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Old 11-05-2018, 06:15 PM
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BTW I think it was Massad Ayoob who totally fisked that old wives tale about not using reloads in a PD situation. Years ago, but like Hillary Clinton it just won't go away.
Ayoob has done more damage to the science of self defense than fiendstien.
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Old 11-05-2018, 06:30 PM
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No one in the history of the United States has been convicted of a crime for using reloads in self-defense. Never Ever. Ayboob and the drones point to the case involving a man who murdered his girlfriend. He said she comitted suicide. The judge, wrongly in my opinion, refused to allow expert testimony based on a lack of evidentiary foundation for the reloads. My advice, do not murder your girlfriend. Regardless, it was a murder case.
What we do know, as a fact beyond dispute is that Mr. Fish was convicted in a case involving Self defense where the judge allowed evidence about the defendant's too powerful 10mm, his firearms training, and having too many guns and ammunition. So Ayboob never says don't use a 10mm or get firearms training or collect a lot of guns and ammunition. We know that will bite you hard. See how stupid it all is???
Thank God Mr. Fish got out of jail when an appellate court overturned the verdict.
Don't be a tool. Think for yourself.
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Old 11-05-2018, 06:35 PM
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If they’re in the pistol when I head to town and they aren’t ball loads I will go into town with them in there.

I carry because I can and do it at home. I also know my local laws. As long as I don’t shoot to injure or maim on purpose and don’t use incendiary or exploding projectiles, there’s no other law on prohibited ammo.

Learn your local laws. Ammo won’t get you charged with a crime. Not knowing local laws and using lethal force outside the law will. Factory or home loaded ammo.

Some people are obviously oblivious to their local laws and prefer to rely on urban myths based on internet chatter. Unreal considering the responsibility that goes with carrying a gun.
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Old 11-05-2018, 06:54 PM
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Some people are obviously oblivious to their local laws and prefer to rely on urban myths based on internet chatter. Unreal considering the responsibility that goes with carrying a gun.
It predates this 'internet' you like to criticize so often.....on the internet.

And can pretty much be traced to a single source....an Arab Wannabee lawyer who wanted to sell books and get paid for endorsements for ammo companies....which has lead to the vast majority of gun owners having some really backwards ideas about self defense ammunition.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by clocker View Post
Can you or anyone post a link to this? TIA. I'd love to read it first-hand (first-eyed? )

I use pretty standard fare Speer LE Gold Dot 124gr 9mm in my EDC which is around $25 per 50 round box @ SGAmmo.com, which comes at about 50 cent per (less, if purchased in larger quantities; have seen them as little as 44 cents per). Cost to load both 6-round mags, plus one in the pipe, is $6.50. Add a couple/few boxes to test function at the range over a year, and it's really not that much money. Considering the critical purpose of such ammo, why try to save a few dollars?
I run the same ammo for the same reasons.

The ammo has been vetted be A TON of LE agencies across the nation for function and terminal performance. Can others say the same about their handloads?

In my opinion it also lends more credibility in the unfortunate event that you are in a self-defense shooting if you are using the same ammo as LEOs.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:23 PM
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How is the ammunition relevant to a self-defense shooting???
Good shoot or bad shoot.
That is what will be the issue.
Like most people the reloads I carry have a purpose. I pick the bullet, I pick the case, I pick the powder, and I pick the primer.
I do load work up to find the best combination for my gun.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
It predates this 'internet' you like to criticize so often.....on the internet.

And can pretty much be traced to a single source....an Arab Wannabee lawyer who wanted to sell books and get paid for endorsements for ammo companies....which has lead to the vast majority of gun owners having some really backwards ideas about self defense ammunition.
I remember that idiot. Everyone worshiped him and LFI. I stopped reading rags before his hay day.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:26 PM
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How is the ammunition relevant to a self-defense shooting???
Good shoot or bad shoot.
That is what will be the issue.
If your ammo doesn't work correctly there may not be a shooting at all. I'll trust a company that has designed and extensively tested a specific loading over a reloader that may have done a couple thousand shots of their loading, specific to their gun. Others are free to trust their own testing and run with it.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:47 PM
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Pretty sad when your second guessing what some contrived reason a lawyer might say about defending yourself with reloads. I dont think it would even enter a lawyers realm of thought. Justified self defence isnt based on bullet type.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:58 PM
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I have yet to learn of a single case where the SD shooter used reloads and it had any affect on the case.

Please link us to a case that does.

Now, anyone who has experience reloading knows it is extremely hard to get factory +P or +P+ loads that come close to factory velocities.

It is not only the pressure and the burn rate it is the curve in the burn that once near maximum pressure becomes a fine line and a dangerous line at that

Most pistol loads are range loads and are considerably less in velocity as we look for more rounds per pound not max velocity which requires slower powder and larger charges which translates to less round per pound

I have been looking to get close to factory loads in 9MM using Speer Gold Dots 124gr.
Velocities by chronograph are not what is advertised.
I am getting far more felt recoil at 1150FPS than Federal HST 124gr +P at 1200 FPS. The book is a starting point and is not gospel

Point is getting the exact highest load that is safe to shoot and allows for fast follow up is not as easy as one may think and factory hot loads simply give one better performance.

Now, accuracy is altogether a different subject and that is where customizing your loads (particularly to target/sniper rifles) make a big difference
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Old 11-05-2018, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
What we do know, as a fact beyond dispute is that Mr. Fish was convicted in a case involving Self defense where the judge allowed evidence about the defendant's too powerful 10mm, his firearms training, and having too many guns and ammunition.

So Ayboob never says don't use a 10mm or get firearms training or collect a lot of guns and ammunition. We know that will bite you hard. See how stupid it all is???

Thank God Mr. Fish got out of jail when an appellate court overturned the verdict.
You are oversimplifying the Fish case. He was convicted in part because his defense attorney was not knowledgeable in firearms laws and self-defense situations. Secondly, Fish didn't help his case any by shooting a warning shot at the dogs.

He was eventually released from prison because of a change in the law that had it been in effect at the time of his conviction, he might not have been convicted in the first place.
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Old 11-05-2018, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Runamok View Post
I run the same ammo for the same reasons.

The ammo has been vetted be A TON of LE agencies across the nation for function and terminal performance. Can others say the same about their handloads?

In my opinion it also lends more credibility in the unfortunate event that you are in a self-defense shooting if you are using the same ammo as LEOs.
Here’s where it gets interesting. First, I don’t necessarily reload to save a few bucks, but because I can get better performance, more consistently than factory ammo in my firearms. That’s not why everyone reloads, but reloading isn’t about saving a few bucks. Its about getting better performance out of our weapons than factory loads provide. Its just weird that most folks admit the superiority of handloads for all applications except self defense—and so this conversation is fascinating and educational for me to see everyone else’s perspectives.

However, to your point—we handloaders get better performance at the range, and in the field—with handload tailored to our weapons. So I don’t necessarily think that the vetting done by tons of law enforcement agencies is relevant because in most other applications mass-produced components for the “average” application is inferior to handmade custom components for specific applications. The wildcard is, does optimizing for lethality—which law enforcement does with ballistic gel, etc. open us civilians up to increased liability?

And that MAY open up some interesting legal issues—interesting, I say, but not necessarily detrimental. Maybe a prosecutor would look at that? My superficial opinion is that it would not be the marginal element of a case that would cause it to move from not guilty to guilty, or not charged to charged—any more than purchasing a factory load labeled for “self defense”. Its essentially the same opening for a prosecutor to say, “He clearly was prioritizing lethality by seeking out a round specifically designed and marketed for use against human beings” as he could say, “He specifically chose components and tested and optimized them for lethality”. Its the same argument. But I wouldn’t blame anyone for avoiding that potential eventuality.

I do think there may be something to the argument that in long range shooting the marginal improvements from handloading are very noticeable, but when it comes to lethality the “marginal lethality improvement” just isn’t measurable.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:19 PM
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How would they know that you are using reloads in the first place? My reloads(especially SD loads)look like factory.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:33 PM
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I'm not a reloader.

I'd just go with factory SD loads. Pick something mainstream and effective. It's one less thing needed to justify or hire experts to justify. With the costs of legal time, courts, experts, and what is at stake, you're penny wise and pound foolish by using "home made ammo."

If you need to use your gun, there are three possible outcomes:
* Clean shoot - it won't matter. Congrats, you saved 12 cents on the bullets
* Bad shoot - it may matter, and it may enhance criminal liability or civil liability
* Not so clear shooting - we all argue about these online all the time when things aren't clear. And in that case, we scour the person's background, their clothing, their insignia on their rifle/handgun, their reputation, and I'm sure home brew ammo would be a factor.

As to hand loads, it's the same reason it's prudent to not wear offensive or violent T-shirts, put stickers like "if you're found here at night, you'll be taken out in a body bag in the morning," or similar... none of that is illegal but it all paints you in a poor light to the average non-gun owning soccer mom who is against violence. It paints you as a violent natured person looking for a fight.

Most lawyers are social justice warriors. Think of the prosecutor as a guy who doesn't like guns. Think of the jury members as soccer moms who don't like violence. 1/2 of the people in the jury are anti-gun and Hillary voters. That's the average in the room. You might have to justify every possibly choice and decision in a close-call defensive shooting.

Cases are not always clear cut. Take the typical police shooting. You'll get a big group that thinks it was a good shoot, and a big group that says it was a bad shoot. Use that as a barometer. Hand loads might not ever be something that makes or breaks a case, but it's a piece of information that might work against the shooter and one more thing to defend. And if you are considered the "manufacturer" of the weapon, it could go really badly for you in a close call case or verdict.

I'm not sure if linking to another forum is permitted, but in a quick search, I've read other criminal defense lawyers on other gun forums with the same opinion against carrying hand loads. They offer a lot of reasons that I agree with.

For me, if I had to justify my choice of gun and ammo it's simple. The gun I would use is not modified, it's basically as is from the factory, and the ammo is of a mainstream caliber and type that law enforcement and FBI use. I didn't make or modify anything.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:45 PM
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snip

I think the "dont use reloads because they will hang you in court" has been pretty much debunked. Any good lawyer should be able to put that to rest.

snip

Mas Ayoob is an expert ballistics and self defense shooting expert, former cop, impressive resume. He advises against hand loads.

Other than internet hand loaders, who are not experts, I've never seen or heard or read from an actual courtroom or lawyer expert who recommends it.
Most, or all, like me, advise against it.

So it has only been "debunked" in the respect that you should avoid it if possible.

Yes, a good lawyer could put it to rest. Or might not be able to. Or who knows. Lawyers generally charge somewhere around $300-500 per hour for criminal defense work. If a lawyer has to spend 10 hours researching it, putting together information to explain to a jury, hire and expert to explain it or demonstrate it or whatever, you can see how many thousands of dollars would need to be spent on defending the decision.

A good lawyer will tell you ANYTHING can happen in court....

My personal and professional opinion - while not legal advice - is to not use your home brew ammo for self defense. The cost/benefit is woefully in favor of using factory ammo.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:46 PM
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Don't the vast majority of self-defense incidences involve handguns at relatively short distances (say, <40-50 feet)? Are there going to be any significant differences in accuracy & performance, etc., under such circumstances? Supposing the legal considerations are specious and/or mythical, what does handloading for SD gain you?
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by swamppapa View Post
"Hand Loaded Self-Defense Ammunition

Although most well-educated armed citizens have over time come to understand the arguments against using hand loaded ammunition for self defense, the question still comes up from time to time. In over half of the firearms-related cases on which I have worked as an expert, I ended up doing some type of ballistic testing involving either a recoil/ejection pattern test or a gunshot residue/stippling test.

The protocols for these tests are outlined in shooting incident reconstruction textbooks, all of which indicate that the very same type of ammunition must be used to render the tests credible. If I am the expert witness on a case that requires ballistic testing, I hope that the ammunition needed is readily available. If you are using your own hand loads, any testing I might do would be suspect, because even if you supplied hand loads from the same batch as that of the subject ammunition, the question could be raised as to legitimacy of that testing. A skilled reloader could even fashion a hand load to show the same stippling pattern as that discovered as evidence at the scene, but fired from a different distance.

Consequently, it is very important for the paid expert of an innocent defendant in a criminal prosecution to be able to perform ballistic tests with the same ammunition as was used in the shooting. This is the real argument against using hand loads for self defense."

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/gun-modifications
Have you read of or know of anyone prosecuted or have issues in court if he/she used handloads in self defense?
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:51 PM
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I'm not a reloader.

I'd just go with factory SD loads. Pick something mainstream and effective. It's one less thing needed to justify or hire experts to justify. With the costs of legal time, courts, experts, and what is at stake, you're penny wise and pound foolish by using "home made ammo."

If you need to use your gun, there are three possible outcomes:
* Clean shoot - it won't matter. Congrats, you saved 12 cents on the bullets
* Bad shoot - it may matter, and it may enhance criminal liability or civil liability
* Not so clear shooting - we all argue about these online all the time when things aren't clear. And in that case, we scour the person's background, their clothing, their insignia on their rifle/handgun, their reputation, and I'm sure home brew ammo would be a factor.

As to hand loads, it's the same reason it's prudent to not wear offensive or violent T-shirts, put stickers like "if you're found here at night, you'll be taken out in a body bag in the morning," or similar... none of that is illegal but it all paints you in a poor light to the average non-gun owning soccer mom who is against violence. It paints you as a violent natured person looking for a fight.

Most lawyers are social justice warriors. Think of the prosecutor as a guy who doesn't like guns. Think of the jury members as soccer moms who don't like violence. 1/2 of the people in the jury are anti-gun and Hillary voters. That's the average in the room. You might have to justify every possibly choice and decision in a close-call defensive shooting.

Cases are not always clear cut. Take the typical police shooting. You'll get a big group that thinks it was a good shoot, and a big group that says it was a bad shoot. Use that as a barometer. Hand loads might not ever be something that makes or breaks a case, but it's a piece of information that might work against the shooter and one more thing to defend. And if you are considered the "manufacturer" of the weapon, it could go really badly for you in a close call case or verdict.

I'm not sure if linking to another forum is permitted, but in a quick search, I've read other criminal defense lawyers on other gun forums with the same opinion against carrying hand loads. They offer a lot of reasons that I agree with.

For me, if I had to justify my choice of gun and ammo it's simple. The gun I would use is not modified, it's basically as is from the factory, and the ammo is of a mainstream caliber and type that law enforcement and FBI use. I didn't make or modify anything.
Do you know of any court cases that went bad for the shooter if he/she used handloads in a justifiable shooting incident?
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:28 PM
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Mas Ayoob is an expert ballistics and self defense shooting expert, former cop, impressive resume. He advises against hand loads.

Other than internet hand loaders, who are not experts, I've never seen or heard or read from an actual courtroom or lawyer expert who recommends it.
Most, or all, like me, advise against it.

So it has only been "debunked" in the respect that you should avoid it if possible.

Yes, a good lawyer could put it to rest. Or might not be able to. Or who knows. Lawyers generally charge somewhere around $300-500 per hour for criminal defense work. If a lawyer has to spend 10 hours researching it, putting together information to explain to a jury, hire and expert to explain it or demonstrate it or whatever, you can see how many thousands of dollars would need to be spent on defending the decision.

A good lawyer will tell you ANYTHING can happen in court....

My personal and professional opinion - while not legal advice - is to not use your home brew ammo for self defense. The cost/benefit is woefully in favor of using factory ammo.
Youíre talking in circles. Throwing smoke bombs in a hall of mirrors. Wtf are you talking about?

Lawyer right? You say youíre one. Explain to everyone how HANDLOADS will get you a murder wrap in a court of law. Anywhere of your choice in the USA.

Youíre trying the same asinine tricks as ragazine writers. You can only be convicted of breaking a law if it exists. Itís the reason no one has ever been convicted on using handloads in a defense shooting. Itís as simple as itís perfectly legal and itís not possible to be convicted of a crime when there wasnít any. If someone has a lawyer doing research and hiring expert witnesses itís because the client broke a law. Not because they used handloads.

When the basic speed law does not apply during bad weather I can not get a speeding ticket for going 55 in a 55 zone. The judge will throw it out so quick the cop will be looking for a new job if they write a few more tickets like that. If someone uses lethal force within the constraints of the local laws the judge will throw out a case based solely on handloads being used.

You sound worse than the idiot who started this mythical story line. Youíll do a better job proving unicorns exist than convincing anyone youíll be convicted if you use hand loads. All anyone has to do is challenge the lawyer in all this. If anyone can prove their case it would be a lawyer such as yourself. Unless you got proof (we already know you donít) youíre just getting laughed at and perpetuating a myth to the unknowing. Good job guy! Your a huge service to the gun owning world.

Unless you can provide actual evidence you do not need to reply anymore. People want facts. They donít care what youíve been brainwashed to believe.
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:29 PM
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Do you know of any court cases that went bad for the shooter if he/she used handloads in a justifiable shooting incident?
Nope. But lower court cases are often/typically not reported nor create precedent or written opinions.

Further, these small charging decisions might be "unknowable" - meaning someone might have almost gotten charged, but didn't. But if there were something "more" against the guy he might have. Or other situations where small things happen in court rooms or they stick in judges or juries minds in their overall opinion of people.

I can give an analogy. Foul language is not illegal on a firearm. However, in the policy hotel shooting in Arizona a year or two ago, that foul language was used to great extent.

Was the foul language illegal or showing intent? No. Was it a decision in charging the shooter? We'll never know. I'm sure it didn't help the shooter, who was ultimately acquitted. Ruined his life and cost him a fortune.

We all want a edge in self defense. But don't forget you also need an edge in defending your use of those defense weapons.

People tend to forget there's a "first time" for everything. And people forget defending lawsuits means you've already lost - they cost a fortune to defend.
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