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Well pump, expansion tank and Cycle Stop Valve "review"

24K views 68 replies 12 participants last post by  Valveman 
#1 ·
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jANyiSSWD9U

The video shows the operation starting at the 4 minute mark. Check it out.


My Florida home has a shallow well, 2HP, 3 stage, high pressure water pump and good sized expansion tank. Even so, the pump would cycle all the time during showers and during moderate water use.

I learned about "Cycle Stop Valves" and installed one.

Analogy: It throttles the water pump, in much the same way an automobile engine is throttled. Rather than drive down the road by full power/coast/full power/coast cycles. It throttles the output and maintains a set, specified, pressure. In my case, 87PSI.

This prevents the pump from constantly cycling on/off/on/off during modest water use. During any water use, from a single faucet, to all six shower heads, pressure is maintained and the pump remains on.

Interestingly, the electrical draw is much lower, with low flow rates. Electrical draw goes from 10 A, down to 3.5 A at low flow. While I make no claims of energy savings, running the pump at low loads is not consuming as much as during high flow.

A 2HP, high pressure well pump is hard on "pump switches" and fries the contacts quickly. As most switches are for smaller pumps. So this is an interesting solution.

Better yet, my water pressure remains perfectly constant without the constant cycling during a shower. I'm very happy with it. I hope that the reduced flow rate drags up less sand from my well too. Time will tell.

I hope it lasts. They are supposed to be trouble free.

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/index2.html

This is the one I purchased:

 
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#8 ·
Thanks for your concern. However, as an engineer, I do understand exactly how my expansion tank works, how many gallons it produces each "draw" and how to set the pressure.


I also clearly understand how to determine if the pressure tank is operating properly.

As you may guess, when running 6 showerheads in a 2 person shower, it's easy to draw down the 12 available gallons rather rapidly from my 60 gallon well-mate tank.

And, before you say, "you should have more than 12 gallons draw down". That's not so at my 100PSI shut off point. The higher the water (and air pressure) the fewer gallons "DRAW" that are available.

Also, as you might expect, I don't set the pump switch for a wide spread of pressure. I hate pressure swings.

As far as the amp draw, I have a "clamp" over type AC ammeter, that works only on a single wire. Because the CSV throttles the pump the amp draw may be slightly lower.

Note: a CSV is a restriction and will reduce max working pressure by about 5-7 PSI (not max fill pressure to the tank though) .
 
#64 ·
It's been 4 years since you posted this. Do you still feel the CSV is good? How long has it been in your system? My pressure tank failed and I came across CSV when doing research. I'm ready to install one here at my house. I love the idea of steady water pressure instead of the fluctuations. Thanks
 
#5 ·
Granted I've never heard of these devices let alone used one, I can't comment on them. But it does sound like either your pressure tank or pressure switch is not functioning right. It should not be cycling constantly if you have a 20psi range on your pressure switch, which is the normal range, especially with a good size pressure tank. If I remember correctly, my little 20 gallon pressure tank has something like a 5 gallon drawdown, meaning at full pressure I can use 5 gallons before the pump kicks on again.

It may be worth checking your empty tank psi to give you an idea. Shut your pump off and open a faucet until you run out of water and then check the tank psi with a tire pressure gauge. It should be about 2 psi less than what your cut in pressure is on your pressure switch. Ex. Pressure switch is 40cut in, 60 cut out, the pressure in your pressure tank should be 38 when empty.

Also 2hp seems very big for a shallow well. How deep is your well? Around here the wells don't get much deeper than 100ft and 3/4hp is plenty fine for that for residential use.
 
#6 ·
I installed a "on demand/tankless" water heater several years ago. My biggest complaint about it is that it's response time "at times" can be very slow.

This I believe is caused by it's built in safeties that monitor input (water) pressure and temp.

I suspect that a CSV would/could be a fix to this issue.



despite the slow response of the tankless water heater... it's the only way to go!

ALSO.. I agree, a 2hp shallow well pump sound very large. We have a 3/4hp shallow well pump, I have no idea how deep our well is.
 
#12 ·
ALSO.. I agree, a 2hp shallow well pump sound very large. We have a 3/4hp shallow well pump, I have no idea how deep our well is.
Yes, we had a 1.5HP 2 stage pump and it was insufficient when running 6 shower heads. Hence the 2 HP Goulds pump. An HSJ20N pump, which really works well.

 
#7 ·
I went to the web site and I'm not sure how it works either, but if my well pump started drawing 3 amps instead of the usual 10 amps, I would be worried. Something doesn't sound right. I thought well pumps simply pumped at a constant rate. It takes a certain amount of power to pump at that rate.

What is the point of pumping less water anyhow?
 
#10 ·
The point is to stop the pump from cycling on/off. But instead to throttle it. My analogy above is fairly accurate.

As far as electrical load, water pumps (and many air pumps) draw less current when they are throttled. As they are doing less work. You can demonstrate this by blocking a fan/blower, such as a vacuum cleaner. It speeds up as the loads decrease. And the amp draw decreases. You have "throttled" it.
 
#11 ·
It throttles the pump output by moving an internal valve towards the closed position.

The output of the CSV is ported to the pressure tank, and then to the house.

The reason the pump does not shut off, is that the pressure "pick up point" for the switch is downstream of the CSV.

By the way, I am very pleased with the result!!!!
 
#14 ·
OK since I've demo's the Cycle Stop Valve and have been banned from several forums by Cary Austin (CSV vice president) for explaining how the CSV works (Terri Love and others) and does not need to be used on anything other than an agricultural well, here's the low down.

1. Yes it does use less current, but it uses twice the amount of power to pump the same amount of water, it runs all the time.

2. It is a simple pressure control valve with a notch cut into the valve plate, so it leaks and continues to provide flow. If the pressure goes down the valve opens more to allow more flow, when it reaches the set point it slows down but the pump continues to run.

3. It causes your pump to build up pressures that are off of the pump providers spec sheets, good/bad you decide.

4. It can build up pressures that exceed the max pressure of your poly drop pipe.

5. In my testing my power usage went up from $10.00/month to $20.00/month, I had it on 2 1/3 hp pumps in parallel off of a storage tank.

Not a lot of power increase, I wasn't worried about my drop pipe since it was not in the equation. But when SHTF you want all the power you can conserve.

Now the claim is it saves your bladder tank from needing to be replaced as often, in my case I was paying $120.00 more in electric/year, 5 years of use would have been more than enough to buy a new tank.

Your milage may vary.

Rancher
 
#15 ·
1. Yes it does use less current, but it uses twice the amount of power to pump the same amount of water, it runs all the time.

2. It is a simple pressure control valve with a notch cut into the valve plate,

3. It causes your pump to build up pressures that are off of the pump providers spec sheets, good/bad you decide.

4. It can build up pressures that exceed the max pressure of your poly drop pipe.
1) It does not run all the time. Only when drawing more than 1 GPM. And only after the pressure tank depletes to the cut-on pressure.

2) In my case, there is no notch in the valve. It's simply prevented from fully closing to the shut off position.

3) I put a gauge directly on the pump. It operates at 105. Well within the normal operating range for this (3 stage) jet pump on a shallow well. And well within this pump's specifications.

4) The CSV is directly on the pump via a 2 inch stub of iron pipe. No problems there. Also, 1 inch schedule 40 is good for 270 PSI, with a burst pressure of 1440, So no risk there. The pump is incapable of such pressures.

The bottom line is that it works well in my application.
 
#23 ·
343

The only way I can think of an electric water pump reducing running amps is if the water flow being pumped is stopped or slowed. When this happens the pumped water becomes static. The pump then just "unloads". The pump is then either pumping a just small amount or no longer pumping water, thus reducing the full load amperage of the motor.
We find this in frozen water laterals. The pump starts and runs but has no "load" no water to pump. Resulting in a lower amperage reading.
I can't say this will hurt the pump per se as I've had pumps running constantly all winter in seasonal homes that where not winterized properly.
 
#24 ·
I can't say this will hurt the pump per se as I've had pumps running constantly all winter in seasonal homes that where not winterized properly.
No it probably doesn't hurt the pump unless it overheats the pump, only if it has a drop pipe and is submersible then you may have a problem, and of course it runs all the time so there is the electrical use.

Rancher
 
#27 ·
That's exactly the point. Because of my high pressure and high volume requirements, I would need an absolutely HUGE expansion tank to keep pump cycling to a minimum. Remember, high pressure means much less "draw down" on a given size tank.

I have a 60 gallon Well-Mate tank. To get the pump to cycle every 3 minutes during a shower would require 2ea 120 gallon expansion tanks. That's big bucks. ( OMG, the 260 gallon tank is $4399! ) And, it's annoying when pressure drops.

Living with it for a while, I am extremely happy with how it functions in my configuration. 87PSI all the time. No pressure drop as pump no longer cycles during showers.
 
#42 ·
Just found this forum. Didn't know the "Rancher" was here or I would have joined a lot earlier so you could have had some accurate information on the CSV. I am the owner of the company and the inventor, so I think I know a little about it.

I want to thank akcooper and cujet for sharing their real life experiences with Cycle Stop Valves or CSV’s. It is funny their REAL LIFE experiences are just the opposite of what the “rancher” is trying to convince everyone will happen. The CSV doesn’t help on little pumps like the 1/3HP Rancher has, as it can barely pump enough for a small shower anyway. The function of the CSV is very noticeable and beneficial on larger pumps like the 2HP that cujet has.

I get a lot of different opinions about our web page. Some people thank me for the wealth of information provided, while others don’t seem to understand it at all. I think the ones who don’t understand are just thinking about it too hard. The CSV is just a simple valve, even though it has a complicated explanation. So when people say they don’t understand how it works, it is just a valve, it closes down when you need less water and opens up when you need more. Instead of having a handle on top that someone needs to manually close or open, it is operated by a spring and diaphragm, which pushes the valve open if the pressure drops below the spring pressure, and closes the valve when pressure gets above the spring pressure. The “trick” to the CSV is that it just cannot completely close. When you are not using any water, the pressure increases and the CSV closes as much as it can. But the smaller CSV’s only close down to 1 GPM. Since no one is using any water at the time, this 1 GPM has no place to go except the tank. Then the pressure tank fills to the shut off pressure of the pressure switch, which shuts the pump off.

On a standard water well or water pump application, the amount of water flowing is dependent on how much you are using. With the old pressure tank only system, the pump is always producing maximum flow, even when you are using a small amount of water, which is what causes the pump to fill the pressure tank and cycle on and off. The CSV only restricts the flow when you need it to do that. When you are only using one hose of water, the CSV makes the pump produce only one hose worth of flow. But if you open up a lot of water, the CSV will open up and give you as much as the pump can produce.

No the CSV is not magic, but a centrifugal impeller is. When the flow is restricted, the amp draw or power consumption naturally decreases. Not all pumps will decrease from 10 amps to 3.5 as the one cujet has. But many will decrease in amps by 50% and nearly all will decrease 20 to 30%. It is this “counter intuitive” property of any centrifugal pump that confuses people. You would think restricting a pump with a valve would make it work harder, when just the opposite is true.

And NO, the CSV will not shorten the life of a pump, it actually makes pumps last much longer. Cycling on and off is what destroys pumps, and a Cycle Stop Valve stops the cycling. The CSV takes pumps that people say have never lasted longer than 2-3 years, and has made them last 15-20 years so far, and they are still working. So if your pump has a cycling problem, as most pumps do, the CSV will extend the life of the pump by as much as 5 to 10 times. We would not still be in business after 24 years if anyone could confirm even a single pump being damaged by a CSV.

I hope I have answered all the questions posed in this thread.

Just read our reviews and references if you want to know how good they work. And call me if you have any questions, as it is best to talk to someone who knows what they are doing instead. We stand behind our products. Always have, always will. Thanks Cary
 
#45 ·
Just found this forum. Didn't know the "Rancher" was here or I would have joined a lot earlier so you could have had some accurate information on the CSV. I am the owner of the company and the inventor, so I think I know a little about it.

I want to thank akcooper and cujet for sharing their real life experiences with Cycle Stop Valves or CSV’s. It is funny their REAL LIFE experiences are just the opposite of what the “rancher” is trying to convince everyone will happen. The CSV doesn’t help on little pumps like the 1/3HP Rancher has, as it can barely pump enough for a small shower anyway. I'm certainly not speaking for "Rancher" but I have a 1/3hp pump that pumps 1680gpm @ ten feet. That's a lot of water for a shower. Besides that, I think he said that he had TWO 1/3 pumps, for a total of 2/3rds hp? The function of the CSV is very noticeable and beneficial on larger pumps like the 2HP that cujet has.

I get a lot of different opinions about our web page. Some people thank me for the wealth of information provided, while others don’t seem to understand it at all. I think the ones who don’t understand are just thinking about it too hard. The CSV is just a simple valve, even though it has a complicated explanation. So when people say they don’t understand how it works, it is just a valve, it closes down when you need less water and opens up when you need more. Instead of having a handle on top that someone needs to manually close or open, it is operated by a spring and diaphragm, which pushes the valve open if the pressure drops below the spring pressure, and closes the valve when pressure gets above the spring pressure. The “trick” to the CSV is that it just cannot completely close. When you are not using any water, the pressure increases and the CSV closes as much as it can. But the smaller CSV’s only close down to 1 GPM. Since no one is using any water at the time, this 1 GPM has no place to go except the tank. Then the pressure tank fills to the shut off pressure of the pressure switch, which shuts the pump off.

On a standard water well or water pump application, the amount of water flowing is dependent on how much you are using. flow rate = amount used" Is that the same as.." you get what you pay for"? With the old pressure tank only system, the pump is always producing maximum flow, even when you are using a small amount of water, which is what causes the pump to fill the pressure tank and cycle on and off. The CSV only restricts the flow when you need it to do that. When you are only using one hose of water, the CSV makes the pump produce only one hose worth of flow. But if you open up a lot of water, the CSV will open up and give you as much as the pump can produce.

No the CSV is not magic, but a centrifugal impeller is. Did you just say that? you build magical centrifugal impellers? Is there any chance that the magic you use might be hacked, and used for a different application. ? When the flow is restricted, the amp draw or power consumption naturally decreases. Not all pumps will decrease from 10 amps to 3.5 as the one cujet has. But many will decrease in amps by 50% and nearly all will decrease 20 to 30%. It is this “counter intuitive” property of any centrifugal pump that confuses people. You would think restricting a pump with a valve would make it work harder, when just the opposite is true.

And NO, the CSV will not shorten the life of a pump, it actually makes pumps last much longer. Cycling on and off is what destroys pumps, and a Cycle Stop Valve stops the cycling. The CSV takes pumps that people say have never lasted longer than 2-3 years, and has made them last 15-20 years so far, and they are still working. So if your pump has a cycling problem, as most pumps do, the CSV will extend the life of the pump by as much as 5 to 10 times. We would not still be in business after 24 years if anyone could confirm even a single pump being damaged by a CSV.

I hope I have answered all the questions posed in this thread.

Just read our reviews and references if you want to know how good they work. And call me if you have any questions, as it is best to talk to someone who knows what they are doing instead. We stand behind our products. Always have, always will. Thanks Cary


When you say your valve isn't for small systems/hp. Is this based on cost vs return on investment?

I have a shallow well pump. It's a 3/4hp "Jet pump". (it's located in our basement and I can hear the bearings singing to me... "replace me")

Our main problem here is our Bosch Tankless Water heater doesn't play well with our varying well pressure. The water heater has a number of "software safeties" looking at flow rate in vs pressure and inlet temp vs temp on the outlet. There are times when it takes a "long time" for the hot water to turn on (and reach the Faucet).

You think your valve could resolve this response time problem?
 
#43 ·
Thanks Valveman for chiming in.

I make no claims to be anything but average intelligence. Even so, as an engineer in the aviation world, this is child's play to me. It's easy to understand why it works so well in my application. I'm 100% certain others can benefit too.

To say that I'm thrilled is an understatement. I posted my review, not to argue with others about what they believe, but in an attempt at highlighting the advantages.

Advantage: The well pump start up current strains my generator. The CSV limits the pump starts to a grand total of ONE, when showering solo or during other minor water usage.

Advantage: 87PSI of constant water pressure is a wonderful thing from my shallow well setup.

Advantage: Pump switches last much longer. As a 2HP pump is hard on non commercial well pump switches.

I unfortunately neglected to mention that we have a luxury 2 person shower. Prior to the CSV, when we used both sides, (his and hers, 6 showerheads) , the pump was at capacity and the pump never cycled. HOWEVER, when showering solo, it was infuriating to me, as the pressure swings were beyond my tolerance...
 
#46 ·
HOWEVER, when showering solo, it was infuriating to me, as the pressure swings were beyond my tolerance...
Thanks cujet! Those pressure swings in the shower from the pump cycling on and off are very annoying to me as well. Not only do I not like the varying pressure, but I cringe when it happens from knowing how bad it is for my pump.

Most people only run a 40/60 pressure switch for a house. However, I have set up house pump systems at really high pressures for things like those multiple shower heads or when the house is multi-story or high up on a hill.

Many people will say they do not notice the varying pressure from the pump cycling, I think they are just use to it. Because when they get a CSV and the cycling goes away, then they say they never realized how bad the varying pressure was until they experienced real constant pressure.

Most will say they have never had such strong pressure in the shower. I even hear funny replies like "I don't even need soap in the shower anymore, the strong pressure just blast the dirt off". And the pressure seems stronger even though we did not increase the pressure from the 40/60 pressure switch setting. All we did was put in a CSV that holds a steady and constant 50 PSI for as long as the shower is on. And the constant 50 PSI seems like much stronger pressure than the average 50 PSI you receive as a pump is continually cycling on and off between 40 and 60.
 
#58 ·
As an engineer, I have a difficult time socially. Most of it stems from the fact that people do not understand what I say. I'm reasonably articulate, kind and considerate. However, the vast majority of people really don't understand basic science. Not to mention something as simple as a pump with a regulating valve, driven by a continuous duty motor.

A very large number of people really do think they understand why things work. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In fact, most humans confuse social smarts and scientific prowess. They can, and will, argue a point Ad Infinitum, while completely misunderstanding the most basic of technical concepts.

Any discussion about bearing life, without discussing MTBF, design lifespan, operating conditions, temperature swings, seal failure, moisture intrusion and lubrication failure, is incomplete. Maybe even including the mistaken assumption that a bearing has a finite number of revolutions before failure. Nothing could be further from the truth.

A common example of motor anti-friction (ball) bearing failure has to do with poor design. An induction motor is chock-a-block full of a rotating magnetic field. Sometimes a small current is induced between the case and rotor, causing electrical arcing and micro-welding in the ball and roller bearings. Those bearings have won't last as long as they should, when installed in a poorly designed motor.

But, we'd be happy to blame something else for the premature failure, without ever addressing the real problem.
 
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#59 ·
As an engineer, I have a difficult time socially. Most of it stems from the fact that people do not understand what I say. I'm reasonably articulate, kind and considerate. However, the vast majority of people really don't understand basic science. ...
I have found that it is always more difficult to deal with people that are reasonably smart and do understand some basics. The inventor of this valve is of this camp. He knows enough to concoct what seems like a valid scientific explanation but all the time knowing it is being used to confuse those that does not have his level of intelligence. The key is to understand to look for contradictions and claims that can not be proven but rely on popular ideas.

Incidentally, I can buy the notion of currents being introduced into a motors casing and possible bearing failure. How often that might occur would require fairly intensive research however before you could claim it was actually happening. To go from there and create a device that you were selling to prevent premature bearing failure due to stray currents would be analogous to the claim of CSV inventor in reference to prolonged pump life from using his device.

To put it simply, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
 
#60 ·
Oh boy! Look at all the fun I missed!

Since it was I (I'm pretty sure) brought up "bearing life" in jet water pumps let me.. add my 2 cents.

I've stated in many other threads that we have a "wet basement". For those who haven't seen those posts I'll give a quick version. Our basement is "always" wet. it goes from really damp.. to wet ... to very wet... to "Lake Basement".

Our "shallow well jet pump" Over the last 20 years or so I think I've replaced it about 5 times. Each time I replaced it because (being in our basement) it simply was "screeching" to loud.

The pump still pumped.
The pump wasn't leaking.
The pressure switch was still working.

I'm sure that "due to the environment" and my low tolerance to "high pitched noise" pump life seen here is so short.

Also, these are (at about $300.00) relatively cheap. (Red Lion 3/4hp)


Without a doubt, these pumps could be made with better bearings/seals and last much longer.

I am not convinced that it's the frequency of cycles or some sort of an electrolysis action.

I suspect that it's the failure of the seal and drying out / breakdown of the grease, main culprit time and a damp environment.

The motors on these pumps have high rpm and small shaft size means those balls in those bearings are very small, which means they have to spin pretty fast.

And speaking of pump failures.. every automotive water pump I replaced failed due to bearings/seals. Guess they use cheap bearings too.


Just had a thought, I wonder if one of those magical impellers was used in an automotive water pump.. someone could make a lot of money!


Getting back on subject, while I'm sure restricting water flow could cause the motor to consume less power, it's hard for me to believe that this valve can drop start up current to 1 amp. The term "start up" current normally implies that this is the "peak current" and current is expected to drop to it's "normal run" value.

If the start up current has dropped to 1 amp, what is now the normal running amperage?
 
#61 ·
Getting back on subject, while I'm sure restricting water flow could cause the motor to consume less power, it's hard for me to believe that this valve can drop start up current to 1 amp. The term "start up" current normally implies that this is the "peak current" and current is expected to drop to it's "normal run" value.

If the start up current has dropped to 1 amp, what is now the normal running amperage?


I missed where anyone claimed that start up current is reduced. If I did so, or even implied that, I absolutely apologize. Clearly, my 2HP well pump's start up current is unchanged by the CSV.

What has changed is the number of times the pump starts during use. This is a big benefit when operating "off grid" on generator power, like I do from time to time. I generally use my "Listeroid" generator. But I also have a commercial Subaru generator, 2 Honda generators and a cheapie HF unit.

 
#62 ·
Had to go back and look, guess it was a bit confusion on my part (perhaps you're a bit to blame too *L*).


Back a page you said this .... "Advantage: The well pump start up current strains my generator. The CSV limits the pump starts to a grand total of ONE, when showering solo or during other minor water usage."

First sentence you talk current, then next you said starts a grand total of one.


Just thought you meant "a grand total of one amp"
 
#65 ·
It would be interesting to see honest follow up from people that bought this idea years ago and put it into practice versus the person that hawked selling the gadget. My simple water pump and pressure tank from 21 years ago is still functioning. Does mean the water pressure cycles from 30-50psi.
 
#69 ·
Another 3-4 years has past. That makes a total of 27 years the Cycle Stop Valve has been making people's pumps last longer and deliver strong constant pressure to the showers. If you are the kind of person who doesn't want to know anything and just lets the local pump man do whatever he thinks best, then you are not a candidate for a Cycle Stop Valve. If you are the kind of person who thinks they already know everything because your pump or your uncles pump has lasted 21 years, then you are also not a candidate for a CSV. The only people who appreciate Cycle Stop Valves are those that take the time to educate themselves on how pumps really work.

Those that do not understand how things works will say stuff like, "So it has been running continuously the whole time?" NO, no, and no. And if you don't know how it works you shouldn't act like you do.

And just so you don't have to hear it from the "guy who hawked selling the gadget", hear are a few hundred reviews from people who have a CSV and actually know how they work.

https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews
 
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