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Old 02-14-2010, 05:10 PM
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Hick Industries Hick Industries is offline
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I admit it. I have some pretty harsh and perhaps unique opinions of some rifle designs. But I am willing to admit that the reason I have them is based on my first impression of owning and testing that gun. For instance:

I bought one of the first SKS rifles imported and sold at the Pomona Gun Show in the late 1980s. So did many of my friends. They sucked. We were a little green at testing military weapons, but what ever was wrong with these particular examples of rifle, it was so bad that we could not hit a 30 inch target at 100 yds. Or at 50 yds. I am not even sure the bullet survived the exit from the barrel, it is like it just flew apart.

Now I read posting from folks who purchased properly made SKS rifles and I wonder what they are smoking, or perhaps I am.

I bought one of the Korean made AR-15 rifles in the early 1990s. It was called a Daewoo DR200. Came with a nifty side folding stock, since the Koreans had redesigned the m16 gas system to use a top mounted piston. I thought this would be the best thing since sliced bread. It shot well but refused to cycle anything other than factory loaded FMJ ammo. Now I read about all you satisfied AR-15 owners and I wonder why mine could be so bad and theirs work so much better.

I have tested Mosins, Carconos, Bertheas, Arisakas, SMLEs, Enfield P-14s, Springfield 03s, Mausers, and M1 Garands. And my opinion of these designs is highly affected by the first impression of handling them, comparing them against each other, and shooting them at various targets. Now I have expressed these opinions from time to time and caught flack from folks who think differently.

My opinions are based often based on first impressions, and if the guns sucks right out of the box, it is unlikely to be given a second chance. That is why I own a lot of Mausers and commercial rifles based on the Mauser and Garand action design.

Not trying to start a flame contest, but I see the world through the prism of my experiences.
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Old 02-14-2010, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Hick Industries View Post
I admit it. I have some pretty harsh and perhaps unique opinions of some rifle designs. But I am willing to admit that the reason I have them is based on my first impression.

Not trying to start a flame contest, but I see the world through the prism of my experiences.
Every well made shot begins with the confidence needed to make the attempt. If you don't have the confidence in your or your firearms ability then you will have to trust to luck. The only way to develope confidence in your marksmanship is to have a reliable firearm you can trust. That way when you practice and you aren't happy with the results, you know what you have to work on. I've had similar AK and SKS experiences to yours so I don't generally think of them when I am considering quality, accuracy, ergonomics, or primary defense pieces. While a billion Chinese and Ruskies may argue with me, I don't really care what they think. I've made what I believe to be better choices. Besides isn't that why we fight world wars, to sort out thing like that? Just because you or I don't like something at first try doesn't make it a bad piece either. We can only point out what we didn't like and people like us will agree and those not bothered by those issues won't.

I will always trust Winchester Mod 69A bolt action, and 1906 pump action .22's, because those were the first two rifles my dad put into my eager hands. They both made a great first impression on me. Same for the mod-37 Ithaca punp shotgun, Marlin lever actions, the Colt AR-15, and the Colt 45 ACP. I don't like Remy 870's, Olympic Arms AR-15's, Winchester levers, but I like my S&W 1911 45 Auto better than my Colt. Experience can change our minds. My first try of a Ruger 10-22 had them rejected in favor of a Browning. I now have 5 10-22's. We are all different mentally and physically and come to our choices in different ways, for different needs, and for different reasons.

Though all my choices are better than yours.
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:44 PM
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If you out there doing your own thing, then your own experience is the only thing you trust. You can try new things, read all you want, but what you know for yourself is what you trust.
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Old 02-18-2010, 10:08 AM
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Really appreciate this thread HI. It gives us a new perspective from which to evaluate (NOT JUDGE) your opinions and advice. I, for one, have always found them to be helpful. I know that formulating opinions based on first impressions can be a little premature. But it is really hard not to do sometimes. There are probably some folks in the forum who were blessed in that from an early age they were able to have anything they wanted regardless of price. They started out with the biggest and best and they usually have a very good take on the subtle differences between the high end products. You can generally tell who these folks are. And their advice is colored by their first impressions of "the good stuff". This makes their advice invaluable to those who haven't had access to high end products. They share what they know and our shopping is easier when we are able to get that new scope, rifle,stock,etc.. Most of us started out having to buy "the best for the money". I plunked down $186.00 for my first rifle, a Ruger 77 in 7mm mag.. Winchesters and Remingtons were going for almost $250.00 back then. I agonized over brand and caliber and cartridge because I wanted the best I could get "for the money". I truly thought that this might be the only rifle I would ever own. That rifle still wears an old Tasco 4x12(that I wouldn't swap for the most expensive Schmidt and Bender made)that was sold to me by the same guy who recommended the 7mm mag.. Education and time have been good to my wife and me. I have been able to obtain more rifles and equipment over time. Unlike the more fortunate, I have started with "the best for the money", which is ALL OPINION!! And I don't count mine any more valuable than the next guys'. And I have been able to work my way up in quality of product. And, like you HI, I have found that the cheap stuff is usually just that. And we warn folks to stay away from it. This is getting way too long. I apologize. What I'm trying to say is that we all base our opinions and advice on our past experiences. It's good to share that experience with others. And that's what the Survivalist Boards is all about. I missed the class on making paragraphs. Sorry. I'll do better next time.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:27 PM
223shootersc 223shootersc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boot View Post
Really appreciate this thread HI. It gives us a new perspective from which to evaluate (NOT JUDGE) your opinions and advice. I, for one, have always found them to be helpful. I know that formulating opinions based on first impressions can be a little premature. But it is really hard not to do sometimes. There are probably some folks in the forum who were blessed in that from an early age they were able to have anything they wanted regardless of price. They started out with the biggest and best and they usually have a very good take on the subtle differences between the high end products. You can generally tell who these folks are. And their advice is colored by their first impressions of "the good stuff". This makes their advice invaluable to those who haven't had access to high end products. They share what they know and our shopping is easier when we are able to get that new scope, rifle,stock,etc.. Most of us started out having to buy "the best for the money". I plunked down $186.00 for my first rifle, a Ruger 77 in 7mm mag.. Winchesters and Remingtons were going for almost $250.00 back then. I agonized over brand and caliber and cartridge because I wanted the best I could get "for the money". I truly thought that this might be the only rifle I would ever own. That rifle still wears an old Tasco 4x12(that I wouldn't swap for the most expensive Schmidt and Bender made)that was sold to me by the same guy who recommended the 7mm mag.. Education and time have been good to my wife and me. I have been able to obtain more rifles and equipment over time. Unlike the more fortunate, I have started with "the best for the money", which is ALL OPINION!! And I don't count mine any more valuable than the next guys'. And I have been able to work my way up in quality of product. And, like you HI, I have found that the cheap stuff is usually just that. And we warn folks to stay away from it. This is getting way too long. I apologize. What I'm trying to say is that we all base our opinions and advice on our past experiences. It's good to share that experience with others. And that's what the Survivalist Boards is all about. I missed the class on making paragraphs. Sorry. I'll do better next time.
My first rifle was a 300 WM Ruger 77 HB in ss with polymer stock and I paid about $280 out the door with tax. Because of this rifle and owning many Rugers since, I will always be a Ruger guy, even though I now can afford and have Rems, Savages, Howa, Browning, Brown, and other rifles. This gun out of box will shoot 0.5 inch groups to this day 20 years later. maybe I just got lucky, but the gun is a keeper and lead me to Mark II 22 and Speed Six 357 that are dandies and many others Blackhawks, Redhawks, P series, mini14 and Ruger No1 and Red label o/u all good products.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by boot View Post
Really appreciate this thread HI. It gives us a new perspective from which to evaluate (NOT JUDGE) your opinions and advice. I, for one, have always found them to be helpful. I know that formulating opinions based on first impressions can be a little premature. But it is really hard not to do sometimes. There are probably some folks in the forum who were blessed in that from an early age they were able to have anything they wanted regardless of price. They started out with the biggest and best and they usually have a very good take on the subtle differences between the high end products. You can generally tell who these folks are. And their advice is colored by their first impressions of "the good stuff". This makes their advice invaluable to those who haven't had access to high end products. They share what they know and our shopping is easier when we are able to get that new scope, rifle,stock,etc.. Most of us started out having to buy "the best for the money". I plunked down $186.00 for my first rifle, a Ruger 77 in 7mm mag.. Winchesters and Remingtons were going for almost $250.00 back then. I agonized over brand and caliber and cartridge because I wanted the best I could get "for the money". I truly thought that this might be the only rifle I would ever own. That rifle still wears an old Tasco 4x12(that I wouldn't swap for the most expensive Schmidt and Bender made)that was sold to me by the same guy who recommended the 7mm mag.. Education and time have been good to my wife and me. I have been able to obtain more rifles and equipment over time. Unlike the more fortunate, I have started with "the best for the money", which is ALL OPINION!! And I don't count mine any more valuable than the next guys'. And I have been able to work my way up in quality of product. And, like you HI, I have found that the cheap stuff is usually just that. And we warn folks to stay away from it. This is getting way too long. I apologize. What I'm trying to say is that we all base our opinions and advice on our past experiences. It's good to share that experience with others. And that's what the Survivalist Boards is all about. I missed the class on making paragraphs. Sorry. I'll do better next time.
My first rifle was a 300 WM Ruger 77 HB in ss with polymer stock and I paid about $280 out the door with tax. Because of this rifle and owning many Rugers since, I will always be a Ruger guy, even though I now can afford and have Rems, Savages, Howa, Browning, Brown, and other rifles. This gun out of box will shoot 0.5 inch groups to this day 20 years later. maybe I just got lucky, but the gun is a keeper and lead me to Mark II 22 and Speed Six 357 that are dandies and many others Blackhawks, Redhawks, P series, mini14 and Ruger No1 and Red label o/u all good products.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:50 AM
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Being a gunsmith, I've learned to judge each gun individually. I agree that first impressions can sway opinion though. But realistically, I've seen some work and some not work from literally every type of gun out there.

Yes Glock fans, we get just as many Glocks through the shop for work as any other brand. Yes 1911 haters, I've seen my share of them that worked 100% out of the box, as well as plenty that needed tuned. I've seen AR-15s that worked flawlessly and AR-15s that didn't. I've seen AKs and SKSes that could turn nearly minute of angle groups with the right ammo, but more that couldn't, and a few that couldn't hit the side of a barn from the inside! I guess I tend to try out a gun and if I'm not impressed, I take a look to see what could be done to make it better.

There are some real jewels out there that people turn up their noses at, like Bersa. I like their Ultra Compact so much that the .45 ACP version is my fulltime carry gun. It wasn't flawless out of the box, however. But 5 minutes later with a stone and it was.
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:51 PM
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There is nothing wrong with the way you form your opinions. There is one rifle in the bunch though that I would like to add some coments about. The 6.5mm Carcano shoots a bullit that is .268 vs the .264 of a standard 6.5 mm. Some carcanos will fire the smaller diameter bullits with far to goof acuracy most carcans requre the larger ,268 bullets to fire tight groups. Also when sighting the carcano the front sight is lined up with the bead in the bottom of the rear sights 'v' vs being level with the rear notch on the rifles we are all more familiar with. Without knowing these two bits of info it would be hard to shoot a carcano acurately and your opinion would rightly be that it is a poor quality rifle. while it would be the correct opinion in your eyes it would not be an acurate opinion of the rifle.
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Old 02-19-2010, 01:42 PM
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There are easily a 1000 or more rifle that will suit your needs well, no matter what you need them to do.

Some folks get a bad taste in their mouth about certain rifles for various reasons. My coworker thinks I am nuts for wanting a SKS. His buddy has several and doesn't take care of them. He thinks they're innaccurate and unreliable.

Every SKS in my safe is roughly 2 MOA or better. Any that aren't get sold. And I tell the owner how accurate they are.

Yugo SKS rifles are a much safer bet. They are more recently imported, and usually are resarsenaled before shipment to the US. Yugo aren't chrome lined, so they have a pretty decent barrel in them. The more recent import into the US means the less likely they have shot corrosive ammunition.

Chinese SKS can be a hit or miss. Early ones are OK. Latter ones were hastily made just to make a buck. SKS Rifles that were for military use are usually a bit better made. IF there was a problem with them, the rifle was usually sent to professional gunsmith to be corrected.

The next time I hit the range for a full day, I am going to post my 100 yard groups to show people what a good SKS with military surplus ammo can do. I will also show some of my handloads too. I can beat a good chunk of hunting rifles with scopes with a few of my SKS's.
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Old 02-19-2010, 03:25 PM
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Thanks guys, I am sure there are many rifles that deserve a second chance. The better quality SKS rifles in particular.
But I can only look at the world through my own experience or else I would become a sheeple. The solution is to enlarge my experience.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:02 PM
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Knowledge is the coin of power. The more we know the better we can take a task at hand.

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Old 02-20-2010, 02:16 AM
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Arrow Any better luck?

Daewoo DR200, working better now? SKS's are good, its just what did you get, some are better than others. I would keep buying and shooting them, and if they don't do what you want or realistically expect them to do, sell it/them and get another until you like it's performance. Its kinda like dating, keep looking until you find a keeper!
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Old 02-20-2010, 03:09 PM
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Daewoo DR200, working better now? SKS's are good, its just what did you get, some are better than others. I would keep buying and shooting them, and if they don't do what you want or realistically expect them to do, sell it/them and get another until you like it's performance. Its kinda like dating, keep looking until you find a keeper!
I will likely give the Daewoo to my nephew. He retired from the Air Force after 6 years at Fairchild, Menas, Germany the sand box, he is far better equiped to deal with it. I plan on buying a pair of Springfield M1As.
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