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Old 09-30-2009, 09:51 PM
RUGERBUSTER RUGERBUSTER is offline
 
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Hi i have been wondering if the israeli military and civilian masks and russian models that also have childrens size are reliable..and if we should trust the filters.
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Old 10-20-2009, 02:32 PM
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I'm a WMD staff specialist now, finishing my nuclear engineering degree (weapon stuff mostly and some WMD related classes as well). Also did a tour with the 20th Support Command CBRNE, the Army's experts (if they don't know the answer, they have a network that will get them). Allot of civilian considerations have been integrated into the planning and contingency operations to include the chem/bio protection systems used by fire departments and HAZMAT response teams. If you want to find a mask/filter for your home use, go see what they are using because chances are they are not military issue.

The M40 mask is still designed for cold war response, it works but relies heavily on a decon and resupply system to work well (MOPP suit exchange, canister replacements and such).

As for canister shelf life: if they are in the original nitrogen sealed cans, they are good for a long time (10-15 years easy). If they are out or come in a different package than the original, don't trust it.

The best way to check if foreign made filters are good, compare filters types/material to the known military M40. The M40's specs are well know and easy to get the manuals on. Also, there are several well informed individuals on this thread that know.

Oh, for the most 'deadly' and scariest attack I vote for the bio, just because of the response/incubation time on some viruses are weeks, allowing a possible wider spread before the first symptom is reported.

As for a dirty bomb, if your not hurt/killed in the blast, cover your air way and go take a very long show, bag up all your contaminated clothes (called double bagging). This will almost give you a 99.9% reliability that your not contaminated. For a safe check, check your clothing for radioactive readings, mainly alpha, to ensure your safety.

Chances are the hospital and emergency centers will be filled for quiet awhile, mainly the worried well, people who don't know anything asking to be checked out.
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Old 10-25-2009, 03:15 AM
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I have a question:
What do you know about biohazard suits?
Is it worth looking into getting any for my home?
Are they even available to the public?

Thanks!
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wood View Post
I have a question:
What do you know about biohazard suits?
Is it worth looking into getting any for my home?
Are they even available to the public?

Thanks!
Do you mean a SCBA system with suit or a air hose assist suit (like in Outbreak the movie)?

If so, you want a level A suit that encapsulates you and your SCBA system. They are pricey starting at about $800 up to $2000, and that's just the suit. The SCBA system can run from $200-$2000 which requires training to purchase. Some have dual options where you can attach an external air source by hose or a filtering box designed to level A standards, which is what I think your looking at. I've never seen the price for the filtering box, might have been a special order thing Anniston Army Depot used (Where I was stationed for my EOD command). Level A is good for bio and chem.

Check out this place http://www.labsafety.com/DUPONT-Tych...36/?CID=9PP001
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:37 AM
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Where/how does one obtain atropine combopens?
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koevoet View Post
Where/how does one obtain atropine combopens?
Far as I'm aware, only government/military have issue authority. There are some equivalent 'pens' in the government/world market (saw them at a trade show for governments) not sure if they are for sale to civilians.

There may be civilian/local government issue ones or the fire departments and rescue squads, try their supplier network. Most likely need credentials to purchase also.

As far as safe use of these, they are really meant for your buddy or its assumed you will be evacuated from the scene by rescue personnel (in a military scenario that I know of). You could give yourself the first shot (or two or three depending on the toxic dose one took), but you probably won't be conscious to administer the vital follow-up shot to the atropine (can't remember the other pen applicator chemical name).
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Old 02-11-2010, 04:00 PM
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The older Russian NBC masks had a set up for protecting those with head wounds in addition to the regular equipment. The Israeli stuff includes a "crib" sort of set up for protecting small children. Personally , having seen the US stuff, and pictures of both the Russian and Israeli stuff , would opt for Israeli. My reasoning for this is that they planned for entire populations, the Russian stuff was for its military. Now, what ever you can get is better than nothing at all. Remember any thing with a filter has one critical consideration.
It filters out contamination, so there still has to be Oxygen in the air around you!
If you are working / sheltering under ground, You may need breathable Oxygen in Air tanks.

oh and one other thing. Depending on what is in the atmosphere, your filter time made decrease rapidly.

When the Russian hit Chechnya, the Chechns did one thing that no mask will protect against. They used Bleach and Ammonia under explosive detonation.

The gas is pure toxic and the filters are not sufficient to filter anything out with this particular gas.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pt84abs2.html has some historical information on those standards.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/topics/respirators/ has other information that may be of use.

I was an NBC Defense NCO for a few years and formerly HAZWOPER certified under the Washington State and OSHA regulation. (80 Hours for Washington State/40 for OSHA)
back in 1996.

Hope this helps
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Old 02-12-2010, 01:55 PM
Countbad Countbad is offline
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My question is this. What would be the basic requirements for air filtration and ventilation on a fallout shelter? The closest nuclear targets depending on wind directions from my location are 2 major cities both around 200 miles away and an army base that is 100 miles away. Chemical and Biological weapons would not be a factor in my area.


Thanks in advance.
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Old 02-13-2010, 01:09 AM
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What is the actual protection offered from a M-10 protective mask(as far as chem and nuclear go)? I realize that there might be other filters, ect. But I'm just curious.... Thanks for any feed back.
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Old 02-22-2010, 03:59 AM
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i have a m40 mask and hood. what suit should i get? should i keep extra 3m filters? thnx -1fishhead
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:23 AM
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How about radiation meters? Are the old CD V-700s worth getting once they are calibrated? And if the old CD Vs are worth getting, and the 700 isn't the best choice, what is? The purpose would be to check for the lowest amount of radiation emitting from food, objects and people. Being able to simply check the air would be nice too however as I understand it, the 700s wouldn't be good for that.
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Old 02-22-2010, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeGal View Post
How about radiation meters? Are the old CD V-700s worth getting once they are calibrated? And if the old CD Vs are worth getting, and the 700 isn't the best choice, what is? The purpose would be to check for the lowest amount of radiation emitting from food, objects and people. Being able to simply check the air would be nice too however as I understand it, the 700s wouldn't be good for that.
For the price, yes. The CDVs are a rugged design for easy use.

Need to ensure one covers the gamma, beta and alpha radiation detector probe range though, which might entail a second or third meter and/or probe set.

Some training and education in the radiation environment would greatly enhance one's use of the detectors. I recommend 'Environmental Radioactivity From Natural, Industrial & Military Sources, Fourth Edition: From Natural, Industrial And Military Sources' by Merril Eisenbud. Also a chart of the nucleotides for all the crazy decay chains. The book gives a good introductory into radiation and the environment, especially the food chain process of radioisotopes and how/what to detect for.

The toughest to detect and the easiest to overlook is the alpha radiation, it is the most prevalent and caused the most lingering radiation effects from historical reference (bikini island, Hiroshima and Nagasaki).

Ludlum makes excellent, rugged and multi probe capable detectors and meters, a little pricey though....http://www.ludlums.com/index.php?opt...d=15&Itemid=15
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:12 AM
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As to suits, if you can locate them still sealed in the bags, the older OD green CPOGS (Chemical Protective Over Garments) will work for about 8 hours. The newer "Saratoga" suits are better with hoods included.

Be careful being fully dressed in an NBC Suit will make you very warm very quickly

You will want to invest in US military canteens with NBC caps. Get MIL Spec NOT knock off caps.

Additionally look for Butyl Rubber gloves and over boots. Also you will need the ability to decontaminate your gear and dispose of the contaminated equipment.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:17 AM
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Masks are only going to protect you from inhaling contamination.

They are not Radiation proof. If you are exposed to Alpha, Beta or Gamma Radiation, the only option is to get as far away and as fast as possible from those sources of contamination.

As to filters, depending on your filter will determine what your protection is.

Remember that if you are using a protective mask, the filter cartridge will collect and trap radioactive particles and hold them. While not breathing this stuff in is a good thing,

The filter will hold those particles much closer and concentrate the exposure to those types of radiation much closer to your body.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:19 AM
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For Gas Gaps:

http://lightningprotectioncor.thomas...e-spark-gaps-2
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:53 PM
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is a radiac meter a good thig to have?
is the NBC gear a good thing to have with out the injection kit?
can you even get the injection kits?
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Old 03-01-2010, 03:52 AM
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LD 50/50 LD 50/50 is offline
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How does LD 50/50 factor in with LD 50/100, or LD 100/100

what the hell is LD?
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LD 50/50 View Post
How does LD 50/50 factor in with LD 50/100, or LD 100/100

what the hell is LD?
LD = LETHAL DOSE roughly speaking in a screwed world 500 rad and your zombie meat.

Folks seriously interested in NBC survival should try and get hold of
The Nuclear Survival Handbook by Barry Popkiss
and
Surviving Doomsday by C Bruce Sibley
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Old 03-26-2010, 07:30 AM
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Well, I spent 12 years working with Nuclear Weapons on Submarines and was the NBC NCO in my tank platoon in the Army.

Most important line of defense is the mask. Radiation comes in four flavors. Alpha, beta, gamma, and neutron.

Alpha is the most insidious. It only travels 4 to 9 centimeters through the air and a piece of paper will block it effectively. This makes it hard to detect. It is a primary component of nuclear fallout in the form of alpha emitters. Alpha emitters if inhaled will travel through the body to the bone marrow. There they will bombard the red blood cells causing leukemia.

A mask or even an improvised filter will stop them. So your mask is the most important item to avoid serious health problems from alpha. Also avoid exposing open wounds. When decontaminating use lukewarm water. Cold water will close the pores locking them in. Warm water will open the pores letting them go deeper.

Beta is also a form of fallout. Beta travels a few feet through the air and is easier to detect. It is also fairly easily stopped by almost any barrier. It is not as dangerous as alpha because the radioactive particles are smaller and have less mass to mess up your cell structure. Again the key is to have a good filter to keep from inhaling contamination. The mask is the most important line of defense.

Gamma is actually a form of radiation, a wave not a particle. It travels much farther than alpha or beta, but does not have as much ionizing potential. Again the key is to avoid getting emitters, fallout particles that emit radiation into your body. The mask is best for this.

Because of the low penetration of most forms of ionizing radiation, having them concentrated in a mask filter is much better than having them in your body. Gamma has a high penetration but is relatively low in its ionizing potential.

Neutron only occurs as a direct result of a nuclear blast and travels rapidly out of the area.

The key to radiation is to remember it is the dust which you inhale or get into your body that causes radiation sickness over time.

If you are in the immediate vicinity of a nuclear explosion or reactor meltdown, you may be in an area with such a high REM count that nothing will keep the radiation from causing radiation sickness. Leave immediately, lol, if you were that close you are probably already dead or walking dead anyway.

It is only when in such a location that radiation, as opposed to dust kills you. It kills you the same way, but faster because you are so close to massive amounts of ionized materials which are emitting high amounts of radiation.

In such a situation think of the primary source, as a light source. Metal, water filled tanks, etc. will block the radiation better than air. The more massive the block the less radiation will get through.

When dealing with a survivable situation, it is the dust, stopped by the mask, which is key to long term survival. The dust is ionized material made radioactive by exposure to radiation. It is the same as the materials in the immediate vicinity of a nuclear blast or reactor meltdown, but it is dust particles in the air and water. This is what fallout is.

So, if you are having a really high count on a meter, leave and decontaminate yourself to remove all dust, get rid of the clothes. Heavy poly bags, poly buckets, etc. will work to block radiation effectively from clothes contaminated with alpha and beta emitters. Remember, they are massive particles which hit other particles in atoms, lose their velocity and stop. So, it is what makes them very dangerous because of their high ionizing potential which makes them have short ranges and relatively easy to block.

It is the radiation emitting dust getting into your body which is your primary concern.

Most poison gases are not gases at all. They are complex chemical compounds spread in a fine aerosol spray. Particles, not gases. Like dust they can be blocked by the mask.

Only blister agents like mustard gas directly effect exposed skin.

Biological agents are also not gases. They are complex biological organisms, spread in a fine aerosol form. Again, they can be blocked by the mask. Careful decontamination is the key. They are more dangerous because they can reproduce and spread.

The mask is the most important item you can have. Protective suits are a nice addition to your safety, but they do not do nearly as much as the mask.

Of course, the real biological threat is not an agent spread by a bomb or airplane, but a disease with a slow incubation time which can spread around the world reaching pandemic proportions before anyone is aware of it.

Protective suits represent a compromise. For military situations you need a suit which will allow you to exert yourself under combat conditions. It has to breathe, allow sweat to cool you, etc. So you have special suits designed to act as filters allowing air to reach you, but filtering agents through various layers in the suit. Older ones will not provide the best protection, but some protection is better than no protection.

An ideal suit is a pressurized nonpermeable plastic suit which will block all external air, and if cut will, because pressurized blow air outward preventing contamination from entering. Very high tech and not really practical for survivalist situations.

You can improvise some protection with plastic garbage bags and duct tape. Make sure you have a good seal, and be careful when removing it to avoid contaminating yourself by touching the exposed outer surface with bare skin.

It is the dust which kills. Dust or liquid particles which is chemically poisonous, as in gas attacks. Dust which is radioactively poisonous as in fallout. Dust which is biologically poisonous as in biological agents. The mask is your first and best line of defense against this.

Be paranoid about dust and grime to avoid contamination. The mask is the most important element to prevent them from entering your mouth, nose and lungs.

I agree that the Israelies are a good source. They are deeply concerned with keeping their civilian personnel alive, and are very smart people. I would tend to think their gear is among the best available.
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Old 03-26-2010, 06:00 PM
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As base veterinarian on an Air Force Base in the late 60's, I was part of the radiation safety crew for cleaning up possible broken arrows (nuclear bombs broken apart with exposed fissile material). I can confirm that the dust, even with alpha emission, is the killer. It gets in the alveoli of the lungs and exposes lining cells to radiation. This leads ultimately to lung cancer. In such circumstances wearing a mask was critical.
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