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Old Yesterday, 04:35 AM
justin22885 justin22885 is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeDefense View Post
I fully agree when Red Flag laws are left up to law enforcement or politicians. They frequently overreact and are subject to pressure from above. Red Flag laws should not be based solely on the claims of an ex-wife or a competitor.

But Red Flag laws with proper due process, including a judge's order, are in our best interest. Every wacko who shoots up a bar, store, or public gathering incrementally hurts our 2nd Amendment rights. One of these days public opinion is going to turn against us and the changes will be fast and sweeping.

If we all want to maintain our 2nd Amendment rights, we need to help remove guns from the wackos who assist the Left in infringing on our rights.

Anyone can put a line in the sand and refuse to budge, but if we do that, sooner or later our entire beach will be washed away.
does the person in question get a chance to defend themselves in front of that judge?.. also, is the red flag suspicion someone might do something? because if they have intention of doing something then red flag laws are irrelevant and they can be arrested for conspiracy

no, all red flag laws are unconstitutional
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Old Yesterday, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
does the person in question get a chance to defend themselves in front of that judge?.. also, is the red flag suspicion someone might do something? because if they have intention of doing something then red flag laws are irrelevant and they can be arrested for conspiracy

no, all red flag laws are unconstitutional
"Red flag laws are unconstitutional" is an opinion that needs to be tested in court. I fully agree if proper due process is lacking.

My point is we need to find a way to stop the identifiable wackos before they commit atrocities. If you have a better idea, I'm ready to listen.

There are identifiable behavior patterns that can be used. The trick is to make sure the law is not abused. I would agree that wherever Democrats are in control, there will be a high potential for abuse, especially with social justice warrior judges.

2nd Amendment rights do not unconditionally apply. They are revoked whenever a felony is committed, even if the felony is non-violent, such as white-collar crime. Those rights can also be restored by a judge.

By definition, a conspiracy requires two or more people. It does not apply to a lone wolf. You may mean "intent to commit murder."

Firearms are not automatically confiscated if someone is arrested for intent or conspiracy. That requires due process, such as the same type of court order as Red Flag laws should require. The person is still innocent until proven guilty and can be released on bail. It's also extraordinarily difficult to convict someone for either intent or conspiracy, especially if the issue is mental illness or behavior patterns. There must be proof of a plan. I would call a violent manifesto a plan, but in the case of most mass shootings, there is no documented plan or anything that would hold up in court. If the person is not convicted, they may be protected from further arrests by double jeopardy. That makes the problem worse.

I'm still looking for a better idea than Red Flag laws, but I haven't seen any.

Don't misunderstand my comments. My primary concern is the way the each and every mass murder inches us closer to confiscation laws under the next Democrat regime that has full control of the House and Senate. Anything that we can do to prevent these events helps preserve the rights of all law-abiding gun owners.
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Old Yesterday, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ~Black.Dog~ View Post
What I was relaying is not about temper. It's about what is most likely schizophrenia and losing touch with reality. He believes he is some other world being with a crazy name who's duty it is to cleanse the world in its final days.
Hardly comparable to George Washington's temper.

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I know what you're trying to say but you're making judgments about possible "crazies" based on your personal understanding of the word. Now from a liberal's perspective, George Washington's propensity to "fly off of the handle" may have been seen as a "mental disorder." Trump saw Fredo's rant as possible grounds to ban him from owning guns. Would Trump have seen George Washington in the same light?

My point is that we don't know who gets to make that judgment call. Who gets to say that you should or should not have your guns taken from you? Do you trust our government to make that decision?
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Old Yesterday, 08:37 AM
~Black.Dog~ ~Black.Dog~ is offline
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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
I know what you're trying to say but you're making judgments about possible "crazies" based on your personal understanding of the word. Now from a liberal's perspective, George Washington's propensity to "fly off of the handle" may have been seen as a "mental disorder." Trump saw Fredo's rant as possible grounds to ban him from owning guns. Would Trump have seen George Washington in the same light?

My point is that we don't know who gets to make that judgment call. Who gets to say that you should or should not have your guns taken from you? Do you trust our government to make that decision?
So, no one should make that decision, ever? Not even in the case of the Parkland shooter somewhere during the course of his 43 contacts with law enforcement?
I understand that Liberty comes with risk, but that seems ridiculous.

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Old Yesterday, 08:43 AM
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The ability for law enforcement and the courts to intervene when someone is off their rocker already exists. Red flag laws are a trojan horse. Nothing more. They do nothing to actually remove the threat (the person). You would have to be profoundly ignorant to support this expansion of nanny state over reach.

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Three forms of involuntary treatment are authorized by civil commitment laws in 46 states and the District of Columbia. Two forms are available in Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts and Tennessee, where court-ordered outpatient treatment has not yet been adopted.

Emergency hospitalization for evaluation is a crisis response in which a patient is admitted to a treatment facility for psychiatric evaluation, typically for a short period of fixed time (e.g., 72 hours). "Psychiatric hold" or "pick-up" and other terms may be used to describe the process.

Inpatient civil commitment is a process in which a judge orders hospital treatment for a person who continues to meet the state’s civil commitment criteria after the emergency evaluation period. Inpatient commitment is practiced in all states, but the standards that qualify an individual for it vary from state to state. “Involuntary hospitalization” or another term may be used to describe the practice.

Outpatient civil commitment or “assisted outpatient treatment (AOT)“ is a treatment option in which a judge orders a qualifying person with symptoms of mental illness to adhere to a mental health treatment plan while living in the community. AOT laws have been passed in 46 states, but the standards for its use vary from state to state. “Outpatient commitment,” “involuntary outpatient commitment,” “mandated outpatient treatment” and other terms may be used to describe the practice.
Cases where people have been arrested multiple times then go on to harm someone are a failure of the courts. LEOs will tell you how frustrating it is to be called to the same house over and over while judges keep letting the bad guy go.
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Old Yesterday, 09:14 AM
~Black.Dog~ ~Black.Dog~ is offline
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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
I know what you're trying to say but you're making judgments about possible "crazies" based on your personal understanding of the word. Now from a liberal's perspective, George Washington's propensity to "fly off of the handle" may have been seen as a "mental disorder." Trump saw Fredo's rant as possible grounds to ban him from owning guns. Would Trump have seen George Washington in the same light?

My point is that we don't know who gets to make that judgment call. Who gets to say that you should or should not have your guns taken from you? Do you trust our government to make that decision?
Incidentally, I do understand temper. I had quite the temper myself when I was a young bull running jobsites. I learned the hard way, though my own mistakes, to control it and become a much more effective manager. On the jobsite and in the rest of my life.
There is a huge difference between a short temper and a mental illness. I certainly see the danger of installing knee jerk reaction RF laws. I am well aware of how they could be abused, just as I have seen existing Domestic Violence laws be abused. That they have been abused does not mean that they should never be acknowledged as sometimes necessary. I have also seen the result of them not being used.
My point is that because we know, and most could agree, that there are a small number of people who are not competent to have access to guns, we should be at the table to find ways to make existing laws work. Rather than walk away from the table and let politicians enact feel-good new laws that could infringe on our rights and be ripe for abuse by the unhinged left. If we are not at the table we will not have a say in what develops.

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