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Ontario RTAKII - "Unproven and Unworthy"

10K views 24 replies 16 participants last post by  Gaston444 
#1 ·


:(
 
#7 ·
"Steel should win against wood every time," is not an accurate statement. Ask anyone who has ran their car into a tree or wooden power pole... just sayin! ;)

Would have liked for the reviewer to detail the wood type, log diameter, etc.

I have found a niche for batoning in my outdoor activities, however splitting large logs is not it. I would consider that abuse and outside of the intended use of the RTAK2. Smaller diameter limbs and logs are more applicable for batoning's intended purpose anyway. Getting the fire started. You have your bigger logs near the fire to help dry them out and just use the smaller ones as the beginning of the fire if you can't find dry wood. At least, that's my theory! Good for Ontario for replacing it, regardless.

Understand, though, that I do not say "never baton a log to get dry wood," just that eyes must be open to the fact that it is abuse and your knife may fail. JMHO according to my experiences.

Should it stand up to it? Maybe, depending on the wood and, yes, the heat treatment. However, it is a cutting instrument first, slashing second, and chopping third. If those were the uses the reviewer limited it to, would it fail?

All that being said, if anyone wants to use their knife in such a fashion, I will not call them names nor berate them. I have batonned myself. I welcome the discussions about its viability and uses as that has helped lead me to the viewpoint I now hold.

Either way, sucks a blade had to die to bring us this video :(
 
#8 ·
The funny thing about batoning is that just finding a good baton that is not rotten, solid, short and properly tapered to grip well and be heavy at the tip, all that is quite a chore....

Then you have to add level ground and a rock-steady support for the wood to cut, or you have to start with wood already square cut...

Sounds more like backyard work than actual field use...

Gaston
 
#10 ·
I have spent as much time in the wood as many people, and around here I have never found a piece of wood lying around that was suitable for use as a baton, even if allowing for one cross-grain cut for shortening it...

A baton here always involve much searching and preparation...

Anything on the forest floor is always either too thin, too thick or too rotten, no exceptions, EEEEVer...

The way I see it, a useful baton is something you have to manufacture out of something big, or bring it with you...

Also batoning to cut cross-grain is a big effort, more than likely it will do some edge damage, and if you don't do that, where are you going to get the square-cut wood to split? So then you have to prepare the wood by cutting it square with a folding saw... Well... I you have a folding saw, that is one thing, but you still have to make a suitable baton, so there are five things to do for the initial ONE split: Cut both ends with a saw to prepare ONE split, and also cut both ends of the baton after spending half an hour to find it (plus carving an acceptable grip on it, so maybe six things to do), so finding it plus four cross-grain cuts minimums before you can even get started...

I have no problem with batoning itself as an occasional emergency back-up technique to get to dry wood, but I do have a problem with the amount of preparation it requires as a "routine" technique: Usually fire or shelter building deals with diameters that don't require splitting. I mean, splitting is for at least 4" diameters: That stuff where I live (Canada) is always rotten on the ground, so you are taking down a 10-12 foot live tree for a fire?

I would just de-limb the bottom of live trees for a fire, and shelter building doesn't require splitting anything 4" or over, so all batoning is good for is really big fires with lots of very large split logs... The thing is, even a wet forest will have the lower branches dry because they dry faster from being smaller: You start a fire with smaller diameter, then the fire you get will dry the other branches as you add them to it...

I have to say the more I think about it, the less batoning makes any sense to me... One of the few rational arguments I heard about it is that is saves on the edge, but looking at all the broken knives I'm beginning to wonder... Also the grain in the wood twists the blade, or there can be an inner knot, so you never know what might happen: I'd stick with chopping smaller diameters...

I think batoning is basically all about making a small knife do big knife tasks, and that has long ago been dismissed: It is the other way around that works...

Gaston
 
#25 ·
I have spent as much time in the wood as many people, and around here I have never found a piece of wood lying around that was suitable for use as a baton, even if allowing for one cross-grain cut for shortening it...

A baton here always involve much searching and preparation...

Anything on the forest floor is always either too thin, too thick or too rotten, no exceptions, EEEEVer...

The way I see it, a useful baton is something you have to manufacture out of something big, or bring it with you...

Also batoning to cut cross-grain is a big effort, more than likely it will do some edge damage, and if you don't do that, where are you going to get the square-cut wood to split? So then you have to prepare the wood by cutting it square with a folding saw... Well... I you have a folding saw, that is one thing, but you still have to make a suitable baton, so there are five things to do for the initial ONE split: Cut both ends with a saw to prepare ONE split, and also cut both ends of the baton after spending half an hour to find it (plus carving an acceptable grip on it, so maybe six things to do), so finding it plus four cross-grain cuts minimums before you can even get started...

I have no problem with batoning itself as an occasional emergency back-up technique to get to dry wood, but I do have a problem with the amount of preparation it requires as a "routine" technique: Usually fire or shelter building deals with diameters that don't require splitting. I mean, splitting is for at least 4" diameters: That stuff where I live (Canada) is always rotten on the ground, so you are taking down a 10-12 foot live tree for a fire?

I would just de-limb the bottom of live trees for a fire, and shelter building doesn't require splitting anything 4" or over, so all batoning is good for is really big fires with lots of very large split logs... The thing is, even a wet forest will have the lower branches dry because they dry faster from being smaller: You start a fire with smaller diameter, then the fire you get will dry the other branches as you add them to it...

I have to say the more I think about it, the less batoning makes any sense to me... One of the few rational arguments I heard about it is that is saves on the edge, but looking at all the broken knives I'm beginning to wonder... Also the grain in the wood twists the blade, or there can be an inner knot, so you never know what might happen: I'd stick with chopping smaller diameters...

I think batoning is basically all about making a small knife do big knife tasks, and that has long ago been dismissed: It is the other way around that works...

Gaston
That was 6 years ago and I did change my mind slightly about batoning. The advantage as I see it is that it creates sharp edges in the wood that catch fire better. This is important as forests are often moist. The sharp edges and exposed inner wood also makes the fire less smoky, and this is a big deal as these particles hurt the eyes and seem to seek you around. These are valid reasons for splitting even small diameter fire fuel. Other than that it is a bit hard on the blade, especially going bigger than the thinnest diameter worth splitting, since what the grain is doing to the edge can be unpredictable. I would say it is a small, valid part of knife use, but to be avoided if the forest is not too wet, and small low dry branches are available.
 
#12 ·
Batoning is not hard on any knife and nowhere near abusive. All of that is up to the user, has nothing to do with the knifes limitations, but a clueless user will destroy any knife quick if they watched a YouTube video and went to the backyard to try it.



No straight cut squared off end. No chopping block. No super high end mandatory super steel knife. Just a lowly $8.00 Hultafors safety knife. On a February 2015 winter hike my son wanted a fire to warm up. It was 13F. So I told him you want a fire, then you build it, you know how.

He knows you don't push down as you strike, he knows you don't lay the blade across the log or branch and go full on hulk smash hit the spine. He knows you lightly tap it until the spine is past the end of the wood.

I've seen 3V (gasps) get a bent edge by a know it all who went full hulk on dense non rotted dry Hickory. You just don't lay a blade on some wood and bash away, that's not batoning.

As to cross grain.



If you know what you are doing then that lowly Buck in 420HC will cross grain baton through a sapling in the way of your shooting lane 10X faster than you read your super steel chopper will chop it down. In both cases, chopping or batoning, you need to be taught how it's done, not just read some online posts or watch some YouTube videos then do it.

I don't care if someone else uses different tools. I carry different things at different times but I didn't have an axe with me or a saw so I cross batoned properly down the offending obstruction. Was actually no big issue or controversy at the scene. Just a chore that needed taking care of and a chore that got taken care of.

If you have been taught how to do it and know how to do it without damaging tools then do it.

Heck, I used a Glock filed knife constantly for 11 years to do "bushcraft". I never knew it was called bushcraft or batoning until I looked for new woods tools in late 2014 online. What I did know was someone taught me right. I can easily say I have never broken a knife batoning, chopping or any kind of woods work. I even have a 7" long 3/16" thin D2 knife I baton with that has given me zero problems. I've even watched it flex back and forth going through knotted up wood. I'm sure someone else could have easily broken any blade in the same piece of wood. Then posted here about it.

Little bit of D2 flex.



I was listening to the wood snap crackle and pop as the grains of wood released their grip from one another. You'd be amazed at how 30 seconds of letting the wedge effect split the wood makes it so much easier on them thicker logs or branches.
 
#14 ·
Batoning is not hard on any knife and nowhere near abusive. All of that is up to the user, has nothing to do with the knifes limitations, but a clueless user will destroy any knife quick if they watched a YouTube video and went to the backyard to try it.



No straight cut squared off end. No chopping block. No super high end mandatory super steel knife. Just a lowly $8.00 Hultafors safety knife. On a February 2015 winter hike my son wanted a fire to warm up. It was 13F. So I told him you want a fire, then you build it, you know how.

He knows you don't push down as you strike, he knows you don't lay the blade across the log or branch and go full on hulk smash hit the spine. He knows you lightly tap it until the spine is past the end of the wood.

I've seen 3V (gasps) get a bent edge by a know it all who went full hulk on dense non rotted dry Hickory. You just don't lay a blade on some wood and bash away, that's not batoning.

As to cross grain.



If you know what you are doing then that lowly Buck in 420HC will cross grain baton through a sapling in the way of your shooting lane 10X faster than you read your super steel chopper will chop it down. In both cases, chopping or batoning, you need to be taught how it's done, not just read some online posts or watch some YouTube videos then do it.

I don't care if someone else uses different tools. I carry different things at different times but I didn't have an axe with me or a saw so I cross batoned properly down the offending obstruction. Was actually no big issue or controversy at the scene. Just a chore that needed taking care of and a chore that got taken care of.

If you have been taught how to do it and know how to do it without damaging tools then do it.

Heck, I used a Glock filed knife constantly for 11 years to do "bushcraft". I never knew it was called bushcraft or batoning until I looked for new woods tools in late 2014 online. What I did know was someone taught me right. I can easily say I have never broken a knife batoning, chopping or any kind of woods work. I even have a 7" long 3/16" thin D2 knife I baton with that has given me zero problems. I've even watched it flex back and forth going through knotted up wood. I'm sure someone else could have easily broken any blade in the same piece of wood. Then posted here about it.

Little bit of D2 flex.



I was listening to the wood snap crackle and pop as the grains of wood released their grip from one another. You'd be amazed at how 30 seconds of letting the wedge effect split the wood makes it so much easier on them thicker logs or branches.

Your one of the very few ppl on here who know there is more to batoning than just splitting logs.

I do baton lots of things but very rarely do I split wood unless there is a dire need :thumb:

For all of you who don't understand what I just said here's a video that might help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxqpGCkrF8g
 
#13 ·

Over 6 years of Hard Use and batoning, and its never damaged or changed the function if Gzilla. Gaston's right, I've always had to make my baton sticks, since everything on the ground is usually rotten, lest you use a large piece of fat lighter

Sent from my XT830C using Tapatalk
 
#17 ·
You tube is full of videos of ppl acting like they know what they are doing who truly don't have a clue. But there are some out there that are truly trying to help teach ppl :thumb:

One of my knives the coating is wearing off. Did you strip the blade 1st to completely remove any remaining coating before soaking it? How long did you soak it? Does it matter what type of vinegar? I've heard of this trick, but I've just never done it myself.

I think a lot of ppl on this forums can learn a lot form you. I hope you choose to stay a while and share your knowledge with us all ;)
 
#18 ·
I used some sand paper, don't remember the grit, to take off some minor spots. It wasn't much. Then degreased with brake cleaner.

I used Heinz distilled white vinegar and let it sit in it (blade only) cold for 3.5 hours. Ran it in blazing hot water for about 5 minutes then let it air dry which don't take long when the blade is hot. Put a coating of very light oil on the blade and touched up the edge to remove the black.

Was pretty simple and straight forward. I've seen more than a few done but that was also my first time doing it. From watching friends do it, the results are always individual to the blade. It's no big deal if you use it as they all develope their own unique wear patterns. Best part is when it does wear there is that dark gray still protecting.
 
#20 ·
We all know that guy who has a heavy duty large truck. They constantly tell you how it can haul a 27' 5th wheel boat or super luxury 5th wheel camper. Always talking about load capacity, towing poundage, horse power and torque numbers.

Then the first time you go to a BBQ at their place you notice no camper or 27' boat. They don't hunt or fish. The truck literally at most hauls milk and bread from the local super Walmart.

Some people have no actual use for a knife of any kind and absolutely no clue how to use one, but they won't hesitate to make a video and tell you exactly what you can't do with your lesser knife.

Then they break the premium grade knife. And they are the ones people listen to?

Ok.
 
#21 ·
I always thought the right tool for the right job?^^^
I would use a tomahawk or log splitter at home, out in the wild i guess you dont want to carry all that weight.
I imagine you would want a very big and sturdy knife for batoning, i always thought one just didnt do that with knives full stop, that its out of there use parameters?
Not professing to know.
Some of the huge 30+cm fork-off survival knives could probably take it.
 
#23 ·
I have a RATK 1. large hunk of sharp steel. one of the few blades i have ever bought that still retains its stock scales. perfect fit for my hands.

I put the 1 thru a workout that made sure it wasnt substandard before i went to all tha trouble to make a sheath.

only thing I didnt like about it was the short serrated area, But i can live with that
 

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#24 ·
That is a big beast, love it!!^
Jeez youve done a great job on the sheath gx.:thumb:

After reading this thread, ive kind of changed my mind on batoning.:thumb:
the last time i did it was with a hammer lol, with some old meat cleaver i had.
worked, hehe.

p.s. i can tell by your fingers your a real do-er like me, not afraid to get your cigar butts dirty with work or crafting.:thumb:
 
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