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Old 12-14-2019, 04:25 PM
Disturbed70 Disturbed70 is offline
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Originally Posted by fragout View Post
That is one test referred to but not the only one. I listed the others via an article I posted earlier if you wish to review it.

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I can't find where you posted an article
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Old 12-14-2019, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post
I can't find where you posted an article
Page 4 post number 78 of this thread.

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Old 12-14-2019, 06:14 PM
Disturbed70 Disturbed70 is offline
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The only study Cutshaw referenced in his 2004 article that related to ammo testing on cadavers or live animals was the Thompson-Lagarde study.

Further, he references the darling of the Courtneys - the pressure wave, or stress wave. The Courtneys and their work have been discredited multiple times. Much like Marshall and Sanow.

Finally, the largest advance that has closed the gap in calibers occurred around 2007 (three years after he published his article). This was in the field of bonding, and disproportionately effected 9mm.

So, although an interesting look at historical perspectives/attempts to study ballistics, it does not match up with current understandings in the field.

As I've stated many times, if I was forced to shoot fmj, I would favor .45 if modern jhp is an option, any of the standard calibers will perform comparably. So, it comes back to being a matter of shooting what you can afford to shoot the most, and shoot the best.
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Old 12-14-2019, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post
A lot of people do "testing," without understanding the importance of consistency and repeatability.
A complete waste of time then. Answers one question. It may also include a bias towards a 45 from the Calvary of the day, as they were interested in stopping a horse . ( Not relevant in today's thinking....unless post shtf preparations include a possibility of attack from horseback.....lol)

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Old 12-14-2019, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post
The only study Cutshaw referenced in his 2004 article that related to ammo testing on cadavers or live animals was the Thompson-Lagarde study.

Further, he references the darling of the Courtneys - the pressure wave, or stress wave. The Courtneys and their work have been discredited multiple times. Much like Marshall and Sanow.

Finally, the largest advance that has closed the gap in calibers occurred around 2007 (three years after he published his article). This was in the field of bonding, and disproportionately effected 9mm.

So, although an interesting look at historical perspectives/attempts to study ballistics, it does not match up with current understandings in the field.

As I've stated many times, if I was forced to shoot fmj, I would favor .45 if modern jhp is an option, any of the standard calibers will perform comparably. So, it comes back to being a matter of shooting what you can afford to shoot the most, and shoot the best.
Well put. Same here, only my pick for FMJ would be M80 or M80A1 if work related. ( M67s excluded of course. ....lol)
22lr is the " economy " cartridge at less than 150 bucks for a 5000rd case.

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Old 12-14-2019, 08:56 PM
justin22885 justin22885 is offline
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just out of curiosity, what is the cheapest JHP ammunition you guys would actually rely on?.. say as a compromise between FMJ, and the more expensive high end self defense ammo? when i was reloading 45acp for carbine use, i used XTPs and they didnt cost THAT much to load up
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Old 12-14-2019, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
just out of curiosity, what is the cheapest JHP ammunition you guys would actually rely on?.. say as a compromise between FMJ, and the more expensive high end self defense ammo? when i was reloading 45acp for carbine use, i used XTPs and they didnt cost THAT much to load up
I'm the wrong guy to answer that question. I'm kinda anal about my ammo requirements, including accuracy. So, my primary concern is to find a combo of training fmj and use-on-people jhp whose PoA/PoI matches as closely as possible. Cost isn't really on my radar. When the ammo I like goes on sale, I buy several cases of it.

As a general rule, if you do a google search for "DocGKR ammo list" it will give you links to a list of highly-tested SD ammo that all performs well "

ETA: I believe this is the most current list he has published:

https://www.lightfighter.net/topic/s...f-defense-ammo
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Old 12-15-2019, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
ive used 45acp in a carbine for hunting.. the fact is that like 9mm, you see very little increase in velocity from a 16" barrel, and youre similarly looking at 350-450ft/lbs of energy typically, thats because the powders they use in pistol ammo is designed to be burnt up out of a pistol length barrel and to get better numbers from a carbine you have to load your own ammo with slower powders.. if you do this, you can get about the same energy at 200 yards as you'd get from a pistol at self defense distances

so yeah, PCCs can be a huge improvement over handguns when it comes to muzzle energy, just not with off the shelf handgun ammo
What load data, powder and bullet are you using iot produce the same energy with a 16in bbl carbine that can be achieved with a 9mm handgun at 10 feet while loaded with 124gr Speer GD factory ammo?

Just curious, as the numbers dont add up.....( You would need to push a 124gr pill to a minimum of 1900 fps iot achieve same energy at 200 yards as a 9mm handgun can at close range/ loaded with 124gr factory ammunition.)

With that said, 9mm handguns are also a terrible choice for hunting hogs including close distances. A legitimate improvement = 357magnum fired from an 18in bbl rifle. Step up from there and your looking at 7.62x39mm fired from a 10.5in bbl pistol/ SBR. Both can get it done with regularity using factory or reloaded ammunition. The latter can get it done with low cost " training" ammo, so poi/ poa never needs to differ, no reloading involved, sealed primers/ case mouths, and puts pigs in the dirt from any angle out to 200 ads at least. ( MFS 125gr JSP at less than 18 cents per round)
If you want an optimum / all around/ hunt anywhere in NA cartridge.......7mm08, 270, 308, and 3006 are all good places to start.

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Old 12-15-2019, 07:05 AM
BMassBMore BMassBMore is offline
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Terminal Ballistics......45 (but modern 9mm JHP is not far behind)
Exterior Ballistics.....9mm (flatter trajectory, more range)
Penetration.............9mm (depending)
Capacity................9mm
Weight..................9mm
Cost....................9mm
Availability............9mm
Recoil/Controllability..9mm (maybe not important for you, but what about others you might provide for)
Accuracy................tossup, depends on gun/round/shooter. But see recoil above.
Fun Factor..............Personal Preference
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Old 12-15-2019, 10:42 AM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is offline
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Quote:
Exterior Ballistics.....9mm (flatter trajectory, more range)
100 with a .45 1911 isn't hard, so I would disagree.
Availability also.

ALlso: many women I've trained have found the .45 to be easier to handle and describe it as a push to the 9mms 'snap' (I have large hands and wrists, so dont .)
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Old 12-15-2019, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
Also: many women I've trained have found the .45 to be easier to handle and describe it as a push to the 9mms 'snap' (I have large hands and wrists, so dont .)
Had a smaller (110lbs) lady recently try a M&P .45 and she made a similar comment. It pushed her, was what she said. However she did make it clear that over time the .45 was less comfortable to shoot because it tired her arms faster. She normally shoots a H&K P30 in 9mm.
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Old 12-15-2019, 11:17 AM
Rural Buckeye Guy Rural Buckeye Guy is offline
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I can put more rounds on target accurately with a 9mm, and ammo is more available. I figure calibers and pistols are a lot like women: sometimes availability is key but most often you like what you like and practice and failures narrow that preference down.

For example, I like intelligent redheads and brownie hi powers so now I'm married to an intelligent redhead and I carry a CZ75 PCR. I am very happy with both.

BTW, thank you all for your service, and commentary. I dont have much more to add so back to lurking and learning. Thanks again.

68W
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Old 12-15-2019, 12:34 PM
AZ_HighCountry AZ_HighCountry is offline
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Mrs. AZ_HighCountry is not tiny. 5'6", 130; also former farm girls; prefers the 9mm as well over the .45. If any consolation, she prefers the .45 over the .40.
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Old 12-15-2019, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
100 with a .45 1911 isn't hard, so I would disagree.
Availability also.

ALlso: many women I've trained have found the .45 to be easier to handle and describe it as a push to the 9mms 'snap' (I have large hands and wrists, so dont .)

Agree, the recoil of a 45ACP is more push than snap, grip stance and technique have a lot to do with how well one handles recoil. While that applies across the board it becomes more crucial as recoil increases, especially among those who don't have dinner plates for hands. So yeah, small framed people with dainty hands can handle the recoil of heavier calibers with the proper training in stance/grip/techniques.
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Old 12-15-2019, 06:08 PM
Disturbed70 Disturbed70 is offline
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I think there are a couple of misinterpretations going on. Most people can handle the recoil of any of the common calibers - particularly when firing short strings, or shooting slow fire.
It's not a matter of "OMG, I can't shoot this!"

Where 9mm shines is shooting long strings, quickly, or in terms of transitioning between multiple targets. Even guys like Jerry Miculek and Rob Leatham do better with 9mm than 40 or 45, and nobody in here, including all of the folks that like to talk about girly/dainty wrists is outshooting either of them.

Whatever you are capable of shooting in terms of strings of fire at speed, with decent accuracy standards, with a 40 or 45, you will almost undoubtedly be able to do faster with a 9mm. However fast you are able to transition between targets with 40 or 45, you will be able to do faster with 9mm. Is that important to you? Is that something you train for? only you can answer that.

Having seen thousands of shooters under time (and using a timer, not "that sounded about the same"), looking at what USPSA and IDPA shooters have learned, and at what top tier military shooters have found, this is not theory. This is fact.
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Old 12-15-2019, 06:22 PM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post
I think there are a couple of misinterpretations going on. Most people can handle the recoil of any of the common calibers - particularly when firing short strings, or shooting slow fire.
It's not a matter of "OMG, I can't shoot this!"

Where 9mm shines is shooting long strings, quickly, or in terms of transitioning between multiple targets. Even guys like Jerry Miculek and Rob Leatham do better with 9mm than 40 or 45, and nobody in here, including all of the folks that like to talk about girly/dainty wrists is outshooting either of them.

Whatever you are capable of shooting in terms of strings of fire at speed, with decent accuracy standards, with a 40 or 45, you will almost undoubtedly be able to do faster with a 9mm. However fast you are able to transition between targets with 40 or 45, you will be able to do faster with 9mm. Is that important to you? Is that something you train for? only you can answer that.

Having seen thousands of shooters under time (and using a timer, not "that sounded about the same"), looking at what USPSA and IDPA shooters have learned, and at what top tier military shooters have found, this is not theory. This is fact.
I completely agree .

For me and most people with (some) training.

I am 6' tall and have slightly oversized hands for my height (I can (just barely) palm a NBA regulation basketball.)

.44 with Buffalo Bore ammo... (Pre spinal injuty)
Are you paying for ammo and how much ya got?

And with a PAC timer am/was ABSOLUTELY (slightly) faster with a G19 vs G23.


But:
What I describe has happened to me while instructing. (And I've taught a lot of people.) For 'new shooters' Eta: all slightly built to average sized women.

Only a few of those few have I seen past a 2 day class, and yes, most of them transitioned to 9mm glocks. (All though I think a lot of that was the size of the pistol.)

But for someone with very limited (but enough to be basically competent) experence... That seems to hold true.
(Those that aren't going to shoot more than 2x a year etc.)


Nitch, but interesting and notable.
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Old 12-15-2019, 06:55 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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If you do not like a 9mm don't get one. Like it or not but just like the trend took us from 7.62 to 5.56 the hand gun trend is at or to 9mm.
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Old 12-16-2019, 12:14 PM
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What one is capable of doing and what one is comfortable doing are not always the same. Most people, myself included find lighter calibers such as the 9mm more comfortable to shoot. Which is another clue as to why the 9mm has gained in popularity.
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Old 12-17-2019, 09:26 PM
Chuckleberry Chuckleberry is offline
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`

This video doesn't fit the narrative put forth by the 40 fraidies, but shows that an average guy who trains a bit & hasn't bought into the idea that the 40 is some untamable monster can shoot a 40 just as good as 9mm.

.
`
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:15 PM
Disturbed70 Disturbed70 is offline
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Lol. .22 splits, 11in group at 5-6 yards (14.5 in in 9mm). Yeah...that dude is amazing.
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