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Old 06-14-2019, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Justme11 View Post
A cold steel pig spear might be another weapon to consider for close range.
I have one and it would stop a charging 800 lb boar..
I was editing my post to recommend a spear too, as you were posting. As always with any melee weapon though, attitude is key. With a poor attitude and too much self confidence, that spear will just get taken away and used against you. But if you can be more crazed than the attacker, I think you could make a spear work.

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Old 06-14-2019, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by svremeto View Post
Hello, folks!

I live in Bulgaria. A country in easter Europe with a lot of corruption, a country of criminaks. I was brought here by sorrow. I live in a relatively dangerous place where is almost illegal to defend your self or your home. Its extremely hard for most people to get a fire arm for self defence so i've started to think about home defence with an airgun. I found there is a relativly cheap semi automatic airgun called Hatsan Sortie. It has approximately 20-22 jaules of energy and muzzle velosity of 700 fps. I.'ve found also that if i get .22 slugs which are twice heavier than the regilular pellets the stoping power will increase and i suppose they will be enough accurate for 15-20 yards. If i put a red dot and with its big magazin (12 shots) i suppose its enough to defend my home (me or my wife) from 2-3 attackers.

What dou you think about it?
Hello! You use the word "almost" there.

I see you have AKs for sale in Bulgaria and that theres IPSC competitions done there as well so 9mm handguns are legal. Like everywhere else shotguns are legal as well.

I'm saying this becuase there's a BIG difference between illegal an regulated. In Cuba, China and North Korea, sure its illegal, but in your country its not, you just have to follow some steps and to some extent that goes to show how serious you are about wanting a gun or not.

The first time I walked into a GUN STORE in Spain it was a small town shop that sold mostly shotguns and hunting rifles. They told me handguns were illegal in Spain... again, this is coming from someone that OWNS a gun store.
I knew he was wrong but I know better than to argue with such an obvious idiot so I said bye, went my way.
12 months later I have a room with three safes and more than enough handguns, rifles and shotguns.

My advice is to go pick a big kitchen knife. I bought a 10" chef knife from IKEA the day I landed in Ireland. Then ask yourself how serious you are about self defense. If you are, take the time to get the permit you are required and arm yourself.
No, a BB gun is a terrible idea. I bet a double barrel shotgun is simple enough to get and its an actual firearm. Porbably a semi auto Benelli is just as easy to get.

Finally, you are a member of the EU. If you are not happy there then just look for other options. My maid is from Bulgaria. Nice woman. She left a few years ago and is happy here. Her son is looking to become an electrician. If he had better grades that kid could go to college and study any career he wants.
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Old 06-14-2019, 06:36 AM
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The point is that I'm speaking from first hand experience and I know that club weapons are worthless and you're not going to stop a desperate or crazy person with one. The only thing they do is give one a false sense of security. But when the SHTF that club isn't going to do **** for you because real life isn't like the movies.
Thats because your attackers didn't know what they where doing.

Its something that would be easy to show you, but hard to explain online, but there is a world of difference between the force you can deliver just swinging without practice, and the same weapon, swung by the same man, at the same target, but with training.

I don't know if you have played any sports....but its like the difference between someone swinging a golf club, baseball bat, etc. Strength matters, but technique is what really gets the force you need. It's no different than hand to hand in that regard.

It's mostly a matter of speed, as we know from ballistics, its speed, not weight that really increases kinetic energy, when you just swing from your shoulder your weapon moves no faster than your arm. If you start yours swing from your right foot, tightening muscles up your leg, into your lower back, upper back as it twists, your arm is just the floppy bit that aims the blow, a blow with the strength of your entire body behind it, a blow that literally moves too fast for the human eye to see. A single blow to the head with baseball bat, baton, etc delivered properly is an instant knockout with a high probability of death.

An analogy is the trebuchet. A big slow moving weight, moving a lever that doesn't move much faster....until the sling whips out at the end and suddenly all that slow ponderous force is turned into a whip like snap.

The club in one form or another was a powerful weapon of war for centuries. When knights fought each other on foot they used maces because swords where useless against armor, they just couldn't deliver enough force.

I would take a club as my weapon of choice over any other melee weapon. Unless I had a sheildman with me, in which case I would use a spear.

But you do have to train with it, thousands of strikes, week after week. No different than boxing, karate, etc. Nobody would say that a trained fighter couldn't knock someone out with one good punch. A club, cane, stick, rock, has an order magnitude more potential power...if it's a good blow.
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Old 06-14-2019, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by svremeto View Post
Hello, folks!

I live in Bulgaria. A country in easter Europe with a lot of corruption, a country of criminaks. I was brought here by sorrow. I live in a relatively dangerous place where is almost illegal to defend your self or your home. Its extremely hard for most people to get a fire arm for self defence so i've started to think about home defence with an airgun. I found there is a relativly cheap semi automatic airgun called Hatsan Sortie. It has approximately 20-22 jaules of energy and muzzle velosity of 700 fps. I.'ve found also that if i get .22 slugs which are twice heavier than the regilular pellets the stoping power will increase and i suppose they will be enough accurate for 15-20 yards. If i put a red dot and with its big magazin (12 shots) i suppose its enough to defend my home (me or my wife) from 2-3 attackers.

What dou you think about it?
In Bulgaria private ownership of long guns and shotguns as well as pistols and revolvers are allowed but you have to go through a licensing process

https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/bulgaria
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by svremeto View Post
Okay, full auto bbs guns but are these 350fps enough? I thinks its very low power.
They are low power and a CO2 cartridge typically lasts only one burst. But they do look like fun.
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Old 06-14-2019, 10:00 AM
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I know you're trying to help the poor guy but I've said this before and people don't believe me probably because my stories sound too crazy, but baseball bats are useless and clubs in general are useless against any but the weakest, most undetermined attacker.

Back in the 80s I was attacked by an angry man with a baseball bat and I took that bat and beat him with it. In the end he was laying on the ground cowering and I had full control.. I'm sure he hit me with it before I took it from him but with the adrenaline going I never even noticed.

I ended up being the one getting arrested when the cops showed up, but that's not the point.

I've also been hit in the back of the head with a steel lug wrench hard enough that I later had to get stitches to stop the bleeding. Same thing - I took it from him and overpowered him easily and with the adrenaline I never even felt the hit. I didn't get arrested for that one though.

The point is that I'm speaking from first hand experience and I know that club weapons are worthless and you're not going to stop a desperate or crazy person with one. The only thing they do is give one a false sense of security. But when the SHTF that club isn't going to do **** for you because real life isn't like the movies.

Honestly, for a primitive melee weapon I think I'd rather have a 6 foot / 2 meter spear with a thick shaft. At least it has a pointy end that you can try to keep the bad guy away from you. A sword is too unwieldy although it sounds cooler, maybe if you were really good with it. (Yeah I do have a sword but I'd rather have a spear) But unlike clubs I don't have any first hand data points with actually fighting for real with swords or spears so I don't really know.
.
I was watching a video a while back that suggested a club type weapon used for defense shouldn't be swung but should be used to jab. They showed when using it to swing if it is deflected or missed the target or was a poor hit it takes so long to get ready to swing again that the person with the bat probably won't get a second chance.

Whereas if a person uses it for jabbing kind of like punching, they have extended their punch by 3 feet, instead of hitting with knuckles are hitting the other person with a blunt wooden object and are absorbing the blow in the palm of their hand rather than on their knuckles. Using it to jab they also have better control of where they aim, it is harder for the other person to deflect it and it is possible to get in several jabs a second rather than the several seconds it takes to re setup to swing a bat.
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Old 06-14-2019, 06:56 PM
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rather than the several seconds it takes to re setup to swing a bat.
If it takes more than a second to set up for a swing, again, you don't know what you're doing. You should easily be able to deliver two blows in less than a second.

But sure, jabs are part of it. No fighting art uses only one move. Of course, unless the other person is also trained, your first blow will end the fight so no others will be needed.

The issue with jabs though is that unless they are part of a combo where the opponent is distracted by a previous blow its a good way to have your weapon grabbed, and of course, they carry little power.

If you are trusting, thrust directly for the face, not because its, well, the face, but because its hard for the human eye to judge depth on a small object moving directly towards your eyes as it becomes slightly larger as it moves closer but otherwise does not appear to move.

Of course this also takes practice. Most people when they try to thrust with a stick have a lot of lateral movement. What you want to do is almost like playing pool, move the stick so that it stays inline rather than kicking to one side or the other.

Or...start a swing that would otherwise be short, but at the last moment when it is about to swing past without striking, turn it into a thrust.

These are things you can learn but it does take practice. Melee weapons are not just something you can pick up and swing and be effective with, which is the mistake most thugs make.

If you're serious, you need a tire pell to practice on. Many different ways to build one, but this is the one I use. Some people make ones that are much more elaborate.

But you really can't practice unless you have something you can hit, and it has to be something with some give and that won't get damaged so you can actually lay into it with full force rather than 'pulling your punches' so to speak, which helps teach you how to slide off your first hit directly into a second without 'resetting' for another blow.


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Old 06-14-2019, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by svremeto View Post
Hello, folks!

I live in Bulgaria. A country in easter Europe with a lot of corruption, a country of criminaks. I was brought here by sorrow. I live in a relatively dangerous place where is almost illegal to defend your self or your home. Its extremely hard for most people to get a fire arm for self defence so i've started to think about home defence with an airgun. I found there is a relativly cheap semi automatic airgun called Hatsan Sortie. It has approximately 20-22 jaules of energy and muzzle velosity of 700 fps. I.'ve found also that if i get .22 slugs which are twice heavier than the regilular pellets the stoping power will increase and i suppose they will be enough accurate for 15-20 yards. If i put a red dot and with its big magazin (12 shots) i suppose its enough to defend my home (me or my wife) from 2-3 attackers.

What dou you think about it?
Your best survival tool is your brain - use it to flee your oppressive nation and move to freedom. We in America would welcome you.

Absent that it's impossible for us to advise you on what weapons to use for self defense. I suspect your laws will frown on you defending yourself. If you can use primitive weapons, or improvised tools, I would use a spear, knife, sword, or club. If you are now allowed weapons, use a improvised tool that would be common in a home or farming implement like a pitchfork or machete or sythe, framing hammer, etc.

A simple hardwood staff in trained hands is an extremely potent weapon offering reach and fast strikes. If you can put a spear point on one end, there's not many better weapons for hand-to-hand.

Others mentioned a sling, bow, crossbow, or airbow. Perhaps if legal. I think it's impractical for home defense.

Personally, I'd go for items that can be easily obtained and legally explained - framing hammer, short staff and/or fishing spear, nice machete. These are formidable, fast to use, inexpensive, and have legal justification other than weapons.

Pellet guns are nearly useless for self defense, and even if useful I suspect if you were to use one your government would deem it a violation of some sort. They are offering 1/10th or 1/5th of a .22 caliber, which is very anemic for self defense. Pellet guns can be defeated with a small metal shield, chair, blanket, etc.

Good luck to you!
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Old 06-14-2019, 07:43 PM
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I think rapid fire BB's to the face would be enough to change someone's mind about you being an easy target.

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Old 06-14-2019, 07:50 PM
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The other aspect of melee weapons is that The person attacking with the weapon must be mentally and emotionally prepared for the damage they intend inflicting. The more detached a person is from the conflict, the easier it is emotionally to commit to and engage in conflict. A melee weapon forces you into close contact with pain, blood, terror and that's emotionally repulsive for most humans that have not been desensitized to it. A gun allows an opportunity to distance yourself from all of that. If you're not emotionally prepared for the pain, blood, terror, you won't fully commit to inflicting all of that up close and personal. The intended victim will have the opportunity to turn the table. It's why the military and police started using human shaped silhouette targets to train. To desensitize them somewhat to inflicting pain and death on other humans.



BOOK: On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society is a book by Dave Grossman exploring the psychology of the act of killing, and the military and law enforcement establishments' attempt to understand and deal with the consequences of killing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing
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Old 06-14-2019, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by svremeto View Post
Hello, folks!

I live in Bulgaria. A country in Easter Europe with a lot of corruption, a country of criminals. I was brought here by sorrow. I live in a relatively dangerous place where is almost illegal to defend your self or your home. Its extremely hard for most people to get a fire arm for self defense so I've started to think about home defense with an airguns. I found there is a relatively cheap semi automatic airguns called Hatsan Sortie. It has approximately 20-22 joules of energy and muzzle velocity of 700 fps. I've found also that if i get .22 slugs which are twice heavier than the regularize pellets the stooping power will increase and i suppose they will be enough accurate for 15-20 yards. If i put a red dot and with its big magazine (12 shots) i suppose its enough to defend my home (me or my wife) from 2-3 attackers.

What do you think about it?
Fixing your problem at the ballot box may be your best bet.
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Old 06-14-2019, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
Thats because your attackers didn't know what they where doing.
I'm sure you're right but of course they weren't trained because hardly anyone is. including people who think they're going to use a club type weapon for self-defense. Bat, lug wrench, cane, whatever.

I have no doubt that if you train like Bruce Lee and whack a bag 1000 times per day you can make the club less useless.

But very few people are going to train like that and even if they did, I'd rather have a knife with a very long handle, AKA a spear. You can whack him with a bat a half dozen times and if he's determined enough or on enough drugs, he's going to get through and nullify it. But if you stick 8 inches of steel in his gut without letting him get close to you, he's going to go away and probably bleed out somewhere.

But still, all he has to do is get close enough to grab that spear just below the blade and then if he's bigger and stronger than you, it's all over. And it is probably easier to do than people might think. You can move the hands faster than the other person can react.

So I think even a spear would require some practice and training because most people would get it knocked right out of their hands. This is why I can't say for sure a spear is better - only that I would prefer one.

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Old Yesterday, 12:12 AM
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So I think even a spear would require some practice and training because most people would get it knocked right out of their hands. This is why I can't say for sure a spear is better - only that I would prefer one.
Spears are great.

But take even more training than a club/baton/stick etc to use well.

And they are not the best weapon for one on one fighting. They are very unforgiving, you get one shot and exactly one shot at an enemy who knows what he is doing because if that first trust is blocked or deflected the enemy is in your shorts as they say....right up against you while your spear tip is four feet behind him.

Now, if your facing several of them at once you are in real trouble. You block one easily....and four others shoot in and skewer you. You jump inside the range of one, and his buddy has stepped back and pops you in the face.

But a spearman on his own is at a very large disadvantage....unless he has a narrow opening, fence, etc to use to limit enemy movement.

Of course this assumes an enemy who knows how to fight a spear, which is very few people, but I still suspect your average thug would at least have the general idea of getting inside your range.

The problem with all melee weapons, beyond the obvious (they aren't a gun) is that they all require martial arts levels of training to really use well.

Easy of use is a big part of why guns revolutionized the battlefield. You could suddenly raise huge armies with only a few weeks training instead of needing knights and men at arms who had a lifetime of training.
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Old Yesterday, 02:15 AM
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i love it when europeans ask questions to the states side, its sooooooooooooo funny reading the answers

to the OP, yes buy the air rifle, fit a red dot or laser to it
i find laser better as you shoot from aaan under arm possition not a shoulder mount.
700 fps, aim for the face, neck, throat, groin areas, body shots are a waste of time unless they are wearing only t shirts.
any weapon is better than no weapon, and a rifle is easier for the rest of the family to learn to use.

next up, baseball bats, i love the yanks ameration for these things, they are a complete waste of time and effort, they are to long to swing with any force in a european house. your only use is to jab with them and thats an easy arm block. cricket bats dont work either

number one best weapon

2.5kg CO2 fire extinguisher, aim at the face and fire, damages eyes and breathing and covers your escapes, worst case hit them with it or throw it down the stairs at them
also great on wasp nests and hornets if your child gets swarmed at, the freezing and the co2 puts the wasps down instantly

number three option is a flipping giant high power torch, i ant talking yanky maag light kiddy wink torch, i am talking chinese quality ones with the new larger 18650 li ion batteries, shine one of those superduper mega power fffull ones direct into someones face and they cant see anything, get a full power torch plus aa equally high powered strobe and its works even better

last favourite of mine is a farmers cattle or sheep electric fence generator, the battery powered electric fence energises at one end and door handles, or along garden fence tops or garden gate handles works just as well
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Old Yesterday, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by hedgerowpete View Post
i love it when europeans ask questions to the states side, its sooooooooooooo funny reading the answers

to the OP, yes buy the air rifle, fit a red dot or laser to it
i find laser better as you shoot from aaan under arm possition not a shoulder mount.
700 fps, aim for the face, neck, throat, groin areas, body shots are a waste of time unless they are wearing only t shirts.
any weapon is better than no weapon, and a rifle is easier for the rest of the family to learn to use.

next up, baseball bats, i love the yanks ameration for these things, they are a complete waste of time and effort, they are to long to swing with any force in a european house. your only use is to jab with them and thats an easy arm block. cricket bats dont work either

number one best weapon

2.5kg CO2 fire extinguisher, aim at the face and fire, damages eyes and breathing and covers your escapes, worst case hit them with it or throw it down the stairs at them
also great on wasp nests and hornets if your child gets swarmed at, the freezing and the co2 puts the wasps down instantly

number three option is a flipping giant high power torch, i ant talking yanky maag light kiddy wink torch, i am talking chinese quality ones with the new larger 18650 li ion batteries, shine one of those superduper mega power fffull ones direct into someones face and they cant see anything, get a full power torch plus aa equally high powered strobe and its works even better

last favourite of mine is a farmers cattle or sheep electric fence generator, the battery powered electric fence energises at one end and door handles, or along garden fence tops or garden gate handles works just as well
Number one best weapon anywhere in Europe is a shotgun.
Legal everywhere, including UK. Its usually the easiest and cheapest to get.
The one on top, the Mossberg 500 ATP, 7+1 with a 24" barrel used to belong to an English gentleman before he moved to Spain and I ended up with it. Thing is a rifle with slugs.
I'd be happy with a Hatsan Escort semi auto loaded with buckshoot too.
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