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Old 04-08-2019, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by CaffeineBuzz View Post
As far as I'm concerned, the 'greatest generation' stole our income before we even earned it. A reckoning is in store.
The Greatest Generation didn't steal my income. They risked their lives protecting and preserving the freedoms I enjoy today.
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Old 04-08-2019, 10:05 AM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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The Greatest Generation didn't steal my income. They risked their lives protecting and preserving the freedoms I enjoy today.
Yes but they came home thinking they were perfect and gave us never ending debt.

As pro-military service and believing everyone has an obligation to serve many return feeling too deserving. I think John McCain is a perfect example.
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Old 04-08-2019, 10:17 AM
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Yeah, all John McCain did was live in a cage for years and receive torture. He refused to accept his freedom unless the other prisoners were freed as well as himself. I'm sure we'd all be capable of that, right?
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Old 04-08-2019, 10:32 AM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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Yeah, all John McCain did was live in a cage for years and receive torture. He refused to accept his freedom unless the other prisoners were freed as well as himself. I'm sure we'd all be capable of that, right?
No that is not the point. McCain endured what no man should endure. However because of what he endured he felt entitled to be President. He resented Bush and Trump and showed it by his votes.

McCain was a man who I pity but whose votes I hated.

I have an son-in-law who served and did a great job. That does not excuse him for coming home and abandoning his family.To the point of not only not paying child support, not visiting his children, but not even sending them a Christmas gift.

It ain't PTSD. He was a deadbeat before his military service. Served honorably and went back to being a deadbeat.
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Old 04-08-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
No that is not the point. McCain endured what no man should endure. However because of what he endured he felt entitled to be President. He resented Bush and Trump and showed it by his votes.

McCain was a man who I pity but whose votes I hated.

I have an son-in-law who served and did a great job. That does not excuse him for coming home and abandoning his family.To the point of not only not paying child support, not visiting his children, but not even sending them a Christmas gift.

It ain't PTSD. He was a deadbeat before his military service. Served honorably and went back to being a deadbeat.
I don't think John McCain felt entitled to anything and he voted as he thought he should. I'm truly sorry about your son in law-he does sound like a major, major deadbeat.
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Old 04-08-2019, 11:14 AM
vivisky vivisky is offline
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Giving people a lump sum of their SS when they turn 65 is a really bad idea, because of all the irresponsible ones who won't manage it properly, will become destitute and then turn to the rest of us begging for us to take care of them.

I know far too many people who spent their entire 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's living beyond their means. They spent everything they ever made on nonsense-- brought their kids to see Europe because that is "so important" for their development, bought solar panels (when they were too expensive), ditched their gas vehicle for a Prius, (not taking into consideration that unless you recycle your gas car, someone else is still going to drive it!), IOW so many people just do not have a Total Discipline and a Total Big Picture mindset.

These folks would take their SS lump sum and waste it. Then turn to AOC or Bernie and whine about how they have not built light rail from their front door straight over to Starbucks for their morning Jo.
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Old 04-08-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by prankster View Post
I don't think John McCain felt entitled to anything and he voted as he thought he should. I'm truly sorry about your son in law-he does sound like a major, major deadbeat.
If McCain is the worst thing we disagree on we pretty much will agree.
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Old 04-08-2019, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by manimalist View Post
The Greatest Generation didn't steal my income. They risked their lives protecting and preserving the freedoms I enjoy today.


The one thing Iíll call them out on was GCA68.

The depression and itís struggles was something that had to be lived to be understood, but giving politicians the approval to infringe on our Constitutional rights was their biggest mistake.


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Old 04-08-2019, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie_T View Post
Was there ever a trust fund, and if there was how would it grow? If it earned interest who would pay the interest? Any thoughts of privatization are quickly ridiculed, yet I invested only $8K into an IRA and maybe $30K into tax deferred savings and now draw $12K per year as a RMD to supplement my annuity.

Maybe I should have put more into the IRA but I did put after taxes funds into investments that have done well. Of course I do realize that all (IRA, investments and annuity) are just on paper and may vaporize in the event of SHTF (as may SS).
Allegedly, to eventually use the interest to make the payments, the trust find was supposed to be a stand alone fund, but congress never ever saw a pile of money they couldn't keep their hands off of.
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Old 06-09-2019, 09:21 PM
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It is not an option because they don't have the money. Here is how SSI works. You put your money in SSI and the government takes that money and spends it. They then write a check, called an IOU or bond, and say there is money in the account. The problem is in order to get the money the government has to either print it or tax the citizens to get it, pay the bond back.

You should try that. Write yourself a check and tell the bank the money is there because there is a check.

They call this the trust fund. Funny how it is named trust fund because I dont trust it. last I looked SSI was about 31 trillion in debt, unfunded liability. That was a few years ago so I am sure it is worse now. The real US debt is over 200 trillion but they, the news media, will not mention the unfunded liabilities.
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Old 06-09-2019, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by zooeyhll View Post
I've been thinking lately about Social Security
snip
Bush did propose something like that. A portion of deductions would be redirected to individual retirement accounts.

The Democrats shat all over that idea.
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Old 06-09-2019, 09:47 PM
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The prevailing arguments against a lump sum payout of SS are all pragmatic, and not principled. The prevailing arguments for a lump sum payout of SS are all principled. We were a nation founded on principles, that pragmatically will be painful. To avoid pain, we abandon principles, and settle for the lowest minimum moral standard that removes human responsibility and sovereignty. A nation that lives that way cannot honestly claim to care about the elderly or anyone else it purportedly helps. At some point we are going to have to make a principled decision, accept the pragmatic results, and adjust. Or it really won't matter how they pay out SS now will it?
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Old 06-09-2019, 09:54 PM
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... besides, some prince in Africa would scam it.
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
Yes but they came home thinking they were perfect and gave us never ending debt.
I don't understand your reasoning.
No one gave me any debt. I have no debt. Americans enjoy the privilege of owning private property, so my own personal finances are separate from the government. The only connection is taxes and I make enough money to pay them and still enjoy living a good life.
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by manimalist View Post
I don't understand your reasoning.
No one gave me any debt. I have no debt. Americans enjoy the privilege of owning private property, so my own personal finances are separate from the government. The only connection is taxes and I make enough money to pay them and still enjoy living a good life.
The greatest generation give us non-war-time deficit spending. The pulled off the greatest global victory of all times. Often people that make such sacrifices thing in one of two ways. One they can do anything and cost does not matter. Two they are entitled because of their sacrifices.

These are manifested in both group and individual think.

I like you own property with no debt, have great income, live comfortably. But the big hand of government can destroy that in less than a generation. So I might die fat, dumb and happy but sooner or later our progeny will pay.
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:55 PM
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Why not a large lump sum? Short version is, they're hoping you die.

The other, less obvious reason why they don't do it is because of double-dipping.

Let's say you take the lump sum and mismanage it, outlive it, or just plain blow it. One of two things probably happens. Either these retirement-age folks end up going on welfare because they blew the money, which means they double dip, or if you made it so this was impossible, they become homeless. And you can bet that a huge wave of homeless elderly people would end up getting laws passed and things done.

At the end of the day, I'd prefer the option to opt-out at an earlier age. i'm 33 now, have been working full time for about 15 years. if i could write off those 15 years of social security taxes as a complete loss and start putting back the 6.1% into my OWN retirement account today...well, here's the math

using the retirement calculator on the SSA's website, at my current earnings and retiring in 29 years at 62, i'd get about $1610/mo, which is a pitiful $19kish a year....dang near poverty line. for a lifetime of work. and i make upper-middle class income. what a freakin jip!

if i said "you can keep my taxes for the last 15 years" and started putting just the 6.1% back into a brokerage account, not even talking the OTHER 6.1% my employer pays as payroll taxes....well...at average market rates i'd end up with $377k at 62, i'd have enough money to draw $30,000/yr (not that measly $19k) until I was 100 years old before I ran out. And if I died early, my kids could inherit a huge lump sum.

Social Security is a bad joke that benefits no one except those who don't work. Anyone who paid in could have done better investing the money themselves.
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:18 PM
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The driving force for Social Security was some income and dignity for people who worked low income jobs and ended up broke. Tens of millions of people even today fit that description and SS is all -or nearly all - they have.

SS is no "bad joke" to these folks and their families and Rich Man Monday morning quarterbacking won't change a bit of that.
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Old 06-10-2019, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by puttster View Post
The driving force for Social Security was some income and dignity for people who worked low income jobs and ended up broke. Tens of millions of people even today fit that description and SS is all -or nearly all - they have.

SS is no "bad joke" to these folks and their families and Rich Man Monday morning quarterbacking won't change a bit of that.
I agree plus many that would get the lump sum are people that have not otherwise saved. They have delusions of grander and would blow it all in short order. Then we would end up supporting them anyway.
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Old 06-10-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
I agree plus many that would get the lump sum are people that have not otherwise saved.
Lump sum is funny. We have a 21 trillion dollar (and growing) debt and there is no unlimited pot of SS money sitting around collecting dust. This ludicrous concept that the "government" will hand out "my lifetime of social security contributions + interest " is the same as pretending one will win the Singapore lottery and trip to Mars.
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinfire View Post
Social Security is a bad joke that benefits no one except those who don't work. Anyone who paid in could have done better investing the money themselves.
My great-aunt paid into SS for exactly 3 years before she retired way back when and was receiving SSI for the next 45+ years. She lived to like 102 give or take.

In the original plan, FDR proposed exactly that; allowing the individual to invest a part of it. That idea withered away and any attempts since then to resurrect that idea are met with fierce resistance, mostly half-truths and out and out lies, arguing against that idea.

The federal government has allowed this program to morph into something which was never intended.
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