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Old 07-19-2016, 05:32 PM
patdaly patdaly is offline
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I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 9 and modern projectiles.

I feel better with a .45 and modern projectiles.

Something for you capacity freaks to consider.

Take 2 1911 mags and stack them up against 1 of your double stacks.

Yea, I have to reload once more, but I can do that faster than you think.

It is also easier for me to conceal the thinner weapon and multiple magazines....

In the end, it is whatever floats your boat.
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Old 07-19-2016, 05:33 PM
whirlibird whirlibird is offline
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Having had the displeasure to dispose of far too many road injured critters over a ten year span, I know what I don't like.

Having had the opportunity to be privy to autopsy reports and shooting investigations I have my own preferences, sometimes in agreent with the results, sometimes not.

But to put it plainly, stuck with ball ammo, I want a .45.

With modern hi tech ammo, I could tolerate a 9mm, but would prefer the choice to begin with a .4. In reality the difference between the two is minimal at best.

Is there a definable reason why I choose what I do? No, just personal preference and 'feelings'.
However I will say I shoot a .45 better, 30+ years of use has me dialed into it better.

My personal all around choice is a .45, for almost everything, in one form or another. However I EDC carry a .40 for the reduced size and capacity.
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Old 07-19-2016, 05:37 PM
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With modern defensive ammo, there is little real difference between the two as far as wound cavity and such. The FBI is actually switching back to 9mm.

Any caliber from 9mm-.500 magnum will do the job as long as you do your job and hit the target
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Old 07-19-2016, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delirious Nomad View Post
I knew when I started this thread that regardless of new technology and better ammo being available.
That the old school thought is "bigger is always better" is shared by a lot of people

Again I have nothing against 45 or 1911s. This was a serious thread about today's ammo.

And I have done some testing and right now its inconclusive.
I'm glad to see you edited that post from "an out dated way of thinking". It seems I have offended you & that was not my intention intention. In post #4 you said


"Stopping power is what I'm talking about. Most guys I know just buy basic ammo.
My question really was do you think with today's self defense ammo available
That a 9mm round could perform just has good or better for stopping power against an assailant than a "standard 45 ammo"."

Now if you're comparing modern day +P expanding 9mm ammo to standard old school non expanding ball load FMJ' .45acp then you might get close to making the same size hole in a persons body with a 9mm. But apples to oranges. Put the same in both & the 9mm doesn't match up.
You stated this is about stopping power, big holes are your stopping power. Permanent Wound Channel. It allows oxygen to rush into the body & blood to rush out. Hence the reason the .45 has a long reputation as "The Man Stopper". All things being equal the 9mm is no match to the .45.

In the old days cops carried .45 & .357, they killed a lot of bad guys & some innocent ones from stray rounds and pass thru shots. The gov adopted 9mm because it is a less lethal round. Once they figured out that it took too many shots they switched to the .40 . Which killed soo many black criminals that riots have become a sport in this country. So after Ferguson & Bsltimore the decided to switch back to a less lethal caliber in an effort to minimize cops killing people so easily. Which all comes down to this;
Even with today's modern ammo you chances of surviving a gun shot wound are better with a smaller diameter projectile.

Where modern 9mm rounds differ;
Early 9mm rounds were designed not to pass thru a body with enough energy left to kill an innocent bystander nor was a stray round suppose to pass thru an exterior house wall with enough energy left to kill an innocent bystander. Lotsa people died from these two actions when cops carried larger calibers. Modern day 9mm will do both. But it's still no .45.

Last edited by OneLostCowboy; 07-19-2016 at 05:45 PM.. Reason: Spelling
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Old 07-19-2016, 06:02 PM
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Oh,
You commented on my reference to Ford vs Chevy & since I don't know if you're a car guy, I'll explain.
I'm also a Ford guy & in the automotive world of horsepower, Hotrods, 4x4's & NASCAR, the age old question is which one is better. It's the ultimate argument. In fire arms it's the same age old question when discussing 9 vs 45.
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Old 07-19-2016, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delirious Nomad View Post
Just found this. Looks interesting :-)


http://ruger.com/micros/ammo/index.html?r=y
Id have to see how it performs in tissue and not gel, before Id trust those. hydraulic displacement is nothing more than what FMJ does which is make a hole and pretty much it
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Old 07-19-2016, 06:37 PM
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I would simply say, stop worrying about caliber, and strive to be as realistically proficient as possible with whatever it is you choose to carry. Caliber is irrelevant if youre not hitting what needs hit, and doing so, quickly, accurately, and without thought.

I always have to wonder when you hear people say they shot something and it didnt work as they expected, if they were doing the round proud with their shooting, and giving it its best shot at doing so. You have to hit the kill switches to make things work. Some seem to have this foolish notion that if they carry a wonder round, all it will take, is a hit somewhere on the target to end things.

If youre playing "games", and have to follow certain rules for that game, then you choose what works best for that game, since thats what its about. That game really has no bearing on what reality is, and in many respects, is actually detrimental to real world encounters as youre training yourself to win the game, not the fight.

What wins the fight is, good shooting, and constant shooting until the problem is solved. What gives you the best shot at doing that, would be my choice.

I carried single stack .45's daily for longer than many have been alive. Grew up in that age, heard all the stories, and bought into the myth. Started doing my own random and unscientific testing back in the late 70's, and the more I went, the more I realized that the .45acp wasnt the Sword of Todd that so many swore it was/is.

As things progressed, I also realized that more in the gun is better than less, and having more onboard ammo is never a bad thing. Running out when you still need more is never a good thing.

Being able to shoot quickly and accurately, from any manner necessary, and continue to do so, until the threat is over, is really the only logical answer. This isnt a game, and there are no rules. So why limit yourself to rule or emotional based things?
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Old 07-19-2016, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneLostCowboy View Post
Oh,
You commented on my reference to Ford vs Chevy & since I don't know if you're a car guy, I'll explain.
I'm also a Ford guy & in the automotive world of horsepower, Hotrods, 4x4's & NASCAR, the age old question is which one is better. It's the ultimate argument. In fire arms it's the same age old question when discussing 9 vs 45.
I understand guy. No hard feelings I miss read your post.
But it does back to "bigger is better" I don't really believe that.
A 9mm with say speer gold dot and a well placed shot to the chest and its over?
A 45 and the same shot? Yeah but that's not my point.

Can I carry with confidence a 9mm and stand up with knockdown power? And end the treat with minimal shots with today's ammo?
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Old 07-19-2016, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Can I carry with confidence a 9mm and stand up with knockdown power? And end the treat with minimal shots with today's ammo?
Knock down power is a myth.

It simply takes however many shots as it takes, and you keep shooting until it requires no more. Might take one, might take 10, whos to say?
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Old 07-19-2016, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delirious Nomad View Post
I understand guy. No hard feelings I miss read your post.
But it does back to "bigger is better" I don't really believe that.
A 9mm with say speer gold dot and a well placed shot to the chest and its over?
A 45 and the same shot? Yeah but that's not my point.

Can I carry with confidence a 9mm and stand up with knockdown power? And end the treat with minimal shots with today's ammo?
Yes sir, you can.
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Old 07-19-2016, 07:10 PM
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Here's my EDC




5 Glock 33 and 3 17 round mags,safariland holster. I hope I have enough ammo :-)
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Old 07-20-2016, 07:35 AM
steve marshall steve marshall is online now
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In the old days it was simple, .45. Why .45 you might ask, because they didn't make .46.
Ball in .45 worked better than ball in 9MM.

Nowadays there are magic bullets in every caliber even the lowly .25. If your main concern is expansion, simply pick any of the following: 9MM, .357 Sig, 40 S&W or .45 with the name Critical Defense, Gold Dot, Golden Dot or HST on the box. If your main concern is capacity go with a 9MM Glock or FN. I'm sure I forgot a name or two.

My choice is Glock 21. My small hands, contrary to anecdotals, are a perfect fit. I have a 13 round magazine and finally, as I wear t-shirts year round, the pistol carries in my front jean/shorts pocket and is covered by my untucked shirt during summer. In winter it goes into my jacket pocket upside down. I carry Remington 185GR. Golden Saber +P.

Now some would opine it's not especially concealable. That would depend on your sartorial preferences, mine work. Some would say ammunition count is low vs. 9MM. True, I could carry a Glock 17 but then it doesn't fit my hand as well and it sure beats out Shields and Kahrs and a host of others. Then there is split times. Really? I've never nor will I likely ever be good enough to worry about such.

What it boiled down to for me, was handgun fit, whether or not I could conceal and good ammunition. 9MM works, .357 SIG works, .40 S&W works and .45 ACP works all if good ammunition is used.
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Old 07-20-2016, 09:01 AM
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Even the little .22WMR gets a boost with Critical Defense ammunition.
30 rounds in a light weight Kel-Tec PMR-30 ain't bad.

http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-...tical-Defense/
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Old 07-20-2016, 10:46 AM
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A 9mm 115 grain hollowpoint at 1300 fps or better does more tissue damage than a 45 acp. But the kinetic energy of that big ball just makes "em fall.....
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Old 07-20-2016, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve marshall View Post
In the old days it was simple, .45. Why .45 you might ask, because they didn't make .46.
Ball in .45 worked better than ball in 9MM.

Nowadays there are magic bullets in every caliber even the lowly .25. If your main concern is expansion, simply pick any of the following: 9MM, .357 Sig, 40 S&W or .45 with the name Critical Defense, Gold Dot, Golden Dot or HST on the box. If your main concern is capacity go with a 9MM Glock or FN. I'm sure I forgot a name or two.

My choice is Glock 21. My small hands, contrary to anecdotals, are a perfect fit. I have a 13 round magazine and finally, as I wear t-shirts year round, the pistol carries in my front jean/shorts pocket and is covered by my untucked shirt during summer. In winter it goes into my jacket pocket upside down. I carry Remington 185GR. Golden Saber +P.

Now some would opine it's not especially concealable. That would depend on your sartorial preferences, mine work. Some would say ammunition count is low vs. 9MM. True, I could carry a Glock 17 but then it doesn't fit my hand as well and it sure beats out Shields and Kahrs and a host of others. Then there is split times. Really? I've never nor will I likely ever be good enough to worry about such.

What it boiled down to for me, was handgun fit, whether or not I could conceal and good ammunition. 9MM works, .357 SIG works, .40 S&W works and .45 ACP works all if good ammunition is used.
Doesn't the 17 and 21 have the same frame?
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Old 07-20-2016, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rc508abn View Post
Doesn't the 17 and 21 have the same frame?
The 17 frame is thinner & slightly shorter, and the barrel is shorter.
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Old 07-20-2016, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H2OMAN View Post
The 17 frame is thinner & slightly shorter, and the barrel is shorter.
I thought the 40 had the same width frame as the 9mm. I fired both side by side and couldn't tell the difference.

Last edited by rc508abn; 07-20-2016 at 12:31 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 07-20-2016, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Now my belief is with today's ammo that you can have that stopping power.
I use Speer Gold Dot,Hornady's critical defense and Federal Premium HST.
Well if small magic bullets are truly magic one would believe that bigger magic bullets would be more magical.

So it comes down to capacity and it's role in a gun fight, 7 and above is cool with me and 14 would be gravy, especially if they're .40S&W
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Old 07-20-2016, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by petergunn View Post
Well if small magic bullets are truly magic one would believe that bigger magic bullets would be more magical.
yes they are.
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Old 07-20-2016, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rc508abn View Post
I thought the 40 had the same width frame as the 9mm. I fired both side by side and couldn't tell the difference.
Look here & compare https://us.glock.com/products/all
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