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Old 08-31-2018, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
Because the 20 rounder is only about 3/4” longer than standard so it’s not “really” extended.
I have the 30’s for the Storm, I suppose I could toss a few in the bag for the trip.

I was having a what the heck moment...LOL
Then I saw where they also sold 30 round mags and since they're factory mags I may have give them a try.
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Old 09-01-2018, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
Pure BS, read:

https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701268.pdf

Review of criticisms of ballistic pressure wave experiments, the Strasbourg
goat tests, and the Marshall and Sanow data

Michael Courtney, PhD
Ballistics Testing Group, P.O. Box 24, West Point, NY 10996
[email protected]

Amy Courtney, PhD
Department of Physics, United States Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996
[email protected]

Abstract:
This article reviews published criticisms of several ballistic pressure wave experiments authored by Suneson et al., the Marshall and Sanow “one shot stop” data set, and the Strasbourg goat tests. These published criticisms contain numerous logical and rhetorical fallacies, are generally exaggerated, and fail to convincingly support the overly broad conclusions they contain.

Originally submitted 13 December 2006. Revised version submitted 31 July 2007
The Courtneys are two of the last people I would listen to regarding ballistics. Their work has been thouroughly debunked by the military, the FBI, and every well-respected ballistics lab out there. Additionally, Michael Courtney has a long and illustrious history of editing wiki pages to back his assertions and remove references that debunk them.
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Old 09-01-2018, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by thegoat View Post
There are very, few if any rounds that will penetrate level III body armor that isn't a magnum rifle cartridge. Level III stops multi hit M193 - 5.56mm standard NATO ball, and M80 - 7.62x51 (.308) NATO ball.

Now if your talking IIIA (soft armor), the projectile and the speed matter more than the caliber. FN 5.7 ball will penetrate IIIA all day long and the AP SS190 is even meaner. 9mm M39/B FMJ was orignally imported in the early 1980's as surplus ammo and out of a G19 will go through both sides of a IIIA vest. Though a little hard to get because its now considered AP and not able to be imported, but the stuff already here is legal federally.

The real key is velocity followed by a small surface area, projectile shape, and a hardened tip.



Why not a rifle in the trunk? I use my pistols to get me to my rifle...seems like a .44 lever action would go well with the revolver.
Because a loaded long gun is not legal in my home state nor the state I’m ended the trip in.
Mix in FOPA and such and it’s just not practical.
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Old 09-01-2018, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by cujet View Post
The 9 vs 45 argument makes me laugh. Good 9mm ammo makes 300lb.ft energy. Good 45 a touch more. With the 45 making a hole that's only 1.5mm bigger....
What!?! You have lost your mind! Everyone knows that if you are shot in the head and killed with a .45 you will be deader than if you are shot I the head and killed with a 9mm. It's just common knowlege!
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Old 09-02-2018, 08:12 AM
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Who talks in mm ... the word you're looking for is "inches." There is nearly a tenth of an inch difference between 0.452" and 0.355". A tenth of an inch may not sound like much, but consider what the percentage difference is. Also, consider taking a detailed 3d image of the human body and trying to chart a course through it with these two different size holes without hitting anything vital. Or, another way of visualizing it is, if I can make a (0.452" - 0.355", 230gr - 124gr) 0.097" 106gr bullet and move it at, say, 800fps, would you be ok with it hitting you? It's less than a tenth of an inch, so what harm can it do?

The reason it doesn't matter as much these days is because hollow points have gotten so effective at expanding at handgun velocities. My EDC is a 9mm. Still, I'm suspicious when people say "it's just a tenth of an inch" like that is meaningless in this context.
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Old 09-02-2018, 08:38 AM
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The most effective handgun is the one with which you frequently practice with and adapt your tactics to fit. Different handguns are meant to fill certain niches. There is no one perfect handgun for any and all occasions. There is no one perfect caliber or perfect millimeter either.

Here's a rule that most handgun instructors know, for a fact, after years of study and using them:

1. ALL handguns are weak sisters. That means that even the biggest, meanest of them will fail to effectively stop some bad guys every now and again. There is no denying it. It happens.

2. Most handgun instructors consider a handgun to be a back-up to a primary firearm like a shotgun (very close range firearm) or a rifle (longer range firearm). Several instructors will tell you that you use your handgun to fight your way to get to your rifle.

3. Most handgun instructors push accuracy over caliber. What this means is that one well placed shot to the central nervous system (CNS) often wins the day and brings the fight to a screeching halt. That's why so many instructors teach 2 to the chest and 1 to the head no matter what caliber or millimeter the handgun size is being used. If you put any kind of bullet through a bad guy's forehead, no matter the size, you ruin his day. Size of the bullet becomes a moot point when accuracy surpasses it.

4. Tactics, good tactics, make or break any firearm and it usefulness. If you really want to effectively use your pistols in a combat role, you need to train like SWAT or hostage rescue teams train. That means that you need to learn to get close to a hostile target, use speed to engage the target and use well placed multiple shots in the target. So your tactics involving effective pistol use are: get close, move fast, multiple bullet strikes and score good hits in vital areas on the target. If you do all of these things that will increase your pistol's effectiveness but it is still suggested that you consider using it as a back-up to some other firearm which has more power and accuracy behind it.
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Old 09-02-2018, 12:42 PM
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Just to be clear it's the caliber of the man or woman and not the caliber of the handgun that is the real factor in a gun fight. Yet time and again handgun caliber rises from somewhere down the list of importance to take center stage.


I watched the power point presentation (video) and thought it to be anecdotal evidence couched as a study so as to give it the air of authenticity. Which it does not have. Unless one can get past the notion of caliber being the supreme arbiter of a gun fight they will forever be, behind the curve..LOL
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Old 09-03-2018, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
Because a loaded long gun is not legal in my home state nor the state I’m ended the trip in.
Mix in FOPA and such and it’s just not practical.
Might I suggest a quasi rifle... not knowing your laws this is usually considered a pistol, yet this may give you a rifle-ish option in the future???


https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/mares-leg/
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Old 09-03-2018, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goat daddy View Post
I have a ruger super redhawk in 454. there is no way I could control it in rapid double action fire. I don't see it going through level III body armor. It is an outstanding hunting gun, especially when scoped. For social work, it is hard to beat a 357 mag. I look at that as the upper limit of accurate double action rapid fire.
I think the idea was that the tracker (which was the mentioned gun in the video) would be able to shoot 410 000 buck for defense and smaller calibers as additional options. I think you can shoot 45 ACP as well with moon clips, but not sure if that was it. Anyways, I have a GP 100 and henry golden boy in 357 and I would not trade that caliber for anything in the world. I like to consolidate calibers, so no way I am buying another revolver in a different caliber. Plus, it's a taurus. That by itself is a deal breaker. Not sure on the body armor argument. There might be a point there...or not. Not sure...but as you said 357 is hard to beat.
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Old 09-03-2018, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goat daddy View Post
I have a ruger super redhawk in 454. there is no way I could control it in rapid double action fire. I don't see it going through level III body armor. It is an outstanding hunting gun, especially when scoped. For social work, it is hard to beat a 357 mag. I look at that as the upper limit of accurate double action rapid fire.
The 357MAG is pretty hard to beat, even out of the 2.5" guns.

44 Special isnt bad either, and pretty much about the same shooting wise as the 357MAG.

With the right/moderate load, from a 4" gun, 44MAG isnt bad either. Control in DA isnt a problem either.

Theres no doubt, the 357/44SPL are a bit quicker back on target and shooting wise compared to the 44MAG though.


Body armor, with pretty much any of the handgun calibers, pretty much nullifies them.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:00 PM
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i used to be in the .45acp camp.. used 45acp for conceal carry, main weapon i intended to use was a 45acp carbine, stockpiled lots of ammo for it.. until i didnt.. i figured its heavier, takes up more space, and costs more than a 9mm with the same range and muzzle energy too.. but i havent exactly made the leap to 9mm yet either.. im sort of in that limbo and at this point i am leaning towards not having a "standardized" or consolidated handgun caliber at all
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Old 09-04-2018, 10:57 AM
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The best self defense round is the one that hits the bad guy in the head.

The best advice is to train, then train some more then train again and never stop training so when confronted with a bad guy you hit him in the head (Or if under 3 feet in the groin)
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Old 09-04-2018, 02:13 PM
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When all other issues (concealability, group compatibility, etc) are not a concern, then my personal preference is a 1911 in 45ACP. Not everyone in my family or extended support group can handle the 1911 in 45ACP, so the standard is a Glock 19 9mm, which pretty much everyone can shoot and control easily. With either cartridge if you hit what you aim at you win the fight provided you did so first. Otherwise it's a tie, and in a tie you both lose. I happen to be best with a 1911 because I have shot it for years and have well in excess of a million rounds down range through them, thus my confidence and competence with it are superior to that with the G19. The difference may be slight, but that small edge can make a difference in a stressful scenario. I don't feel undergunned with either, and my EDC (because of concealability) is a G43, which I also feel quite confident with. The first rule is to have a gun, and that means finding what you can and will carry ALL THE TIME. Once you have made that selection, the key is, always has been, and always will be, hitting what you aim at. Choose the cartridge/firearm combo that you will always have with you, and which you are best at hitting your target with, and that is your answer to this question. People's abilities, situations, and scenarios are all variable, so there is NO universal answer to "what is the best..." on anything.
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Old 09-08-2018, 05:26 PM
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Cripes, everyone knows it's .44.

.44 Russian
.44 Special
.44 Magnum
.445 SuperMag
444 Marlin

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Old 09-08-2018, 07:47 PM
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i do love some of the mental gymnastics some people have to go to in order to dig their heels into a position their ego wont let them move away from and argue points that are of some of the least importance

most important think when picking a handgun to carry, is pick one youre going to have on you every single day, you probably wont be conceal carrying a full size double stack M9 or 1911 on hot days, at least not comfortably and such guns, while fine in the winter will probably get left at home in summer months.. and a gun left at home is useful to nobody.. so pick something you will have on you DAILY

the second important thing is to make sure you can reliably and accurately get shots on target, a hit with a 22 beats a miss with a 44 any day of the week.. and not just something you can accurately get on target the first shot, but multiple shots in rapid succession

after this, then you can bicker about bullet diameter, muzzle energy, magazine capacity, etc, as neither of these matter if you cant achieve the first two
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Old 09-08-2018, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
i used to be in the .45acp camp.. used 45acp for conceal carry, main weapon i intended to use was a 45acp carbine, stockpiled lots of ammo for it.. until i didnt.. i figured its heavier, takes up more space, and costs more than a 9mm with the same range and muzzle energy too.. but i havent exactly made the leap to 9mm yet either.. im sort of in that limbo and at this point i am leaning towards not having a "standardized" or consolidated handgun caliber at all

Can't say I disagree there. I went .45 in the 80s. Hi caps were in their infancy and 9mm ammo was subpar. If I was starting today is probably go with 9mm for several of the reasons you mentioned. Now I have multiple .45s, some.of them for decades, accessories, ammo etc. Doesn't make sense to switch. I do still enjoy shooting .45 and have confidence in the round, but modern 9mm ammo has cut the difference in performance to levels that aren't significant imo.
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Old 09-08-2018, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
i do love some of the mental gymnastics some people have to go to in order to dig their heels into a position their ego wont let them move away from and argue points that are of some of the least importance

most important think when picking a handgun to carry, is pick one youre going to have on you every single day, you probably wont be conceal carrying a full size double stack M9 or 1911 on hot days, at least not comfortably and such guns, while fine in the winter will probably get left at home in summer months.. and a gun left at home is useful to nobody.. so pick something you will have on you DAILY

the second important thing is to make sure you can reliably and accurately get shots on target, a hit with a 22 beats a miss with a 44 any day of the week.. and not just something you can accurately get on target the first shot, but multiple shots in rapid succession

after this, then you can bicker about bullet diameter, muzzle energy, magazine capacity, etc, as neither of these matter if you cant achieve the first two
Some of us have carried full sized handguns, pretty much every day, our whole lives. Its really not a big deal. It really amazes me sometimes, when you are told by someone who doesnt or wont, that the gun youve carried all along, without any problems, is to big to do so, and youre likely to leave it at home.

While I agree a hit with something is better than a miss with anything, you still need to be at least somewhat realistic in your choices. A small gun in a small caliber is about the worst choice you can make, and for all the wrong reasons. Add to that, the lack of regular practice and skills, and it just gets worse, exponentially.

Im still of the belief, that you should base your choices on what you shoot best with, and then go from there. Anything in the size range of a 1911 GM is easily carried on a daily basis, even in the heat of the summer, "if" youre willing to do it. You dont have to short yourself, unless of course, you want to. Your choice, just dont unnecessarily fool yourself though.

And the only way to know for sure is to actually do it, not just theorize about it.
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Old 09-09-2018, 12:28 AM
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Can't say I disagree there. I went .45 in the 80s. Hi caps were in their infancy and 9mm ammo was subpar. If I was starting today is probably go with 9mm for several of the reasons you mentioned. Now I have multiple .45s, some.of them for decades, accessories, ammo etc. Doesn't make sense to switch. I do still enjoy shooting .45 and have confidence in the round, but modern 9mm ammo has cut the difference in performance to levels that aren't significant imo.
i was consolidating pistol rounds to the 45acp a few years ago, i have a carry pistol in the caliber, a hi point carbine, and others, but didnt really see the value in sticking with it, being heavier, and more expensive than other options.. but i havent even picked a successor to that yet so currently i stockpile no pistol cartridges at all, and buy bulk quantities of 9mm and 9x18 as i need them
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Old 09-09-2018, 10:52 AM
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Can't say I blame you Justin. I eliminated alot of handgun calibers in the last 10 years, down to 3 now not counting rimfire. As I agree 8 favor simplicity. I will probably continue to slim down but will set them aside for my kids.
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Old 09-09-2018, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
i was consolidating pistol rounds to the 45acp a few years ago, i have a carry pistol in the caliber, a hi point carbine, and others, but didnt really see the value in sticking with it, being heavier, and more expensive than other options.. but i havent even picked a successor to that yet so currently i stockpile no pistol cartridges at all, and buy bulk quantities of 9mm and 9x18 as i need them
9X18 Ultra, that’s the round you’re destined to champion.
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