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Old 08-31-2019, 04:54 PM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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... It's my understanding that several of the corrupted practices were changed and resolved over the yrs, so that today's Catholic church is different than the one in 1517?
How is the Catholic Church different than the one in 1517?
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Old 08-31-2019, 05:00 PM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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Luther stood up to the most corrupt institution of it's day. He was a professor of biblical interpretation at the University of Wittenberg in Germany when he drew up his 95 theses condemning the jaw-dropping corrupt Catholic Church for its corrupt practice of actually selling indulgences and the forgiveness of sins.
Please cite Catholic Church doctrine which reflected its alleged "practice of actually selling indulgences and the forgiveness of sins."
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Old 08-31-2019, 05:05 PM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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... I told my kids, too, that the Catholic church had changed, too....that the people being able to read the Bible for themselves
How has the Catholic Church changed with regard to Catholics being able to read the Bible for themselves?

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helped change things that had been twisted. ...
What things were changed that had been twisted?
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Old 08-31-2019, 05:31 PM
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Perhaps so. Please cite page number so I can zero in on the so-called reformers to which you refer.
William Tyndale for one, about pg 350. More listed. BTW you seem to be Firebird reincarnated
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Old 08-31-2019, 05:42 PM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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William Tyndale for one, about pg 350. More listed. BTW you seem to be Firebird reincarnated
What were Foxe's sources for his account of Tyndale, or was Foxe an eye-witness to what he wrote of Tyndale?
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Old 08-31-2019, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by zooeyhll View Post
The great historian Will Durant wrote that the Reformation actually marked the end of the Middle Ages in Europe.

With the monopoly of the Catholic Church ended, people started to think more for themselves. The Reformation also broke the tradition that the common people were not to challenge governments and royal authority. This led to an increase in democratic movements in Europe.

Many historians have said that the Reformation led directly to the Enlightenment of the 18th century.
yes!

Light pierced the darkness and Europe and the world were never the same.
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Old 08-31-2019, 06:02 PM
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What were Foxe's sources for his account of Tyndale, or was Foxe an eye-witness to what he wrote of Tyndale?
Is that you Firebird????
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Old 08-31-2019, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Trogshak View Post
How is the Catholic Church different than the one in 1517?
Do you pay your priest money for him to forgive your sins? Do you pay him a fee to get into heaven?

Do you get to read the Bible for yourself? Or do your church members seek your copy, and try to destroy it? Do they come to your home or business and run you out for having a copy? Do they chase you wherever you go, harrassing your family members and stealing your property because you dare have a Bible?

Do you get to question what the pope says? And if you do, do you get to stay alive, or do members of your church and state hunt you down and slit your throat?
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Old 08-31-2019, 07:24 PM
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Trog, the Bible being printed, and common people getting God's word....it changed everything. It changed Catholicism. Why do you think Luther was upset....so upset that he went against all that he had once believed? The priests were perverting God's Truth and selling His forgiveness and salvation. What God wanted to give us freely, they were making a fortune on. There's a story in the Bible of Eli's sons....and it reminds me of this. I don't really have much of an issue with Catholicism today, but the church was not following God's way very well back then. And they certainly killed men and women who simply wanted to read God's Word for themselves. In reading the Bible, they saw God. They saw Truth. And because of that, today's Catholic church, and its people, are better.

I'm in no way against you, Catholics, or the Catholic church. But what is today is vastly different than what was.....and the dark ages are called that because there wasn't much of God shining through. I'm sorry if the idea of the reformation feels hurtful. But from that hurt....the catholic church became more Light-filled and godly. And what a blessing that is.
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Old 08-31-2019, 07:32 PM
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Please cite Catholic Church doctrine which reflected its alleged "practice of actually selling indulgences and the forgiveness of sins."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/indulgence
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Old 08-31-2019, 07:49 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is online now
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Martin Luther took up and finished what William Ockham started. I cannot decide did he lack what Luther had or was the time right. I do believe Martin Luther was influenced by William Ockham's writings. [No real evidence except for the works of each and what is now Germany.]
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Old 08-31-2019, 07:56 PM
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ON THE JEWS AND THEIR LIES" written by Martin Luther.

An incredible piece. Not easy to find. Highly recommended reading.

Martin Luther was a great man.
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Old 08-31-2019, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by zooeyhll View Post
Recently watched the movie "Luther" starring Joseph Fiennes.
I love that movie! And I strongly recommend it to everyone.

Regarding the guts of Luther; most people today have no concept of the struggles people of the past endured. For instance, about 2 decades ago I read a personal letter Abigal Adams wrote to her husband, John Adams, while he was in France as our revolutionary war minister, hoping to convince France to aid America in its war of independence.

Just to summarize the significance of this; France gave America MORE than 90% of its fire arms and gun powder! Think of what would have happened to the rag-tag colonies if they only had 10% of what they ended up with?

Anyway, in this personal letter Abigal was sharing with her husband the struggles the family had on the farm during his long absence. As a throw away statement, she happened to mention with good humor, the morning she wrote the letter, the water bowl kept in the bedroom, in lieu of indoor plumbing not being invented yet. This water bowl had turned to ice by morning!

How cold must it have been in the future First Ladies bedroom for her water bowl to freeze?

Human beings of the past endured tremendous hardships. Today people have to invent things to rail against, such as being offended that you used a certain pronoun!

I believe the movie was accurate that Luther was thrust into a predicament due to the invention by Guttenberg; the printing press was used to take his 95 theses and turn it into the gossip of the country. That is, Luther never intended his theological critiques to have the social and religious upheaval that it did.

However, once the fuse was lit, he stood his ground. A hero. A man to admire and emulate.


I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen.
― Martin Luther, defies the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at the Diet of Worms, 1521
Luther was declared an outlaw and a heretic
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Old 08-31-2019, 08:33 PM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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Originally Posted by JenFred View Post
It's my understanding that several of the corrupted practices were changed and resolved over the yrs, so that today's Catholic church is different than the one in 1517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trogshak View Post
How is the Catholic Church different than the one in 1517?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JenFred View Post
Do you pay your priest money for him to forgive your sins? Do you pay him a fee to get into heaven?

Do you get to read the Bible for yourself? Or do your church members seek your copy, and try to destroy it? Do they come to your home or business and run you out for having a copy? Do they chase you wherever you go, harrassing your family members and stealing your property because you dare have a Bible?

Do you get to question what the pope says? And if you do, do you get to stay alive, or do members of your church and state hunt you down and slit your throat?
Put down the pipe ... uh ... I mean Chick Comic and address with primary source material how the Catholic Church of today is substantially different in doctrine than the Church of 1517.
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Old 08-31-2019, 08:40 PM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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Trog, the Bible being printed, and common people getting God's word....it changed everything. It changed Catholicism.
How was Catholicism changed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JenFred View Post
Why do you think Luther was upset....so upset that he went against all that he had once believed? The priests were perverting God's Truth and selling His forgiveness and salvation.
How were the priests perverting "God's Truth"? Cite the Catholic doctrine that sins and salvation could be sold.
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Old 08-31-2019, 08:43 PM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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Please cite Catholic Church doctrine which reflected its alleged "practice of actually selling indulgences and the forgiveness of sins."
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Originally Posted by JenFred View Post
No. That poorly written Britannica article is not a Catholic Church document reflecting the doctrine of indulgences.
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Old 08-31-2019, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
Martin Luther took up and finished what William Ockham started. I cannot decide did he lack what Luther had or was the time right. I do believe Martin Luther was influenced by William Ockham's writings. [No real evidence except for the works of each and what is now Germany.]
What did William of Ockham start that Luther finished?
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Old 08-31-2019, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by zooeyhll View Post
The great historian Will Durant wrote that the Reformation actually marked the end of the Middle Ages in Europe.

With the monopoly of the Catholic Church ended, people started to think more for themselves. The Reformation also broke the tradition that the common people were not to challenge governments and royal authority. This led to an increase in democratic movements in Europe.
What volume/chapter/page of Durant's work is this assessment made?

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Originally Posted by zooeyhll View Post
Many historians have said that the Reformation led directly to the Enlightenment of the 18th century.
Who are these many historians?
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Old 08-31-2019, 09:35 PM
JL1 JL1 is offline
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What were Foxe's sources for his account of Tyndale, or was Foxe an eye-witness to what he wrote of Tyndale?
Oh I know for sure now you are Firebird
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Old 08-31-2019, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by JenFred View Post
I would say that a man who grew up and chose to become a priest had a strong sense of Catholicism behind him. I believe that he loved the church, too. I am under the belief that he had hoped that the big catholic church would reform.....not that he was starting a new type of church. He was calling fellow priests and believers into correction with what the Bible actually said, vs some corrupt religious practices some were following at the time. It's my understanding that several of the corrupted practices were changed and resolved over the yrs, so that today's Catholic church is different than the one in 1517?
My medieval history course was my favorite of all the courses I took in college. My professor recently published a book on King Alfred the Great, which I just bought. Favorite professor too. He happens to be Jewish by the way : )
He made history fun - like showing us scenes form movies about knights and castles to illustrate real things that happened in the middle ages. He even included clips from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" which opens showing a group of monks walking in a row through the streets of the town, chanting and hitting themselves in the head with a book every few paces.

I also believe Luther was acting out of some good motivations, and was not initially hoping to start a new church. He was aiming primarily at reform as you say. Many of his 95 "Theses" had merit. Luther also did have a lot of personal problems too, and wrestled with unbelief, and at times, his sanity, through much of his life. He also did not believe the Church teaching about the priesthood and the Holy Eucharist - the central act of worship in the Catholic Church. This is denial of central teaching of the Faith, which makes me have to say he was NOT a good Catholic in later life - however devout he might have been as a child and young man. He also did not believe the whole Bible - and removed 7 books from it. The consequences for the faithful were catastrophic, as viewed through a catholic lens.

Yes, the Church did reform. A great council was called from 1545 to 1563 in Trent. Known as the Council of Trent, the bishops blamed themselves for the Reformation, and they instituted many reforms of practice. None of doctrine (beliefs) of which I'm aware. Among other things, they forbade the practice of selling indulgences, instituted new qualifications and training for the priesthood, and published a guide to all of the Catholic teaching - known as the Catechism of the Council of Trent. You can still buy a nice leatherbound copy of it on Amazon and at your local Catholic bookshop. The Catechism was not revised again until Pope John Paul II had the 2nd edition published - which is the version we use now. I know that other items of Luther's theses were also addressed, but can't remember which ones off the top of my head.

You'll have to be more specific about the "corrupt religious practices" which the Church was allegedly following at the time of Luther. Selling of indulgences was not a matter of belief - it was a corrupt practice which was not as widespread as is commonly reported. Again, if you read a good history by reputable historians, you'll find that they don't excuse the Church for things in the Middle Ages, but they do report the facts from actual records, and also contextualize them within the period of history which was quite barbaric and violent. The Church on the whole compares favorably with other secular institutions of the day. I maintain that today's Roman Catholic Church is essentially the same as in 1517, however certain things have changed - most notably the Church's attitude towards the Jews, and also more recently a much more open attitude towards the Protestant churches and non-Christian faiths as well. Vatican II is what really started the ecumenical movement in the Church. There are those in the Church who see ecumenism as anathema, but I am in favor of it - to a degree.
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