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Old 07-31-2020, 10:40 PM
Cornteen Cornteen is offline
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Question Militia or The Local Church Homegroup - Pick ONE



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I have no experience with militias, but see them here and there, especially now.

I have a lot of experience with both big and small churches, but never a homegroup, which is the big thing now.

Some militias look professional and disciplined like the Idaho 3%ers in the other militia thread. However most look undisciplined and untrained. Likewise, some churches are just social clubs. However some are very dialed in to the times and understand the Word.

Throw out your PROS and CONS of committing to ONE or the OTHER as your network to rely upon, defend, and survive together if things get unimaginable.
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Old 07-31-2020, 11:39 PM
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I try and be self sufficient. Yea I know some people that would take me in if needed and I would do the same for them but for the most part we all do better as loners.

There are good organizations with bad people and vise versa.

I should have been dead many times, yet I'm still here. Haven't figured out why, purgatory is my best guess.
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Old 08-01-2020, 03:01 AM
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If it ain't family you can never be sure. Just staying sure of family requires work and leverage sometimes.

Let's talk about the potential of a group after SHTF has happened and died down. Most people suck. A good culling and the leftovers might be more sensible after the big wakeup call.

If you feel you need a big group now when things are mostly still going then maybe there isn't much rugged individualist in you.
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Old 08-01-2020, 04:53 AM
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Given the choice of a militia or a church group, I would choose the church group. I know nothing about militias and their membership but people I go to church with are a known commodity. There are more shared values and beliefs than with a group of strangers.
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:50 AM
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By church group I assume you mean a group of people from the same church, not everyone in that church.

It might work if everyone has signed up to do what is necessary when the time comes. A few people with "turn the other cheek" attitude could cause real problems at the moment you need "every man with his weapons in his hand; and whosoever else cometh into the house, he shall be put to death"

Be Prepared !
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:28 AM
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I think you'll find many of the church folk are also militia members.
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:52 AM
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Old 08-01-2020, 10:08 AM
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It seems like gathering as a group would make better sense after the SHTFantasy.

On this Board, other boards, and Youtube, I've read or seen where people have been in several groups that didn't work out. And that somehow the next group will be better. No one will ever forget what they know about me or you and there is no way to assure to who or what the former allies will tell.

Strangers insinuate themselves into our business. Neighbor's talk to neighbor's and other people I don't know or want to know. Shared information is often inflated or changed to suit the audience.

Seems risky to me to try to make new friends under the guise of prepping.
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Old 08-01-2020, 10:15 AM
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You have to assume that any militia group with more than a dozen members has possibly been infiltrated by the government, which may turn out to be the biggest threat of all. Most real churches these days are largely made up of elderly people, many of which are infirm and will not be able to contribute much help beyond verbal advice. I don't see the two choices as mutually exclusive to each other. Go for both, but pay attention to the church leaders' views on self defense, and initially volunteer nothing about your own weapon preps.
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Old 08-01-2020, 10:17 AM
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All good points except I disagree with Zeke

I can see valid militia organizations, just no way to make it anything other than a volunteer group
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Old 08-01-2020, 03:35 PM
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IF a church group, you better make sure they clearly understand and internalize the 5th/6th Commandment is "shall not MURDER". The drivel of "shall not kill" has been a "issue" for centuries.
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Old 08-01-2020, 04:27 PM
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All good points except I disagree with Zeke

I can see valid militia organizations, just no way to make it anything other than a volunteer group
Being a former Marine, they have attempted to recruit me a number of times over the decades.

Most are posers and mall ninjas, typically led by someone with barely one tour of stateside military service, who join to be seen as badass without having to actually take the risk of being sent to war.

Unless the group is led by long term LEO or long term military, and is more LEO/military than not then they are likely just overeager yahoos with guns. Maybe if you find a true III% group that mandates that you once took your oath the Constitution then they would be OK. But that would also assume you served as well.

If you haven't served I don't want you on my militia team.

Almost all of you had the chance to serve in military or LEO. If you skipped your chance then you missed your chance. Don't expect those who did to agree to fight with you. War is hell and much worse with n00bs. A sprinkling of young studs brought along by cadre can be an exception, but the bulk needed .gov service.

If you haven't served then join the church group. A survival group is not a militia group. Survival groups aren't looking for trouble. A militia group faces the enemy, not avoids it. Survival groups should avoid trouble when possible. A militia/military group loses morale when it keeps avoiding the enemy. The role of military/militia/LEO is to face threats and overcome.


The either/or question by the OP conflates the issue. The two groups serve different functions. A militia exists to fight threats. A church group is just trying to survive with as little harm as possible. Completely different mission statements.

If you had served you would have realized this. You are likely not a good recruit for a militia worth serving in.
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Old 08-01-2020, 04:51 PM
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My impression too. Cant imagine the attraction in wearing all that gear if you dont have to. The airsoft guys do too, some with plate carriers and level 4 plates. Crazy.

At most, i would train 5 to train five and so on. Hopefully my foolhardy days are behind me.

68W
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Old 08-01-2020, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by IamZeke View Post
Being a former Marine, they have attempted to recruit me a number of times over the decades.



Most are posers and mall ninjas, typically led by someone with barely one tour of stateside military service, who join to be seen as badass without having to actually take the risk of being sent to war.



Unless the group is led by long term LEO or long term military, and is more LEO/military than not then they are likely just overeager yahoos with guns. Maybe if you find a true III% group that mandates that you once took your oath the Constitution then they would be OK. But that would also assume you served as well.



If you haven't served I don't want you on my militia team.



Almost all of you had the chance to serve in military or LEO. If you skipped your chance then you missed your chance. Don't expect those who did to agree to fight with you. War is hell and much worse with n00bs. A sprinkling of young studs brought along by cadre can be an exception, but the bulk needed .gov service.



If you haven't served then join the church group. A survival group is not a militia group. Survival groups aren't looking for trouble. A militia group faces the enemy, not avoids it. Survival groups should avoid trouble when possible. A militia/military group loses morale when it keeps avoiding the enemy. The role of military/militia/LEO is to face threats and overcome.





The either/or question by the OP conflates the issue. The two groups serve different functions. A militia exists to fight threats. A church group is just trying to survive with as little harm as possible. Completely different mission statements.



If you had served you would have realized this. You are likely not a good recruit for a militia worth serving in.
That's an interesting position. So, if someone has never served (like myself) they should not even consider getting into the fight with the enemy? That seems shortsighted to me and alienates many people who could learn to be useful fighters.
Many people who took the oath did not serve in combat roles. I have personally met many people who rarely, if ever, touched a gun after basic. Especially the folks who cycled through during the two decades before we got involved in the Middle East.
I get that those of us who never served have much to learn about military discipline, command structure, tactics and such, but there was a time in every soldier's life that they had no real life experience and had to learn.
If I had a situation where there were a hundred people advancing on my little village and I had an equal number of able bodied men to fight back, wouldn't it be foolish to only let the twenty who had some level of combat experience go to the fight while the other 80 hung out with the church group?
In the Revolutionary War many of the Patriots who took up arms were simple farmers. Rugged men, for sure, but not soldiers.
Again, to only consider people who took the oath to be worthy of fighting alongside by virtue of the oath, seems very shortsighted and a sure way to lose the fight.

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Old 08-01-2020, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by IamZeke View Post
Being a former Marine, they have attempted to recruit me a number of times over the decades.



Most are posers and mall ninjas, typically led by someone with barely one tour of stateside military service, who join to be seen as badass without having to actually take the risk of being sent to war.



Unless the group is led by long term LEO or long term military, and is more LEO/military than not then they are likely just overeager yahoos with guns. Maybe if you find a true III% group that mandates that you once took your oath the Constitution then they would be OK. But that would also assume you served as well.



If you haven't served I don't want you on my militia team.



Almost all of you had the chance to serve in military or LEO. If you skipped your chance then you missed your chance. Don't expect those who did to agree to fight with you. War is hell and much worse with n00bs. A sprinkling of young studs brought along by cadre can be an exception, but the bulk needed .gov service.



If you haven't served then join the church group. A survival group is not a militia group. Survival groups aren't looking for trouble. A militia group faces the enemy, not avoids it. Survival groups should avoid trouble when possible. A militia/military group loses morale when it keeps avoiding the enemy. The role of military/militia/LEO is to face threats and overcome.





The either/or question by the OP conflates the issue. The two groups serve different functions. A militia exists to fight threats. A church group is just trying to survive with as little harm as possible. Completely different mission statements.



If you had served you would have realized this. You are likely not a good recruit for a militia worth serving in.
Having said all that, I do share your opinion on many militias. I have never considered joining one for similar reasons, aside from the oath.

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Old 08-01-2020, 09:20 PM
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That's an interesting position. So, if someone has never served (like myself) they should not even consider getting into the fight with the enemy? That seems shortsighted to me and alienates many people who could learn to be useful fighters.
Many people who took the oath did not serve in combat roles. I have personally met many people who rarely, if ever, touched a gun after basic. Especially the folks who cycled through during the two decades before we got involved in the Middle East.
I get that those of us who never served have much to learn about military discipline, command structure, tactics and such, but there was a time in every soldier's life that they had no real life experience and had to learn.
If I had a situation where there were a hundred people advancing on my little village and I had an equal number of able bodied men to fight back, wouldn't it be foolish to only let the twenty who had some level of combat experience go to the fight while the other 80 hung out with the church group?
In the Revolutionary War many of the Patriots who took up arms were simple farmers. Rugged men, for sure, but not soldiers.
Again, to only consider people who took the oath to be worthy of fighting alongside by virtue of the oath, seems very shortsighted and a sure way to lose the fight.

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You have to realize there is a certain inertia the military shears off a person.

You can't say no. Once you take your oath you have no real choice until they give you a D214 at the end of your contract. You lose your constitutional rights. Refusal for anything is met with punishment.

Would you join a militia if after application you are told that a refusal might even be death? The US shot Eddie Slovak in cold blood. Some troops in hot zones have been given the bullet when cowardice showed up. It isn't talked about much.

Somewhere in bootcamp the realization happens that choice about life or death is no longer your own. No civilian militia can recreate this fundamental wakeup. A troop under oath next to you is guaranteed to stand by you at all times because you both know that the only way out is through to the end.

You can bring up all the civilian logic, but even that idiot supply clerk was subject at all times to being handed a rifle and pointed to the front with no choice.

Die in Place is a legitimate order. Rear guard units exist for the purpose of fighting and dying to delay an enemy from destroying a larger retreating unit. There are mil-speak terms for it but you can be directed someplace with the expectation of catching a bullet and your opinion doesn't count. Until you've faced that elephant there is no reason why those who have should trust you.

So what if you might evolve into a good fighter? You haven't evolved yet and there is no track record to prove that you could. At least some 3 year supply clerk walked the path with no choices even if the path was easy. They made the commitment when you didn't. Coming back and saying you would now isn't worth the trust.

It works different for LEO but they get lots of tiny enlistments the moment they have to confront suspects. They don't get to run away from the problem. If they do they don't end up on the force very long. Put a decade in on the streets as LEO and you'll have your share of pucker moments where running away wasn't an option. Military and LEO walk very different paths but both have faced the no choice option and mentally overcome it.

It's very rare that either military or LEO join up after young adulthood. There was a point in their youth where they challenged their character to face the peril and stand firm. We almost all had the opportunity if we were healthy. Some of us proved ourselves and many others took a pass. Those who proved ourselves do not owe those who didn't some kind of second chance.

This is our turn to make the risk choice of putting our lives in the hands of other men.

It's our right to say we only want to be with proven men.
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Old 08-02-2020, 12:53 AM
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I have tasted the cooking at the church groups and are partial to them. Problem with a lot of militias, is that sooner or later, they have to be fed.
I would rather stay outside the camp of both, and let both camps know who I am, and what I can offer. And if they come over for dinner, they had best be bringing it draped over the hood of their truck.
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Old 08-02-2020, 05:23 AM
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I plan to stay away from both.

Every volunteer group I've been part of always had core personality flaws that would blow the whole thing apart if stressed.

AFTER the crisis phase has passed is when I would consider joining up with people who are already proven survivors. Not before when its all talk and I have no reason to trust them and they no reason to trust me.
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Old 08-02-2020, 08:28 AM
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We don't have any militias up here as far as I can tell, but I know plenty of good people from my local parish and broader church connections that are both ideologically similar to me and concerned about the future, both near and long term. That group also encompasses a broad range of trades, professions, serving and ex-military and other skill sets, with a growing number of outdoorsmen who fish, hunt and camp. As most of the people have families to raise, they may be willing to fight and die for a cause if required, but they are not going to endanger the good of their families with reckless illegal behaviour or outward shows of force that would draw attention from the authorities. I think this dynamic also naturally limits the potential for ego-tripping that infects at least some prepper/militia groups. Consequently, I think that I have found a decent balance by connecting with such people.

I am of two minds with regards to the discussion about the role that civilians could play within a militia or resistance setting within a civil conflict. There seems to have been a fair number of resistance movements in Europe during WW2 that utilized civilians in a combat role (i.e. younger Russian Partisans, women and children in the Warsaw uprising) as well as in various support roles (i.e. the young Audrey Hepburn carrying messages in her shoe for the resistance). Most of the fighters during the 1956 Hungarian uprising were civilian, albeit many received very basic guerrilla training by the regime. How many in the IRA's fighting elements were militarily trained? And I look fondly upon the success of the Solidarity movement in Poland that was also predominantly civilian. I suppose that if the danger is grave enough, that might instill many of the participants with a commitment that mimics what is required by signing the dotted line to enlist within a branch of the military.

All that said, the groups mentioned above have had a mixed success record, and it was often the arrival of allied troops or the broader end of the Cold War that brought about the victory of their cause. Perhaps the Jews in Palestine who created the Haganah were the most successful, but even in its early days of the late 1920s-1930s when they predominantly provided perimeter security for Jewish settlements, they benefitted from the fact that most Jewish settlers from Europe would have had at least the minimum of mandatory national service in the army. They were further reinforced by veterans with combat experience in WW2, and their eventual success in bringing about and defending the new state of Israel reinforces the value of military service to such an exercise.

I would agree that the common bond of military service, within which every member subjects themselves to unlimited liability to the state should not be under-estimated. But further to that, I would point out the amount of training that even the most junior soldier, regardless of trade might undergo in comparison to the time available to most civilian preppers and people interested in joining a militia. A recruit in the Canadian Army Reserve requires about eleven weeks of training just to qualify as a trained infantry private, and the first leadership qualification course after that, that they would probably take after at least a year or two of serving within their reserve unit would last similarly long and perhaps with a noticeable failure rate. An officer candidate with a program that loosely mimics ROTC does about twelve weeks training their first summer to become a Second Lieutenant, and depending upon their trade may have to spent a similar amount of time for at least another summer to become fully trained within their trade. If any of these people were around during our time in Afghanistan and were able to meet the selection process to serve overseas, there was at least another six months of individual and collective training just in the work up to deploy for a six month tour.

What I've described above is just the basics. To develop an NCO, more senior officers or the selection process and training to join a more elite unit as even the most junior member takes even more time, training and resources. The SAS soldiers who rescued the hostages within the Iranian Embassy in London back in 1980 were assigned to an anti-terrorism unit for a six month rotation, in which they spent four days each week training on their primary task (usually an assaulter or sniper) and a fifth day in common training like first aid. And that's after everything it took to get into that unit. I emphasize the point only to establish expectations of how much an untrained civilian might be able to accomplish were they to try to get trained up on their own within a small militia group. Even if someone has the luxury of being able to spend every Saturday under the tutelage of the most experienced NCO that served in the GWOT, there's only so far that training will take you. Perhaps some of the terrorist groups that combatted the US got around this limitation by developing training camps within safe third countries were they were able to send their adherents for several months of training, financed by equally dubious sources, but even that has had mixed success and is not something that anyone on our side can realistically entertain.

Perhaps a serious militia might want to make use of and train up newcomers who are already trained as paramedics or highly skilled in ham radio to operate with them, but barring such skills it's probably not practical for most.

A Church based preparedness group fits within the time, resources and capabilities of most people and provides a nice balance of opportunity to both give and receive from a wide group of people. It might even be a healthy venue for people who want to get together to shoot at a local club and develop some self defence skills, or even provide a logistical base to house and feed fighters within a broader civil conflict, without trying to become something greater than its capabilities would suggest. At the very least, I think it prudent to prepare your local community to effectively support each other in a period of unrest such as what's facing America at this time.
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Old 08-02-2020, 10:00 AM
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I plan to stay away from both.

Every volunteer group I've been part of always had core personality flaws that would blow the whole thing apart if stressed.

AFTER the crisis phase has passed is when I would consider joining up with people who are already proven survivors. Not before when its all talk and I have no reason to trust them and they no reason to trust me.
Military solves this by switching a person from volunteered to voluntold. And they are big enough to enforce it.


In any case, the aftermath makes so much more sense. Beforehand risks group disaster on top of world disaster.

Isn't there enough trouble to deal with?
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