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Old 12-02-2019, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by EchoMirage View Post
Whatever you want to call it. This is what the teacher said. He also said this particular jam happened to someone in combat overseas. The soldier didn't know how to clear it, brought it back to the base, and it took the armorer there 2 hours to clear it. Because of that, he introduced this particular jam into his class, and called it the mother of all jams. So there.

Drop the mag
Using a tool, spent shell, or finger, manually pull back the bolt (without using the charging handle)
Lock the bolt with the catch
Reach into the magwell, using either a tool, finger, shell, etc; and remove the stuck case
Done

This is why the leatherman MUTT was made with the bolt override tool, or whatever you call it.
I believe his story, as it is more common than realized. ( And why tools such as the MUTT were developed.)

...And that was my point earlier. It takes tools and time. Not near as easy to clear as for example.....a failure to load. ( quick fix = dump that mag for a new one)

Now add into the equation a dirty weapon that is hot from being fired often and right up until the issue here.

Once the bolt has been pried back with a tool or knife, the real work starts at forcing a live round out that's smashed up in there. I have had better luck by going through the ejection port instead of magwell simply because one can gain more leverage with a smaller length tool. ( pry bar)

Also one reason why PCCs/ PCIs are so important, and why proper PMCS via weapon and especially the weapons magazines should be thourough.

Btw: Another field expedient method ( combat over ride)one can utilize for the same issue......

I was gonna type it out here, but decided that I should ask admin folks about it first.
It ain't exactly the safe route to take, and can be faster in times where your weapon needs to function again as quickly as possible...or you risk being shot or worse.....surviving it with knowledge that some of your team members did not and wondering if you could have contributed to thier survival by covering them as they were making movement.

The mother of all jams = a failure to fire/ failure to unlock. Field expedient is the following once this issue has been identified......

1. Place weapon on safe ( If possible)
2. Dump magazine
3. Find a solid piece of ground ( sidewalk, hardball road/ street, frozen ground etc...)
4. Vertical buttstroke that solid ground.

The inertia and force of the impact / multiple impacts.... Can force it to unlock sometimes.

Notes

1. If this doesn't work.....your out of business. ( One can dump generous amounts of lubricant to the bolt, let weapon cool completely, then try it again however....but that takes even more time.) If your life depends on it..... You can remove the lower completely and utilize the same method without said lower in place....Advantages = your not fighting against your own buffer spring and 0 chance of breaking the stock. Disadvantages = More time involved, and damage to upper receiver is possible.

2. It is possible that the live round in chamber could detonate, so muzzle awareness while your banging away is in order.

3. It is also possible that the M4 type stock could break. ( Anything from hair line cracks to a complete break which renders it into a less than optimum firearm for obvious reasons.)

4. M16A2 stocks are much more solid vs M4 stocks Btw... ( A cleaning kit inside buttstock with an actual cleaning rod instead of just a pull thru has advantages.....and a solid cleaning rod in place via most AK / SKS designs is another....)

On a side note: This is a bigger issue with the SCAR17 stocks, and one of it's weakest links from my experience.

In comparison and by design......

1. The AK and M14 have a charging handle rugged enough to put a boot to either if needed. ( Simply put.....the bolt can be quickly forced back without the need for tools via either rifle if a failure to unlock and fire does occur. )

2. M14 stocks had to meet a much higher requirement compared to M16 stocks. The requirement stems from something more rigorous than bayonet training btw. ....

3. It is possible that one can break an AK stock, but the weapon will function with or without a stock.

4. A failure to unlock is possible with all 3 designs if they are frozen solid. Much easier and faster to get the AK or M14 running again however. ( See number 1 above for the explanation.)

Too make a long story short here......

With the AR popularity at this forum being quite a bit higher than the AK or M14, folks that own and like shooting them should all be aware of what it takes to keep one running under worst case scenarios if this is to be thier defensive weapon of choice.

Last but worth mentioning = A ruptured case in chamber.

Interesting thread Btw....

11B
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobcat In The Woods View Post
I shoot 130 grain spritzers through my Winchester 94 regularly. You just canít keep more than 1 round in the magazine at a time when you do it.
NYPD Stakeout Squad veteran Bill Allard used a 1911 back in the '60s when all you could get was hardball ammo. Allard used to stick a handload up the pipe and drop the slide. He then inserted a mag full of hardball. He seldom had to shoot twice.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgerunner1965 View Post
someone said lever action rifles are not commonly used in warfare.

you might ask custer about that. he was probably killed with one.
I get your point but it would be accurate to say levers have seldom been issued by state armies or used by regular troops. An exception is the Spencer and Henry being used in the latter days of the Civil War. But the U.S. Army went back to muzzle and breech loaders soon afterward. Infantrymen in the Fetterman fight in 1866 were using muzzleloaders but the few cavalrymen involved had Spencers.

Scouts, lawmen, and militia did use levers a lot during the Indian Wars. One account of Reno's Valley Fight has scout Lonesome Charley Reynolds covering the withdrawal. Reynolds was said to have last been seen "working the lever" of his Winchester before going down.
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Old 12-03-2019, 11:20 AM
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You can certainly do a lot worse than a 30-30 lever gun. I keep a 336Y in my truck rather than 1 of my semi autos. It is a handy little rifle that is light and easy to use. Not my first choice in an SHTF scenario but definitely not my last either.


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Old 12-03-2019, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
Any firearm requires ordinary attention to care and maintenance. With a lever-action rifle a normal part of the regular cleaning and maintenance includes ensuring that the screws are tight, and that the bolt face and extractor are cleaned of debris. On mine I disassemble, inspect, adjust, and reassemble annually, usually at the end of the big game season before I put the guns away.

I have lever action rifles in .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .44-40 and .30-30 which are in regular daily use on the farm or are carried in vehicles for contingency use. My two .30-30s and .44-40s are all over 100 year old Winchesters. My .357 and .44 Mag are modern 1894 Marlins, which I have found to be just fine, utiltarian, easy to work on, accurate and reliable.

I do keep spare screws, springs, extractors, etc. and am able to make simple repairs and parts replacements. I do likewise with my older S&W revolvers. I do like pre-war Colts and have about a dozen, mostly over 100 years old. I defer Colt repairs to a factory-trained professional. There are still a few left. Sandy Garret at NoVA Gun works does mine. I can fix most Ruger and S&W revolvers I own, if parts are available, as I was factory trained to do so, but if a repair requires machine work or factory fixtures that I don't have, then they go to Sandy. Some pre-1957 S&Ws can be problematic for parts. I recently modified a current production MIM N-frame hand, removing the extra stud with a diamond cutoff wheel on the Dremel and fitted it to one of my pair of 1955 Model 38-44 Heavy Dutys to fix a DCU condition and the gun now times and indexes positively in DA and SA as it should, and with cautious application of the babbit bar to turn the barrel it now shoots to the sights and works well.

Sometimes you get lucky.

It's all a matter of understanding how the mechanism works, education in determining the proper diagnosis, and care in executing the work needed without doing anything stupid.
Outpost, I have a winchester 94 trapper in 357 magnum. Love this gun, havent shot it much but when I do it works well for me and its very accurate.
I keep hearing about how terrible it is, that its designed for rifle rounds and just doenst work well for pistol calibers like 357.
anything I should keep an eye out for?
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Outpost, I have a winchester 94 trapper in 357 magnum. Love this gun, havent shot it much but when I do it works well for me and its very accurate.
I keep hearing about how terrible it is, that its designed for rifle rounds and just doenst work well for pistol calibers like 357.
anything I should keep an eye out for?
I would be sure that rounds you use are close to factory overall length. Depending upon how they modified the lifter and cartridge guides to feed the shorter revolver rounds, cartridges which are too short may double-feed onto the lifter causing a jam, and those which are too long will jam the lifter and keep it from rising.

In the Marlin 1894 lever-actions in .44-40, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt and .357, you must avoid cartridges shorter than 1.40" overall length, or longer than 1.60"

A clue on the Winchester will be the barrel marking. If it says .38 Special and .357, you are OK down to 1.40". If it is marked .357 Magnum, with no mention of .38 Special, you might cautiously try a few factory .38 semi-wadcutter or JHP rounds and see if they feed.

Otherwise I would stick to handloads in the range of 1.50-1.60 overall cartridge length, keep the boltface clean of any blowback fouling, and check the screws as stated and you should be good to go.
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Old 12-03-2019, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuniticFringeInc View Post
Kev...

That is why I am a huge fan of Bolt Actions and Break Action single shots! I make it a point to have at least one in each center fire rifle caliber I own (except 7mm Rem Mag), among a few other reasons of course. Your situation just high lights one of the reasons. That is not to knock lever actions as I have one as well, just not something I shoot much or have much stock invested in. Im way more invested in 5.56, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 and have multiple platforms in all three!!!
Im a huge lever gun fan. Always have been and always will be.

With that said.....I only have 1 ( Glenfield) in 3030 , and it rarely sees any use since my semiauto dbm " go to/ security rifle is also my hunting/ culling/ pest control rifle and has been since the start of this century now.

My only reasons for not selling it are sentimental/ nostalgic.

A few bolt guns in 308 I have are strictly hunting rifles.
No use for 223 here.

22LR 7.62x39mm, and 7.62x51mm via semiauto dbm firearms is where I have multiples of. ( No use for 5.56mm)



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Old 12-03-2019, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragout View Post
I believe his story, as it is more common than realized. ( And why tools such as the MUTT were developed.)

...And that was my point earlier. It takes tools and time. Not near as easy to clear as for example.....a failure to load. ( quick fix = dump that mag for a new one)

Now add into the equation a dirty weapon that is hot from being fired often and right up until the issue here.

Once the bolt has been pried back with a tool or knife, the real work starts at forcing a live round out that's smashed up in there. I have had better luck by going through the ejection port instead of magwell simply because one can gain more leverage with a smaller length tool. ( pry bar)

Also one reason why PCCs/ PCIs are so important, and why proper PMCS via weapon and especially the weapons magazines should be thourough.

Btw: Another field expedient method ( combat over ride)one can utilize for the same issue......

I was gonna type it out here, but decided that I should ask admin folks about it first.
It ain't exactly the safe route to take, and can be faster in times where your weapon needs to function again as quickly as possible...or you risk being shot or worse.....surviving it with knowledge that some of your team members did not and wondering if you could have contributed to thier survival by covering them as they were making movement.

The mother of all jams = a failure to fire/ failure to unlock. Field expedient is the following once this issue has been identified......

1. Place weapon on safe ( If possible)
2. Dump magazine
3. Find a solid piece of ground ( sidewalk, hardball road/ street, frozen ground etc...)
4. Vertical buttstroke that solid ground.

The inertia and force of the impact / multiple impacts.... Can force it to unlock sometimes.

Notes

1. If this doesn't work.....your out of business. ( One can dump generous amounts of lubricant to the bolt, let weapon cool completely, then try it again however....but that takes even more time.) If your life depends on it..... You can remove the lower completely and utilize the same method without said lower in place....Advantages = your not fighting against your own buffer spring and 0 chance of breaking the stock. Disadvantages = More time involved, and damage to upper receiver is possible.

2. It is possible that the live round in chamber could detonate, so muzzle awareness while your banging away is in order.

3. It is also possible that the M4 type stock could break. ( Anything from hair line cracks to a complete break which renders it into a less than optimum firearm for obvious reasons.)

4. M16A2 stocks are much more solid vs M4 stocks Btw... ( A cleaning kit inside buttstock with an actual cleaning rod instead of just a pull thru has advantages.....and a solid cleaning rod in place via most AK / SKS designs is another....)

On a side note: This is a bigger issue with the SCAR17 stocks, and one of it's weakest links from my experience.

In comparison and by design......

1. The AK and M14 have a charging handle rugged enough to put a boot to either if needed. ( Simply put.....the bolt can be quickly forced back without the need for tools via either rifle if a failure to unlock and fire does occur. )

2. M14 stocks had to meet a much higher requirement compared to M16 stocks. The requirement stems from something more rigorous than bayonet training btw. ....

3. It is possible that one can break an AK stock, but the weapon will function with or without a stock.

4. A failure to unlock is possible with all 3 designs if they are frozen solid. Much easier and faster to get the AK or M14 running again however. ( See number 1 above for the explanation.)

Too make a long story short here......

With the AR popularity at this forum being quite a bit higher than the AK or M14, folks that own and like shooting them should all be aware of what it takes to keep one running under worst case scenarios if this is to be thier defensive weapon of choice.

Last but worth mentioning = A ruptured case in chamber.

Interesting thread Btw....

11B
My friend once jammed a 3006 reload in his Garand. He placed the bolt handle against a wood fence post and shoved hard on the stock.
It turned out he had wrinkled the case neck during bullet seating, and the Garand action had jammed without locking the bolt.
Another option when no wood post is available is to hold a rock against the bolt handle and butt stroke the gun. The momentum of the rock will extract something.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:54 PM
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Does anyone else find it ironic that this thread about a .30-30 lever gun problem has attracted more posts, in much more detail, about semi-auto jams?

Outpost reminded me on another thread that another cause of "double feed" from a lever-gun's tube magazine is ammo that is loaded too short. Not a.30-30 problem so much as it is a problem with .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum guns.
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Old 12-04-2019, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Hick Industries View Post
My friend once jammed a 3006 reload in his Garand. He placed the bolt handle against a wood fence post and shoved hard on the stock.
It turned out he had wrinkled the case neck during bullet seating, and the Garand action had jammed without locking the bolt.
Another option when no wood post is available is to hold a rock against the bolt handle and butt stroke the gun. The momentum of the rock will extract something.
That idea will get it done.

A few years ago...a buddy of mine stopped by with his brand new rifle and a bag full of loaded magazines so he could become acquainted with it on my range. ( LRB Arms M25)

The first round fired but case failed to extract ...which also means the case did not eject.
He pulled back on the op rod handle and out it flew.

2nd round and same problem.

This went on a few more times, so he asked me to help him troubleshoot the issue.

It took me a full magazine to find the culprit.....which I should have spotted right from the get go.

The spindle valve was closed.

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Old 12-04-2019, 12:26 PM
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A friend of mine was shooting some of my 22-250 rounds through his Remington 788. the reloads were fine in my rifle. But his bolt locked up. I hit the bolt handle with a branch. The bolt broke. not the handle the bolt. Just a thought on stuck bolts.
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Old 12-18-2019, 12:54 AM
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A friend of mine was shooting some of my 22-250 rounds through his Remington 788. the reloads were fine in my rifle. But his bolt locked up. I hit the bolt handle with a branch. The bolt broke. not the handle the bolt. Just a thought on stuck bolts.
Did it sheer off a bolt lug or something else? ( Possibly an " overcharge" reload that ended up in that specific rifle).
At least it did its job and held together to protect the shooter.

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Old 12-18-2019, 09:44 AM
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Things like bolt handles are high temperature silver soldered on. Replacing it requires red heat - proper flux and watch that clamping force; thing get soft at that temp. Do not let the heat get anywhere near the locking lugs.
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Old 12-18-2019, 10:23 AM
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https://www.wildwestguns.com/custom-guns/


never had one of my levers jam, but i do maintence on em. but if im ever flush and im looking to buy an new lever rifle, going to be this one, the Co-Pilot, 457WWG,, breakdown from these guys. beautiful work
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Old 12-18-2019, 04:11 PM
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I prefer my Model '94 over an AR in a SHTF situation in most cases and I have the other with a Viking sling. Better ergonomics for me. Not so worried if I dropped the '94 in the dirt or mud.
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Old 12-18-2019, 07:05 PM
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Rossi in 357/38, Rossi in 44 mag/sp , vintage Marlins in 30-30 and 44 and 22, Win 94 in 32sp all with no problems except for the 1954 marlin 39a that seems to not like any angle when feeding except horizontal. both rossis and the marlin 44 handle both cartridges flawlessly, thru thousands of rounds
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Old 12-19-2019, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho Survivalist View Post
I prefer my Model '94 over an AR in a SHTF situation in most cases and I have the other with a Viking sling. Better ergonomics for me. Not so worried if I dropped the '94 in the dirt or mud.
You think the lever action is more likely to work than the AR if dropped in the dirt or mud? For SHTF I'd take semi auto capability any day of the week over repeting actions.
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Old 12-19-2019, 12:01 PM
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I picked up a lee loader for my 30-30s. I have not used one since the early 70's and it was a 357 loader. I was thinking of a portable loader. I do have a mobil press but again, it is a bit big. I wanted the ability to load at places other than at home. I'll load some ammo soon and see how and where it shoots. I would rather go 32-20 or 357 but the 30-30 has a bit more versatility. One does not always need the ability to shoot 500 yards or moose. In fact where I live there are no moose nor shots over 150 yards.
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Old 12-20-2019, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
You think the lever action is more likely to work than the AR if dropped in the dirt or mud? For SHTF I'd take semi auto capability any day of the week over repeting actions.
Depends a lot on what you are comfortable with and what you grew up with. I used to hike a lot in thick brush and steep slopes. Tried both guns. Found it a lot easier to get parts on an AR caught on branches. If I lived in the Midwest or the Southwest, I'd probably choose an AR, but I live in a region of high mountains, deep canyons, and a lot of brush. If I lived in S.E. Alaska, I would definitely prefer my '94 if I, for example, were escaping through the forest.
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Old 12-20-2019, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
You think the lever action is more likely to work than the AR if dropped in the dirt or mud? For SHTF I'd take semi auto capability any day of the week over repeting actions.
That comment makes little sense for either weapon' s case.

All things equal, they are both just as likely to function . If both have thier bbls filled with mud then niether are until the mud is cleared first. ( Pull thrus are not worth a crap for this so plan accordingly.) 1 reason why the SKS and AK types have a one piece cleaning rod located within easy access for the end user.

I would rather have a semiautomatic dbm over a lever gun. However......it would not be an AR.

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