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Old 01-20-2018, 07:10 AM
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Quibbles, nitpicks and bones to pick, that's all ok, but any Second Amendment proponent who isn't MOSTLY appreciative of the NRA needs to get born. Join the other groups if you want, be vocal if you want, but you'd best understand that the only one with a seat at the table now or any time soon is the NRA. How about, promote and build up your other favorite group without attacking the NRA, and one day if that group eclipses the NRA in clout, things will be different, but for now, the NRA is effectively the same thing as gun rights in Washington DC. The day that there's a widespread perception that the NRA is losing a lot of members will be the day we get gun-grab legislation. Media and politicians aren't going to say "golly, those million people left the NRA to join GOA," they are going to say "a million people left the NRA, now we can ban [whatever gun-related item has been in the news lately]." They don't know or care what GOA or any other group aside from the NRA is. It might be different one day but that is how it is today. Do I really need to say this? P.S. Water is wet.
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Old 01-20-2018, 11:39 AM
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jknova View Post
Quibbles, nitpicks and bones to pick, that's all ok, but any Second Amendment proponent who isn't MOSTLY appreciative of the NRA needs to get born. Join the other groups if you want, be vocal if you want, but you'd best understand that the only one with a seat at the table now or any time soon is the NRA. How about, promote and build up your other favorite group without attacking the NRA, and one day if that group eclipses the NRA in clout, things will be different, but for now, the NRA is effectively the same thing as gun rights in Washington DC. The day that there's a widespread perception that the NRA is losing a lot of members will be the day we get gun-grab legislation. Media and politicians aren't going to say "golly, those million people left the NRA to join GOA," they are going to say "a million people left the NRA, now we can ban [whatever gun-related item has been in the news lately]." They don't know or care what GOA or any other group aside from the NRA is. It might be different one day but that is how it is today. Do I really need to say this? P.S. Water is wet.
The NRA has, especially in the past, made some giant errors. But they are definitely a different organization today. Yes, they still have a large amount of trapshooters and old school hunters as members, who don't understand or give a rip about actual 2A issues. But they don't dictate the course anymore. Because those who truly support the 2A are members and make their voices heard. They have been very active in fighting for things they wouldn't have in the past. As you said, they are politically savvy, and sometimes their tactics won't please the in your face rabble. But they have been getting things done. If you don't don't think they swayed the last elections, talk to Hilary, she sure thinks they did.

From my own experience in talking to lots and lots of gun folks, most of those that loudly complain about the NRA, don't belong, and never have. (Save maybe a free 1 year membership they got with a gun or something). They also don't write letters, or donate to any gun organizations. Not all, but most. That's not to say they don't still have things that could be fairly criticized.

So join. Or stay in if you're a member. Send money to the ILA. Write emails to the board and give your opinion. Vote for board members who represent your viewpoints. Make it your NRA. They are the 600 lb gorilla, whether every yootoob bully with their own ideas of how to get it done, likes it or not. But the membership only consists of a fraction of gun owners, even a fraction of just AR owners. If the NRA were twice the size it is now, we wouldn't be talking about any new legislation.

Organizations represent their members, not those who criticize them from outside. If you don't participate, don't complain if you think they don't represent your viewpoints.


.
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Old 01-20-2018, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
The NRA has, especially in the past, made some giant errors. But they are definitely a different organization today. Yes, they still have a large amount of trapshooters and old school hunters as members, who don't understand or give a rip about actual 2A issues. But they don't dictate the course anymore. Because those who truly support the 2A are members and make their voices heard. They have been very active in fighting for things they wouldn't have in the past. As you said, they are politically savvy, and sometimes their tactics won't please the in your face rabble. But they have been getting things done. If you don't don't think they swayed the last elections, talk to Hilary, she sure thinks they did.

From my own experience in talking to lots and lots of gun folks, most of those that loudly complain about the NRA, don't belong, and never have. (Save maybe a free 1 year membership they got with a gun or something). They also don't write letters, or donate to any gun organizations. Not all, but most. That's not to say they don't still have things that could be fairly criticized.

So join. Or stay in if you're a member. Send money to the ILA. Write emails to the board and give your opinion. Vote for board members who represent your viewpoints. Make it your NRA. They are the 600 lb gorilla, whether every yootoob bully with their own ideas of how to get it done, likes it or not. But the membership only consists of a fraction of gun owners, even a fraction of just AR owners. If the NRA were twice the size it is now, we wouldn't be talking about any new legislation.

Organizations represent their members, not those who criticize them from outside. If you don't participate, don't complain if you think they don't represent your viewpoints.


.

Maybe its time for a new as you say "600lb Gorilla" https://gunowners.org/ As far as the NRA being twice the size they are now & we wouldn't be talking about any "NEW" legislation is laughable.

I don't normally agree/watch this guy, but hes correct in this video("WARNING" He does use what some find to be vulgar language, for those that dont want to hear it."WARNING")

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Old 01-20-2018, 03:17 PM
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As far as the NRA being twice the size they are now & we wouldn't be talking about any "NEW" legislation is laughable.
Laugh all you want. The D's and R's are afraid of the current membership. They'd be much more afraid of an organization twice it's size.

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Originally Posted by Christopher67 View Post
I don't normally agree/watch this guy, but hes correct in this video
One of the bigger morons on the toob. I know 12 year olds with more firearms knowledge. I concur with your assessment of his videos. But I watched a bit just to be polite. Same ole useless clickbait.

Jknova wrote a perfect explanation above of why the NRA likely took the course they did. The alternative at the time was badly written panic legislation that could have had wide implications. Lets see if the ATF doesn't come back with the same correct interpretation of the law they had under Obama. If not, lets see what the AG and the White House have to say.

Politics suck, and idiots like in the video have zero understanding. If they had their way, we'd have much worse laws in place already.

There are people I respect that disagree with me. Those that start accusing me of being a sellout and antigun can pound sand.

I belong to a bunch of 2A groups and donate to them, including in states I don't live in. I don't agree with any of them 100%, but I belong and voice my opinions. I let my GOA lapse, since their main focus seems to be fighting and disparaging the NRA, while claiming credit for any pro gun things that happen anywhere. Ego and money driven turf warfare.

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Old 01-20-2018, 04:54 PM
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Laugh all you want. The D's and R's are afraid of the current membership. They'd be much more afraid of an organization twice it's size.

Well thats interesting, yet we keep getting more & more gun control and the NRA is helping them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
One of the bigger morons on the toob. I know 12 year olds with more firearms knowledge. I concur with your assessment of his videos. But I watched a bit just to be polite. Same ole useless clickbait.

Jknova wrote a perfect explanation above of why the NRA likely took the course they did. The alternative at the time was badly written panic legislation that could have had wide implications. Lets see if the ATF doesn't come back with the same correct interpretation of the law they had under Obama. If not, lets see what the AG and the White House have to say.

Politics suck, and idiots like in the video have zero understanding. If they had their way, we'd have much worse laws in place already.

There are people I respect that disagree with me. Those that start accusing me of being a sellout and antigun can pound sand.

I belong to a bunch of 2A groups and donate to them, including in states I don't live in. I don't agree with any of them 100%, but I belong and voice my opinions. I let my GOA lapse, since their main focus seems to be fighting and disparaging the NRA, while claiming credit for any pro gun things that happen anywhere. Ego and money driven turf warfare.

.

While I agree with you on the person in the video, he is correct about the NRA. Honestly there is zero difference between a republican or a democrat politician. Not sure whos calling you a sellout, not me. I personally see nothing wrong with GOA attacking the NRA, IF the NRA is selling out the 2A and their pointing it out.
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Old 01-21-2018, 12:05 AM
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This was my synopsis of the issue:

https://youtu.be/mTFCJPE4_pA
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Old 01-21-2018, 01:04 AM
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Well thats interesting, yet we keep getting more & more gun control and the NRA is helping them.
Except a lot of gun control has been fought off, and I believe the NRA is the major reason why.

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I personally see nothing wrong with GOA attacking the NRA, IF the NRA is selling out the 2A and their pointing it out.
I don't believe they have been, and I think the GOA is run by the same caliber folks as in your video.

Loud mouth morons, more interested in their own egos than the cause.

.
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Old 01-21-2018, 06:56 AM
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Well, at risk of repeating myself ... actually I can guarantee that I am repeating myself, from page 1:

Quote:
The NRA did not say "the ATF should say they are machine guns." The NRA said "the ATF should review the ruling." Any proper review of the ruling will find that the prior ruling was correct. You may recall the immediate anti-bump-stock rush after the Vegas incident, with many Republicans talking about a law banning bump stocks. I think the NRA intelligently blunted that rush by suggesting it was a ruling that belonged in the hands of the ATF, in the hopes that the ATF would affirm its prior ruling after emotions settled.

Why do I believe this? Because I've had influential roles in large organizations, and I personally have done similar things to slow or kill ideas that I disagreed with, but which I thought I didn't have enough political capital to shut down openly.
In the 1990s, the NRA did sign off on some pretty bad stuff. They may have felt they had no choice, but still, they deserve scorn for that.

But for quite a few years now, the NRA has been very consistently in favor of everything we're in favor of. Just not as strident in communication as some groups that don't actually need (or get) to look legislators in the eye.

It's a team effort - every state that I know of has one or two statewide organizations set up to lobby that particular state's government on behalf of gun rights. The NRA is involved but not in the lead. At the federal level, I am not sure that Trump, McConnell, Ryan, Schumer or Pelosi could name a single gun rights group other than the NRA. Meanwhile, guess who spoke at the NRA's annual conference this year. I am not advocating Stepford type lockstep support. Join, and as a member, complain about things you don't like. Or say "I'm an NRA member and a GOA member, here's why I think GOA is great." Just don't run around explicitly or implicitly trying to get people to quit the NRA, unless you are really trying to get gun control legislation passed. Undermining the NRA is about the dumbest thing we could do to defend the Second Amendment.
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Old 01-21-2018, 07:13 AM
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Like it or not, the NRA is the only pro-firearms organization with enough clout to make an impact on politics, elections, etc.
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Old 01-21-2018, 07:23 AM
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Undermining the NRA is about the dumbest thing we could do to defend the Second Amendment.
A very good case can be made that the NRA has done a lot to undermine the 2nd Amendment as well. The NRA is doing it again by advocating for the legislation of this "Bump Stock", theres a HUGE gray area in how this legislation is written and its backed by who, the NRA.
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Old 01-21-2018, 07:49 AM
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Like it or not, the NRA is the only pro-firearms organization with enough clout to make an impact on politics, elections, etc.
Well, they can start any time now.


I think you know how I feel about them. From what I see, they are no different than the politicians, as they need all the drama and controversy to stay in power. They all ALWAYS tell us they are fighting for us and looking out for us, and doing as we ask, as our reps, yet they stab us in the back at every turn. They HAVE to keep things going, its how their system works. Unfortunately, we keep buying ito their crap, and financing their machines. We give up, and they get.

If the system worked as it was supposed to, most of them would be out of business. Think about that a minute.

If you havent figured out by now, the whole system is rigged, and that includes the NRA, then you either havent been around too long, havent been paying attention, or are yourself, part of the problem.
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Old 01-21-2018, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Christopher67 View Post
A very good case can be made that the NRA has done a lot to undermine the 2nd Amendment as well. The NRA is doing it again by advocating for the legislation of this "Bump Stock", theres a HUGE gray area in how this legislation is written and its backed by who, the NRA.
Thatís the problem with the ATF reviewing, itís not legislative, its regulatory given the strength of law!

Legislators on both sides of the issue will not have to give an a opinion on it (vote or abstain) thereby risking any of there base. They can just talk out of both sides of there mouths, and the ATF will make a regulation.
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Old 01-21-2018, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Christopher67 View Post
A very good case can be made that the NRA has done a lot to undermine the 2nd Amendment as well. The NRA is doing it again by advocating for the legislation of this "Bump Stock", theres a HUGE gray area in how this legislation is written and its backed by who, the NRA.
Except they didn't.

They did a feint and punt, and many gun folks fell for it as much as the mainstream media did.

But from last October:
Quote:
(CNN)The National Rifle Association says it is opposed to new legislation in the US Senate and the House that would ban the production and sale of "bump fire stocks," a firearm accessory that allows semi-automatic weapons to fire at a more rapid pace like automatic ones.
While the low IQ red meat club of yootoob would have wanted the NRA (that they're not a member of), to just throw up double middle fingers after the Vegas shooting, that's not what they did. Instead they deflected to ATF reviewing the law, realizing the political climate at the time would have seized on any strong defense of bump stocks as proof the NRA just wants more children to die. Panic legislation would have very likely passed at the time, and would have probably been as poorly written and far reaching as many new gun laws are.

Fast forward, the heat and rhetoric have largely died down, and there's less chance of legislation passing. If ATF comes back with a different, and nonsensical ruling on current law, that can be attacked in court. My gut feeling is they're not going to.

If the wimpy R's do fold and pass anything, it's less likely to overreach and affect more things. Not ideal, but sometimes that's the best you can hope for.

I always wonder just exactly what do the internet 2A tough guys think would be the best course? Scream **** You, not one more inch and show up armed en masse on the steps of Congress over bumpstocks? Given public sentiment over bumpstocks, and the current political climate and Supreme Court, good luck with that. You may even know all of the other dozen guys there with you. But you can feel good that you helped push the new legislation through, and paved the way for more.

.
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Old 01-21-2018, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
Except they didn't.

They did a feint and punt, and many gun folks fell for it as much as the mainstream media did.

But from last October:


While the low IQ red meat club of yootoob would have wanted the NRA (that they're not a member of), to just throw up double middle fingers after the Vegas shooting, that's not what they did. Instead they deflected to ATF reviewing the law, realizing the political climate at the time would have seized on any strong defense of bump stocks as proof the NRA just wants more children to die. Panic legislation would have very likely passed at the time, and would have probably been as poorly written and far reaching as many new gun laws are.

Fast forward, the heat and rhetoric have largely died down, and there's less chance of legislation passing. If ATF comes back with a different, and nonsensical ruling on current law, that can be attacked in court. My gut feeling is they're not going to.

If the wimpy R's do fold and pass anything, it's less likely to overreach and affect more things. Not ideal, but sometimes that's the best you can hope for.

I always wonder just exactly what do the internet 2A tough guys think would be the best course? Scream **** You, not one more inch and show up armed en masse on the steps of Congress over bumpstocks? Given public sentiment over bumpstocks, and the current political climate and Supreme Court, good luck with that. You may even know all of the other dozen guys there with you. But you can feel good that you helped push the new legislation through, and paved the way for more.

.
Ok the link game

https://www.washingtonpost.com/power...=.61eb14c2e6c7

3 days later..........

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.f001159ba718



7 days later.........

http://thehill.com/regulation/355183...ng-bump-stocks


What does this tell you about the NRA.... ?


oh theres more.....

http://www.newsweek.com/everyone-eve...-happen-692075


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/u...-shooting.html

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...-restrictions/

on & on & on......

The NRA likes this, they make $$$ from it & imho really don't care about the 2nd Amendment.
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Old 01-22-2018, 01:13 AM
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Apparently you have the same political understanding as the Yankee Marshal.

You just said and linked to the same thing as I did, but don't realize it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher67 View Post
The NRA likes this, they make $$$ from it & imho really don't care about the 2nd Amendment.

Sigh....

I hear the marshal has a new video on why .22's can hurt to get shot with......

Enjoy.
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Old 01-22-2018, 02:48 AM
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"Machine gun" already has a legal definition.

The government shouldn't get to change that definition to include a tube of toothpaste, a pair of flip flops, or your uncle Tim's handlebar mustache, or a stupid bump stock, or a Geissele FCG on a whim.

Personally, I want the NFA registry reopened and the $200 fee eliminated. I want SBR's and suppressors off the NFA. I'd be ecstatic if the NFA was gone entirely. But one thing I sure as hell do not want from our pro-RKBA leaders and our pro-RKBA NRA is more things added to the NFA.
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