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Old 05-26-2017, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by DCMan View Post
"But adequate penetration is necessary to insure stopping the threat."

- HappyinID


...is it really?
yes, it is, unless a psychological stop is what is effected, where someone DECIDES to stop.

Large rock forcibly applied to the knee of the attacker.
Good solid baseball bat forcibly applied to any part of the attacker.
Nylon bag filled with lots of lead pellets, fired from a shotgun.

Do any of these penetrate the body?
No they do not, but they do offer a high degree of shock value to the attacker.
Enough so, that one may either escape the situation or gain the upper hand, in....what was that you wrote?....oh, yes...

STOPPING THE THREAT

The fact that you don't understand what a bullet does upon impact shows me that...

1) You don't what the **** you're talking about to begin with

...and...

2) You're just trolling this thread in order to...
  • a) Attempt to get someone's goat
  • b) Keep a thread running past its usefulness.

Either way, I'm ending our conversation.
It's becoming circular and no longer serves a purpose.
I'm not into either.
Have a nice day.


DCman
Are you trolling, or are you actually serious? Your post...it's all wrong. I would address each part separately, but all of it is worthless drivel and inaccurate presumptions of someone who has never seen the results of, or been in, a violent confrontation, or seen blood painting the floors of an ER from a multiple GSW victim who is still violently fighting, etc. Never seen someone HIT MY A DAMN CAR walking around in their ER. In short, I cannot possibly believe that your understanding of physical trauma comes from any other source than your own mental masturbations as postulated above.

Experience in the real world... go get some.

Point blank. Beanbag COM. Happy guy in a good mood, no meth, cocaine, or etoh on board. He could have quite happily gone over and stabbed the shooter, even still, had that been his plan.


Hear the crack of that bat "hitting the attacker anywhere" at 0:15 or so in video? He surely doesn't look disabled, does he? Nah...

You're ignorant, you're insulting people who have actually seen what you're running off at the keyboard about, and you're going to remain an ignorant troll until you either listen to those who have it, or go get your own real world experiences on the matter.

Last edited by MikeK; 05-26-2017 at 03:41 PM.. Reason: Edited quoted post for language
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Old 05-26-2017, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCMan View Post
"But adequate penetration is necessary to insure stopping the threat."

- HappyinID


...is it really?

Large rock forcibly applied to the knee of the attacker.
Good solid baseball bat forcibly applied to any part of the attacker.
Nylon bag filled with lots of lead pellets, fired from a shotgun.

Do any of these penetrate the body?
No they do not, but they do offer a high degree of shock value to the attacker.
Enough so, that one may either escape the situation or gain the upper hand, in....what was that you wrote?....oh, yes...

STOPPING THE THREAT

The fact that you don't understand what a bullet does upon impact shows me that...

1) You don't what the **** you're talking about to begin with

...and...

2) You're just trolling this thread in order to...
  • a) Attempt to get someone's goat
  • b) Keep a thread running past its usefulness.

Either way, I'm ending our conversation.
It's becoming circular and no longer serves a purpose.
I'm not into either.
Have a nice day.


DCman
Apparently you're unfamiliar with people having been "shocked", including being shot multiple times, and continuing to fight. Despite good hits, or even unsurvivable wounds. It actually happens more than one might imagine it does. I know several people that killed the guy that shot them, and unfortunately the reverse as well. Some individuals only stop what they're doing when their brain shuts down.

Given your comments, I'm pleased you don't think I know what I'm talking about. I'd be worried if you did.

Cheers.


.

Last edited by MikeK; 05-26-2017 at 03:41 PM.. Reason: Edited quoted post for language
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Old 05-26-2017, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
It was bound to happen sooner or later.

PS. What are your degrees IN? Have you seen actual GSW victims and dealt with keeping them alive? Do you have hands-on experience with GSW's in human beings?

I can promise you, from personal experience as the above, that Courtney is full of crap. Both him and his wife (who "peer-review" each other's work...lol), and so is the "One Shot Stop" junk.

If you want accurate information on terminal ballistics, get a job that deals with people who get shot. Or for the next best thing, Fackler and Dr Roberts provide great information based on real-world data.
Thank you for your reply. I do not have hands-on experience with any of the areas you mentioned. My degrees are in the areas of social sciences and Theology. I was trained to shoot by an instructor at the San Bernardino County Sheriffs Academy who was also his departments armorer and a very close personal friend. I also came from a large family of Marines, and my step father retired as a Marine after 38 years and 10 months. I worked as a civilian contractor on the largest Marine base in America and when doing full time ministry work on and off the base I pastored a Church full of Marines and police from multiple departments. To say that the guys (military and police) and lady's in my social and peer group were very opinionated would be putting it mild. They spent a lot of time talking to me as a counselor and opening up and telling me personal stories. It was difficult to watch a grown man break and cry like a baby because of his experiences. The oldest man was a WW II Army vet. He was in tanks and broke down and cried as he explained how his tank was hit by a German 88, and though injured, he was the only survivor. After all those years he still couldn't control his emotions.

Not all of these people had combat experience but many of them did. My instructor for the hand gun was involved in several shootings and finally retired because of injuries (he never told me that, but close personal friends did. He never talked about it). One day I decided to ask him about the two incidents where he took someone's life. He basically told me the details, and when I asked (I know, I shouldn't have, but I was young (30) and dumb. Now I am old and dumb!) when I asked "What happened then? He replied "I killed the son of a b_tch" and he walked away. I never brought it up again.

Thank you for the tip on Courtney. I know nothing about the man or his wife other than his credentials, which you've got to admit are impressive. I will keep your comments in mind as I look through other information and research. As far as Fackler was concerned I respected him much more than Marshall and followed his writings as much as I could over the years.

The only other sources I have had where from gang banger relatives (they would confess their bad deeds to me). Some of these guy had more combat experience then most cops and many guys in the military. Just a year ago I performed a funeral for my cousin, number 2 man in one of the largest Latino gangs in America. His confessions were among the hardest to hear and I still have trouble with the level of violence he lived. He told me things I can never tell, they are just too horrible.

I appreciate your input, and the time you put in your post. I am not trying to prove one view over another as I have no ax to grind. As I said in an earlier post I have been out of the topic for over tens and been playing "catch up." Thanks again.
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Old 05-26-2017, 04:43 PM
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+1 on Doc Roberts, even though he is "just a dentist." The guy has extensive postings across the internet, and is the go-to guy for federal and local LE, as well as many military units, in terms of ballistics and armor. His work is not hard to find.
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Old 05-26-2017, 05:49 PM
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+1 on Doc Roberts, even though he is "just a dentist." The guy has extensive postings across the internet, and is the go-to guy for federal and local LE, as well as many military units, in terms of ballistics and armor. His work is not hard to find.
Fwiw, I have both Dr. Roberts, and Happy on speed dial, and weigh their input about equally. Take that how you will.
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Old 05-26-2017, 05:55 PM
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Thank you for your reply. I do not have hands-on experience with any of the areas you mentioned. My degrees are in the areas of social sciences and Theology. I was trained to shoot by an instructor at the San Bernardino County Sheriffs Academy who was also his departments armorer and a very close personal friend. I also came from a large family of Marines, and my step father retired as a Marine after 38 years and 10 months. I worked as a civilian contractor on the largest Marine base in America and when doing full time ministry work on and off the base I pastored a Church full of Marines and police from multiple departments. To say that the guys (military and police) and lady's in my social and peer group were very opinionated would be putting it mild. They spent a lot of time talking to me as a counselor and opening up and telling me personal stories. It was difficult to watch a grown man break and cry like a baby because of his experiences. The oldest man was a WW II Army vet. He was in tanks and broke down and cried as he explained how his tank was hit by a German 88, and though injured, he was the only survivor. After all those years he still couldn't control his emotions.

Not all of these people had combat experience but many of them did. My instructor for the hand gun was involved in several shootings and finally retired because of injuries (he never told me that, but close personal friends did. He never talked about it). One day I decided to ask him about the two incidents where he took someone's life. He basically told me the details, and when I asked (I know, I shouldn't have, but I was young (30) and dumb. Now I am old and dumb!) when I asked "What happened then? He replied "I killed the son of a b_tch" and he walked away. I never brought it up again.

Thank you for the tip on Courtney. I know nothing about the man or his wife other than his credentials, which you've got to admit are impressive. I will keep your comments in mind as I look through other information and research. As far as Fackler was concerned I respected him much more than Marshall and followed his writings as much as I could over the years.

The only other sources I have had where from gang banger relatives (they would confess their bad deeds to me). Some of these guy had more combat experience then most cops and many guys in the military. Just a year ago I performed a funeral for my cousin, number 2 man in one of the largest Latino gangs in America. His confessions were among the hardest to hear and I still have trouble with the level of violence he lived. He told me things I can never tell, they are just too horrible.

I appreciate your input, and the time you put in your post. I am not trying to prove one view over another as I have no ax to grind. As I said in an earlier post I have been out of the topic for over tens and been playing "catch up." Thanks again.
Roger that, Dr.Roberts is the most public accessible source that I'd trust who's writingsare easily referenced online, but also note that he does have his own biases. His science is sound and his experiences are compiled from real world traumas, though.

The Courtney stuff is BS. The only realm that it could be argued in is when a projectile passes near enough the spinal column to cause disruption from the tsc, and an instant "drop". You see this sometimes from 5.56, but it is unreliable, and really only shows up with .308 expanding ammunition and larger/faster. However, no "microshockwaves" or whatever are sent to the brain through the vessels. It's a sexy theory, but it just ain't so.

20% or greater blood volume loss, cut the cns, or induce psychological stopping/kill the will to fight.

Those are about the only methods, and that 20% volume is a rough number...it also takes a while. Dropping the BP significantly also works, but when they fall down, the brain is then equal with the heart, and begins perfusing again, and people can sure shoot from the prone, too...so be careful.
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
Roger that, Dr.Roberts is the most public accessible source that I'd trust who's writingsare easily referenced online, but also note that he does have his own biases. His science is sound and his experiences are compiled from real world traumas, though.

The Courtney stuff is BS. The only realm that it could be argued in is when a projectile passes near enough the spinal column to cause disruption from the tsc, and an instant "drop". You see this sometimes from 5.56, but it is unreliable, and really only shows up with .308 expanding ammunition and larger/faster. However, no "microshockwaves" or whatever are sent to the brain through the vessels. It's a sexy theory, but it just ain't so.

20% or greater blood volume loss, cut the cns, or induce psychological stopping/kill the will to fight.

Those are about the only methods, and that 20% volume is a rough number...it also takes a while. Dropping the BP significantly also works, but when they fall down, the brain is then equal with the heart, and begins perfusing again, and people can sure shoot from the prone, too...so be careful.
Thanks for the tip on Dr. Roberts. I just downloaded one of his papers. Very impressive. Somebody mentioned he was "just a dentist" but if you review his credentials they are second to none. For those who may be in the dark, here they are:

"Dr. Roberts is currently on staff at Stanford University Medical Center; this is a large teaching hospital and Level I Trauma center were he performs hospital dentistry and surgery. After completing his residency at Navy Hospital Oakland in 1989 while on active military duty, he studied at the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory at the Letterman Army Institute of Research and became one of the first members of the International Wound Ballistic Association. Since then, he has been tasked with performing military, law enforcement, and privately funded independent wound ballistic testing and analysis. As a U.S. Navy Reserve officer from 1986 to 2008, he served on the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, as well as being a consultant to the Joint FBI-USMC munitions testing program and the TSWG MURG program. He is frequently asked to provide wound ballistic technical assistance to numerous U.S. and allied SOF units and organizations, such as the Canadian Armed Forces Weapons Effect and Protection SIPES TDP. In addition, he has been a technical advisor to the Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners, as well as to a variety of Federal, State, and municipal law enforcement agencies. He has been a sworn Reserve Police Officer in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he now he serves in an LE training role. "
http://www.dlgunsmithing.com/uploads...ry_roberts.pdf

Thanks again.
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Half Moon Tune View Post
Thanks for the tip on Dr. Roberts. I just downloaded one of his papers. Very impressive. Somebody mentioned he was "just a dentist" but if you review his credentials they are second to none. For those who may be in the dark, here they are:

"Dr. Roberts is currently on staff at Stanford University Medical Center; this is a large teaching hospital and Level I Trauma center were he performs hospital dentistry and surgery. After completing his residency at Navy Hospital Oakland in 1989 while on active military duty, he studied at the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory at the Letterman Army Institute of Research and became one of the first members of the International Wound Ballistic Association. Since then, he has been tasked with performing military, law enforcement, and privately funded independent wound ballistic testing and analysis. As a U.S. Navy Reserve officer from 1986 to 2008, he served on the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, as well as being a consultant to the Joint FBI-USMC munitions testing program and the TSWG MURG program. He is frequently asked to provide wound ballistic technical assistance to numerous U.S. and allied SOF units and organizations, such as the Canadian Armed Forces Weapons Effect and Protection SIPES TDP. In addition, he has been a technical advisor to the Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners, as well as to a variety of Federal, State, and municipal law enforcement agencies. He has been a sworn Reserve Police Officer in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he now he serves in an LE training role. "
http://www.dlgunsmithing.com/uploads...ry_roberts.pdf

Thanks again.
I was being a smartass. When people disagree with him, they inevitably vector in on that aspect of his resume. It's such an old joke that his tagline in many forums is "Just a Dentist."

I have the utmost respect for his work, and he is my go-to when I have questions regarding ammunition and armor.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:30 PM
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Sorry! I didn't know you were the one who said it.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:57 PM
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Thanks for the tip on Dr. Roberts. I just downloaded one of his papers. Very impressive. Somebody mentioned he was "just a dentist" but if you review his credentials they are second to none. For those who may be in the dark, here they are:

"Dr. Roberts is currently on staff at Stanford University Medical Center; this is a large teaching hospital and Level I Trauma center were he performs hospital dentistry and surgery. After completing his residency at Navy Hospital Oakland in 1989 while on active military duty, he studied at the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory at the Letterman Army Institute of Research and became one of the first members of the International Wound Ballistic Association. Since then, he has been tasked with performing military, law enforcement, and privately funded independent wound ballistic testing and analysis. As a U.S. Navy Reserve officer from 1986 to 2008, he served on the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, as well as being a consultant to the Joint FBI-USMC munitions testing program and the TSWG MURG program. He is frequently asked to provide wound ballistic technical assistance to numerous U.S. and allied SOF units and organizations, such as the Canadian Armed Forces Weapons Effect and Protection SIPES TDP. In addition, he has been a technical advisor to the Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners, as well as to a variety of Federal, State, and municipal law enforcement agencies. He has been a sworn Reserve Police Officer in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he now he serves in an LE training role. "
http://www.dlgunsmithing.com/uploads...ry_roberts.pdf

Thanks again.
The dentist bit is an inside joke. Industry drama.
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Old 05-27-2017, 01:10 PM
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Roger that, Dr.Roberts is the most public accessible source that I'd trust who's writingsare easily referenced online, but also note that he does have his own biases. His science is sound and his experiences are compiled from real world traumas, though.
Roberts has not only spent 30+ years on his own research, but has associated and collaborated with many others in the wound ballistics field, learning from them and incorporating that data into his own work. Any biases he has are at least well earned.

There are still dozens of legitimate folks actively studying wound ballistics in the field, all over the country and worldwide. Most of the public will never know their names, and never see their data. But the military and LE will continue to benefit from their work, and hopefully the product innovation their work inspires will continue to flow into the commercial market.
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Old 05-27-2017, 01:27 PM
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Again, what type ammo? That's where the new defense ammo available comes in to the conversation
I remember watching "cocaine cowboys" documentary. The coroner for Dade county said the caliber didn't seem to matter as much as how many times a person was shot.
That stuck in my head.
Some of the newer defensive ammo is quite good, others not so much yet still acceptable. I like the Hornady Critical defense ammo in 380 and 9mm and Speer gold dot in 45 ACP. YMMV

Might try TNOutdoors channel on you tube. He's a bit of a jello junkie but his ballistic gelatin test videos are reasonably well done and informative.

I have also heard the comments about the 9mm. I smiled and nod, the laws of physics says otherwise.

The three things defensive pistol ammo has to do reliably is go bang, penetrate deep enough to reach vitals and rapidly expand to transfer the most amount of energy possible.
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Old 05-27-2017, 01:33 PM
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The three things defensive pistol ammo has to do reliably is go bang, penetrate deep enough to reach vitals and rapidly expand to transfer the most amount of energy possible.
If by "transfer energy", you mean cut and destroy as much tissue, vessels and organs in the wound path as possible, that's correct.

There is no other magical energy transferred, by pistol projectiles at pistol velocities.
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Old 05-27-2017, 01:46 PM
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If by "transfer energy", you mean cut and destroy as much tissue, vessels and organs in the wound path as possible, that's correct.

There is no other magical energy transferred, by pistol projectiles at pistol velocities.
That's pretty much what it means, nothing magical about it.
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:00 PM
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That's pretty much what it means, nothing magical about it.
Yup.

Many confuse the things that rifle projectiles do at rifle velocities, with what pistol projectiles do, at pistol velocities. A given pistol round that penetrates and expands similarly to another, is not more effective if it's going a couple hundred feet faster doing it.
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Old 05-29-2017, 07:53 AM
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I m thinking this dogs been kicked around enough.... shoot what your comfortable with... that you hit accurately with.... with the best ammo you can afford.... and practice.
Hopefully none of us ever need to use a firearm in a defensive (or offensive) action.... but if you do... may it function properly.
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Old 05-31-2017, 08:33 AM
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I m thinking this dogs been kicked around enough.... shoot what your comfortable with... that you hit accurately with.... with the best ammo you can afford.... and practice.
Hopefully none of us ever need to use a firearm in a defensive (or offensive) action.... but if you do... may it function properly.
This is likely the most durable dog the shooting forums of the internet have ever shuffled a boot at, lol
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Old 05-31-2017, 12:25 PM
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Yup.

Many confuse the things that rifle projectiles do at rifle velocities, with what pistol projectiles do, at pistol velocities. A given pistol round that penetrates and expands similarly to another, is not more effective if it's going a couple hundred feet faster doing it.
A couple hundred feet a second is roughly the difference in velocity between a 9mm and a 45ACP. Tack on roughly another hundred feet a second and it's in the 357.44 magnum velocity range. Which is still well below the velocity threshold of center fire rifle ammo.

The higher velocity pistol/revolver ammo may get there quicker and have a somewhat flatter trajectory but other than that not much difference in the lot of them.
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