufactureres to stop producing which-ever foul and hatefull ammo type that is decided to be useless.
 
#43 ·
With proper ammo choices, effectiveness between the top handgun cartridges is very close. I switched over to the .45 ACP for one reason and one reason only. It's the most effective *low pressure* cartridge. Anyone who has had to touch off a round in an enclosed area understands my reasoning.
 
#46 ·
I am confident comfortable, and experienced in shooting my 1911 and that is the gun I choose to sit on my nightstand, and to carry.

As my friend said, "We can stand here and talk about this all day but in the end all it ends up being is just that....TALK!"
 
#47 ·
I hate 9mm vs .45 debates, for the specific reason that I've seen and know of people that have been shot by both rounds, and they are still alive. A neighbor that took his life with a single shot from a .22lr would say .22lr is a good man stopper.

If you think it matters what round you have in your chamber if you can't hit the person, then you failed before you started.
 
#51 ·
Mine is a browning hipower. I bought this pistol because I liked the pistol and this particular model took a buttstock. I believe stats tell us the .45 is a superior fight stopper. However, there is only a little bit of difference between the two if you use the better 9mm ammo. On the flipside of this is the simple fact some 85% of all people shot with pistols in the us survive the shooting. All pistol calibers are lousy killers.

Years ago I knew an honest to god mercenary. He told me the only thing a pistol was good for was to buy you time to get to your shotgun. I think he had a point.
 
#52 ·
My first gun I ever shot in 1989 when I was 14 was a Colt Gov Model 1911 MKIV Series 70. It has always been my gun to have. My Eleanor, my holy grail. Beginning of last year a mate of mine sold his 99.9% mint Gov Model Series 70. The gun is a late 70's early 80's Colt. I jumped on it like a bear on a picnic basket. If I must have only 1 pistol it would be this gun I will keep. I'm a huge 1911 fan and I think the platform works very well. It has served the US armed forces very well. There are newer, better designs I agree. Like most guns it’s not a perfect design but it’s a good design.

In South Africa our crime is violent, attackers are usually between 4 and 6 bad guys and they also stay and fight. All of them will usually be armed. This makes the 1911 not the best suitable handgun for SD in SA. I do however sometimes EDC my 1911. I like to wear a piece of history on my hip now and then. When I do I always carry my Colt with 8 round WC or STI mags and I carry 4 extra mags in Comp Tac mag carriers on my week side. I def don't feel "under gunned" at all when I use this setup.

I don’t really much care for the .45 vs 9mm debate. In SA most people that gets killed with handguns are most likely shot with a 9mm ball round. So 9mm works. Even with ball ammo. The uneducated BG that are busy shooting at you don’t worry about silly debates he is there to kill you and there is a big chance he will succeed. I also don’t care about .40. I have a 9mm guns and a .45. I don’t want to complicate things and get another calibre. It doesn’t make sense to me. In the end buy what you like and shoot what you want each of us will have our own preferences.
 
#53 ·
92fs. Mine is a Taurus, not a Beretta.

My reasoning is that the weapon is perfectly balanced. I can rapid fire the pistol and the barrel always drops right back where it was when I took the previous shot. So, not only can I fire faster with more rounds, I can put those rounds on target (in nearly the exact same spot). I have other 9mms and none of them do this. I can shoot fast with them, but they do not have the perfect balance that the 92fs has. I have to adjust after every shot. I really don't have to that with the 92fs. It just goes right back where it is supposed to go. I can drop 3 shots on target (or empty a mag) at lightning speed.

More reasons:
It will shoot any ammo I put in it with no problems.
I have fired 10s of thousands of rounds through it and it still looks and fires like new.
I can fire it fairly well one handed if need be.
The grip is perfect for me.
17 round mags.
It is aesthetically pleasing to me.
Ammo is cheap.


I have shot 1911s (some really nice ones). Not knocking them. They just aren't the thing for me.
 
#66 ·
Paladin, i never said it Cauterized the wounds, but the story he said was true. I'm sure if you go to google and look it up you could quickly find something about it. But I've read several stories of 9mm even with today's JHP still not doing the trick. Now I'm
Not saying there Cor Bons or any other that I can particularly remember. But none the less there are stories, now there are also those same stories with .40S&W, 357mag, 44mag and .45acp. But for my particular taste a 9mm isnt enough where my G23 in .40S&W is. For you 9mm may be enough, my next carry gun that I'm going to be buying will be a .380 bodyguard. But I'm hoping my aim will be sufficient enough to do what it needs to do God forbid if I ever need it.
 
#77 ·
Remember that one article a few years back where an officer put 13-14 230gr Gold Dot .45 rounds in a guy and the man continued to attack him with aimed fire from a long-gun until he shot him in the eye?

Handguns just suck. The .45 and 9mm suck about equally, I think, so I pick the one that allows me to launch MORE suck.
 
#68 ·
Shane- No, you didn't. I was just responding to you because you were backing up his post. Of course there are numerous cases of failures to incapacitate. But they are not because 9mm sucks and .45 is so superior. Placement and number of penetrating wounds is what incapacitates.

I highly recommend folks read some of Dr Martin Fackler's studies in wound ballistics. Caliber is relatively insignificant when it comes to stopping a threat...
 
#72 ·
And I totally agree with you, shot placement is much more important then the size of the bullet. That's why I said even a .22lr can be an effective man stopper. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be carrying a .22lr pistol for CCW any time soon. I'm not saying the 9mm won't stop a bad guy, but a .45acp is statistically a better man stopper then the 9mm. I don't care what DR says that the 9mm is ballistically better or just as good as a .45acp. When it comes down to it, numbers don't lie.

But in the end you should deffinately carry what you believe is better for you. And what you prefer more, if you believe the 9mm offers you a better advantage then so be it. But as I said, I'm gonna pick the largest caliber I can sling lead out of safely and effectively.
 
#69 ·
I like the 9mm. It works about as well as a .45 and I have 2-3x as many rounds in the magazine in a smaller weapon that allows faster follow-up shots. NO data exists to support top-quality 9mm ammunition being any measurable amount less effective than top-quality .45ACP ammunition. Certainly not enough to offset the massive difference in capacity and the slighter difference in controlability.

Dr Roberts carries a 9mm.
Evan Marshall carries a 9mm.

Seems like they both agree on something, and they are both pretty into things that go "bang" and poke holes in things that leak red...

Both of them have far more experience than anyone I am aware of on this board with said topic, as well, both from the "BTDT" stance, and the "Seen/done the studies of the results of incidents, lab, etc" stance.

I will piggy-back on their achievements of learning.
 
#70 ·
I like the 9mm. It works about as well as a .45 and I have 2-3x as many rounds in the magazine in a smaller weapon that allows faster follow-up shots. NO data exists to support top-quality 9mm ammunition being any measurable amount less effective than top-quality .45ACP ammunition. Certainly not enough to offset the massive difference in capacity and the slighter difference in controlability.

Dr Roberts carries a 9mm.
Evan Marshall carries a 9mm.
^^^^ This !!! :thumb:
 
#71 ·
I'm a combat veteran (infantry) and have never seen a round cauterize a wound as it passed through a body. I have seen where a round has penetrated tissue without striking any major blood vessels and the wound stopped bleeding due to the body's natural clotting ability. Ammo does not cauterize as it passes through tissue. Period. Soft tissue does not provide ample friction for cauterization to occur. What this guy may have seen was a coroner's report of a victim having a GSW from a close proximity where the muzzle flash possibly entered into the wound channel which MAY have caused a small degree of cauterization. I personally saw and provided 1st aid to an Iraqi soldier, who we shot the day before, limp his way to our position (under a flag of surrender) that had a GSW to his inner leg that had stopped bleeding. One could have (incorrectly) assumed that the round that passed through this guys leg cauterized the wound channel since the bleeding had stopped. That is simply not the case. Him applying a pressure bandage immediately after being shot coupled with the body's natural clotting ability is what caused the bleeding to stop, not cauterization.

Getting back on topic, I prefer my XD45 compact. I switched from the 9mm to the .45 ACP for the simple fact of bigger bullet = bigger holes. My last trip to the range I shot at a human size target at 50 yards with my XD. Although the round isn't very accurate at that distance, I was able to consistently hit the target. One round struck the lumber used in the target stand and actually passed completely through a 2X6. Granted, a round passing completely through 1.5" of lumber isn't very impressive but for a hollow point fired from 50 yards away from a 3.5" barrel to retain enough energy to pass through that much lumber is enough for me to not want to be shot with it! I would like to see if a 9mm (hollow point or ball) fired at that distance could pass through the 2X6 as well. Seeing as how I sold all my 9mm pistols I can't perform that test any time soon.
 
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