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Old 06-03-2012, 01:11 PM
Jeeptj78 Jeeptj78 is offline
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When I was in pornstar school and then in school to go protect cool people, on the edge weapon/knife piece it got beat in our heads to trap the knife arm, then either ruin him, throw him, or shove him off to bear something to stop/kill him.

After I heard different guys from different places preaching the same theme, then proving it redundantly, I became a believer and haven't seen anything better.

The hand is literally faster than the human eye. Lots of stab victims get stabbed several times and never even see the knife, or register that they saw it. Lots of times even witnesses never see the knife from 10 feet from a stabbing.....a human hand is just a blur....anything in the hand can disappear at that speed, especially in limited light.

But an arm...., if you can't get away, you can attack and trap an arm; trap the arm and you limit the knife....then you may counter-attack, or throw, or kick off.

People think it is easy but it is not. An edged weapon/knife is an ambush weapon in the first place. Nobody will pop out and present a knife like a Chuck Norris show. The knife comes in after the victim is already at a grave disadvantage from the ambush/knife introduction.

A guy that tries to pull a handgun in a knife ambush before trapping the arm and then striking, throwing, or shove/kick off is pretty much hopeless and going to be mortally wounded before he or she gets that handgun out. If you limit the knife, then do some blunt force or leverage trauma then throw or shove/kick them off....it is pretty possible to get the handgun into the battle. (But it is important....it was beat into our bucket that you do not bring a gun into a knife ambush....there ain't a such thing as a "knife fight"....not since back around the time electricity was invented.....it is a knife ambush. But if you use a violent memorized response it is possible to create the distance....distance = time....to bring your firearm into the knife ambush and flip the script.)

When I was learning to protect cool people, in school everybody had to perform a certain amount of knife ambushes on other students with a Sharpie marker......we spent damn near the whole school any time expecting to get ambushed....and did. I still to this day habitually do what I learned from necessity. There is only so much you can prevent but if you study real ambushes (we did, thanks to the surveillance age, watch real ones to the point of nausea and beyond) you can reverse-plan and do a lot to be harder to get with a knife.

The very best knife ambushes involve 2 or 3 attackers.....1 or 2 catch a guy near something solid like a wall, or pole, then pin him to it so the knife guy can rush in, kill him, then the attackers leave the victim to die. The only way to protect yourself from that is 1. stay in relative open 2. keep things between you and people and 3. do not be alone. After that it comes down to how violently you fight back and not falling into the "universal fight plan" of just random punching.....train on techniques to trap and then strike, throw, or shove/kick off.......if you are serious, train it until it is a conditioned response that is as reflexive as blinking.

As you know, you cannot condition by thinking on it. Just knowing it will not allow a victim to rise to the occasion. You have to get out on the floor against "opponents", train on both sides of the ambush, and train it over and over and over with a rubber duck or Sharpie or whatever you use.

Anyways that is my 2 pennies.

Summed up there are no knife fights......but every day all day there are knife ambushes. A knife hand is too fast to see, but an arm or elbow can be trapped and pinned on something, even if your own ribcage. Anything you do will probably be wrong, including nothing, so whatever you intend to do, train it until it is so fast and violent that it usually works even against resistance from your partner in training that is anticipating it.

And do not bring your gun into a knife ambush until you create the distance.
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Old 06-03-2012, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by PapaWhiskyBravo View Post
Thanks for all the replies.

I just tried it out at real speed with a friend of mine and it doesnt work! I cant launch my whole body mass fast enough to intercept the knife arm and i, as a previous post said 'got myself impaled'. I can get 2 hands on the arm (if its just a wild swing) but cant turn that into the move i had pictured in my mind.

Ah well live and learn... next time i'll try out a move properly before broadcasting it to the world!
Hey at least you are thinking. Depending on how you get two hands on the arm you might have a good throw, or a way to off balance them and get them on their back. If they are on their back go for the disarm. Throwing a guy with a knife might break them, or they might just get back up and try again.
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Old 06-03-2012, 06:32 PM
BshMstr BshMstr is offline
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There is nothing an ex convict can do, that is not covered in Silat, or Kali. Those two arts came form bladed cultures. Guns are not as common, they have knives everywhere.

Those two arts, more than any other on the planet, are not styles that have some knife techniques grafted onto thier empty hand fighting. They are actually rich, diverse knife fighting arts, that have empty hand techniques grafted on to thier knife fighting.


In my line there is a saying "There is no Silat, without the knife"

They are deep knife fighting arts first. Anything else is secondary.
i think you're misunderstanding what i'm saying there...

not a cricism of Silat or Kali, but more of a statement of what common knife attacks are. i've seen a lot of footage of Kali, and it's very impressive as a style. but in the knife attacks i've seen, they're not impressive, and are extremely simple. much like Jeep said, it's not uncommon for the victim to not know about the attack until they're cut.... the key is to be able to identify the threat and use your technique.


btw, the show "Best Defense" on the Outdoor Channel has some really good scenarios on it (starting Maichael Janich, btw)...
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Old 07-08-2012, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by PapaWhiskyBravo View Post
Something i've been working on for a knife defense. I haven't seen it anywhere before, but theres rarely anything new under the sun so maybe its been thought of and tried before. I got the idea from some sickening footage of an Aussie cop getting smashed by a 'flying headbutt'. He ended up with severe head injuries.

If someone comes in for a mid to low stab, Reach with BOTH hands and grab or stop the knife arm (forearm). In the same movement throw your whole weight forward (leading with the right shoulder) and bend the knees slightly. With your whole body weight moving foward at speed and both hands wrapped around or stopping the knife hand, drive your forehead straight into their face using the power of your legs. Even if you dont fully control the knife arm the power of the head butt should render them at least stunned enough for follow up moves.

I havent had the opportunity to try this at full speed and power with protective gear yet, but seems effective.

Any opinions or critisisms?

EDIT: I TRIED IT OUT PROPERLY AND THIS DOESNT WORK! Live and learn i guess.
This video is an example of some of the WORST technique I've ever seen.

That said.... Keep this in mind:
Safety is from behind.
ALWAYS use a REVERSE GRIP if YOU'RE using the knife.
You're GOING to get cut. Be ready for it.
Silat is pretty good knife technique but full of holes, it will do, if that's all you know. Most people attacking you, have NO idea how to use a knife to begin with anyways.

I DO NOT agree that keeping your distance is best. Concentrating on removing the knife is not a good idea. You need to NEUTRALIZE the knife, not neccessarily take it away. You must redirect the knife, get to the opposite side or the rear of the attacker.

You want to close the distance quickly, getting to a "safe" position, while redirecting the knife, then VOA (Violence of action).

A forward grip is for the fool. The reverse grip, if used properly by your attacker, will kill you.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:02 AM
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i think you're misunderstanding what i'm saying there...

not a cricism of Silat or Kali, but more of a statement of what common knife attacks are. i've seen a lot of footage of Kali, and it's very impressive as a style. but in the knife attacks i've seen, they're not impressive, and are extremely simple. much like Jeep said, it's not uncommon for the victim to not know about the attack until they're cut.... the key is to be able to identify the threat and use your technique.


btw, the show "Best Defense" on the Outdoor Channel has some really good scenarios on it (starting Maichael Janich, btw)...
Don't worry about criticizing any knife technique. Silat and Kali are "fair" in my opinion, I don't care HOW many years it has been developed. The proper technique for knife combatives is a personal thing for everyone. You can not nail it down to a "form". JUST not possible. the dynamics of knife combat change instant to instant. I have worked with just about every known knifestyle. Not studying them myself, but working with others of different styles. I can tell you from personal experience, you MUST develope your style to suit YOU, Not what "others" do. I have yet to find anyone with a knife style that I can't "William Wallace" real quick! Now, there are roughly 250+ American soldiers, Army and Marines that know how to do what I do, because I taught them. None have been killed or injured more than "minor" injuries, and have killed MANY taliban and Al qaida that are trained in Silat or Kali. I wish I could get all of you for a class just to show you. I think you'd like it.

What I teach is SO damned simple, you'd be shocked. I can teach a ten year old girl how to do this in a couple 8 hr classes, and with a little practice, you would NOT want to get into a knife fight with her.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:17 AM
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Hey at least you are thinking. Depending on how you get two hands on the arm you might have a good throw, or a way to off balance them and get them on their back. If they are on their back go for the disarm. Throwing a guy with a knife might break them, or they might just get back up and try again.
While you're concentrating on grabbing his knife hand with both hands, He will wrap you up and fall on you. The knife goes inside your body, and now you're screwed! Or he can crush your knee with a kick, or pull a knife with the other hand and gut you like a fish.

Do you have ANY Idea how difficult it is to grab someones knife hand at full speed? If you're not Bruce Lee, don't even try it. Even Bruce had the good sense of deflecting, or redirecting the knife.

Keep in mind that your attacker is PROBABLY not an idiot! and is hopped up on adrenaline.

NEVER under estimate your attacker! Good rule of thumb:
ALWAYS assume your attacker is faster, stronger and better trained than you, I don't care WHO it is.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:26 AM
PapaWhiskyBravo PapaWhiskyBravo is offline
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Don't worry about criticizing any knife technique. Silat and Kali are "fair" in my opinion, I don't care HOW many years it has been developed. The proper technique for knife combatives is a personal thing for everyone. You can not nail it down to a "form". JUST not possible. the dynamics of knife combat change instant to instant. I have worked with just about every known knifestyle. Not studying them myself, but working with others of different styles. I can tell you from personal experience, you MUST develope your style to suit YOU, Not what "others" do. I have yet to find anyone with a knife style that I can't "William Wallace" real quick! Now, there are roughly 250+ American soldiers, Army and Marines that know how to do what I do, because I taught them. None have been killed or injured more than "minor" injuries, and have killed MANY taliban and Al qaida that are trained in Silat or Kali. I wish I could get all of you for a class just to show you. I think you'd like it.

What I teach is SO damned simple, you'd be shocked. I can teach a ten year old girl how to do this in a couple 8 hr classes, and with a little practice, you would NOT want to get into a knife fight with her.
Got a vid?

If not can you talk us through it?
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:32 AM
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Got a vid?

If not can you talk us through it?
I won't do vids, but I can certainly help. We'll start here and if y'all are interested, I'll continue on.

There are some nuances that I just-can't-explain, that you'll hopefully figure out for yourself.

Confirm in the next post and I'll continue.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:37 AM
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Sure go ahead man. I'll be back later.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:41 AM
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I was tought to block or stop the knife hand and slash or stab the eyes. The most vital organ in a knife fight is the eyes.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:52 AM
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[QUOTE=rover;4357127]I was tought to block or stop the knife hand and slash or stab the eyes. The most vital organ in a knife fight is the eyes.[/QUOTE

Zup Rov.?.....
I heard Dr John Meade say think where you don't want to be cut then go there 1st...

To Drago yep spread the word I all about getting my "learn on' as long as you don't show up in the "Short Bus Commando Bus talking about the Forum Legion.."
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Old 07-08-2012, 04:42 AM
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Sure go ahead man. I'll be back later.
Ok, first thing: This is my technique. I invented it, the military has approved me teaching it after doing several really scary (to them) demos for the DoD, OCS and Army. It works, I have my own contract.

1) Choose a knife you're comfortable with that has a slightly ergonomic handle. I prefer the non-serrated edge Buck Nighthawk, although there are others that will do the job. For me, a knife with a blade between 6.5 and 7 inches is just right.

2) The only "Martial art" in this is sharpening your knife correctly. You want it SCARY sharp. If you already know how do do this, you are ahead of the game. This knife is NEVER used for anything but life and death COMBAT. Hopefully, it will NEVER be needed.

3) The best way to mount your knife is on your dominant side at a 35 to 45 degree angle at the belt line, pummel end forward and BLADE EDGE DOWN! This is important! The angle should actually be to your liking, but somewhere that you can pull and strike in one motion easily. When you draw your knife from this position, it will be in REVERSE grip. NEVER use it in forward grip

4) The only "fine" motor skill, is learning how to "flip" your blade edge out, and edge in... Out and in ONLY. I can't explain this, but I can do it without loostening my grip. Use your thumb. Practice. NEVER put your thumb over the pummel. the pummel is an important weapon and it will weaken your grip. You DON'T want to lose your knife at the moment of truth!

5) Hold your knife out at arms length. The knife blade should be edge OUT and 90 degrees to your arm. Bend your wrist at a right angle. the BACK of your knife will be resting comfortably against your forearm, or close to it EDGE OUT. get used to this position as you'll be using it as a basic position. This is why you need a knife with a slightly "ergonomic" handle. You MUST know WHERE that blade edge is by feeling the position of the handle in your hand or you WILL cut yourself. Ask me how I know! Also, in this position, it is nearly impossible for someone to grab your wrist or hand without getting severely cut. If someone DOES manage to grab your wrist, there is a very easy technique you can use to make them let go and they'll lose a hand, or at least half of a hand. I can see now that I am going to need to upload pics. Maybe I can get Miss "K" to help me with this tomorrow.

There are only two basic positions with the knife. Forward position, with the knife in front of you, and rearward position, where the knife is close to your body. Which position you use doesn't depend on technique, it depends on if you're left handed, right handed, prefer leading with an opened hand or with your knife hand, or defending against another knife. IT IS personal preference. I personally prefer leading with my open hand about 60% of the time UNLESS defending against another knife!

6) MAKE your body work for you. I studied Aikido for 20 yrs or so. I know alot of you don't like Aikido, but the fact is, it is THE best martial art for learning how to move around on your center and your feet, regardless how you feel about the rest of it. Learn to move around gracefully on your center and feet. It's not difficult once you figure it out. This will be VERY important!

Using a knife against an unarmed assailant. Sounds dirty, right? Well, when SHTF and you have kids to feed and a wife who depends on you living, who gives a sh!t how dirty you fight. Lets be real. If you have a knife, USE IT and use it first if you fear some ape is going to pummel you into mush.

Make sense? I'm fifty years old, I'm using my knife.

Using a knife against a person with a firearm (not drawn). If he already has his gun drawn..... Don't be stupid... RUN!

Defending against a knife attack. PULL YOUR KNIFE IMMEDIATELY! I don't care WHO says different... Hundreds of hours of experimenting has told me CLOSE THE DISTANCE. "Dancing" with a knife fighter, even if he really doesn't know what he's doing is DANGEROUS business, and you'll probably get cut up pretty bad. Deflect it, block it, position yourself at a safe angle from it, pin it. Do NOT "grab" the knife hand you WILL get cut! It is extremely difficult to catch someones hand, especially if they're quicker and/or stronger than you........ Which brings me to my next point.... Never EVER under estimate an opponent. ALWAYS assume he is faster, stronger and better trained than you.

Make sense?

I will add more tomorrow with pics hopefully.
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Old 07-08-2012, 04:55 AM
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[quote=otto3333333;4357138]
Quote:
Originally Posted by rover View Post
I was tought to block or stop the knife hand and slash or stab the eyes. The most vital organ in a knife fight is the eyes.[/QUOTE

Zup Rov.?.....
I heard Dr John Meade say think where you don't want to be cut then go there 1st...

To Drago yep spread the word I all about getting my "learn on' as long as you don't show up in the "Short Bus Commando Bus talking about the Forum Legion.."
Huh?
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Old 07-08-2012, 05:03 AM
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I was tought to block or stop the knife hand and slash or stab the eyes. The most vital organ in a knife fight is the eyes.
Untrue, the most VITAL thing to strike in a knife fight is the hands and wrists! Cut the tendons and it doesn't matter what he sees, he's done.
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Old 07-08-2012, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeeptj78 View Post
When I was in pornstar school and then in school to go protect cool people, on the edge weapon/knife piece it got beat in our heads to trap the knife arm, then either ruin him, throw him, or shove him off to bear something to stop/kill him.

After I heard different guys from different places preaching the same theme, then proving it redundantly, I became a believer and haven't seen anything better.

The hand is literally faster than the human eye. Lots of stab victims get stabbed several times and never even see the knife, or register that they saw it. Lots of times even witnesses never see the knife from 10 feet from a stabbing.....a human hand is just a blur....anything in the hand can disappear at that speed, especially in limited light.

But an arm...., if you can't get away, you can attack and trap an arm; trap the arm and you limit the knife....then you may counter-attack, or throw, or kick off.

People think it is easy but it is not. An edged weapon/knife is an ambush weapon in the first place. Nobody will pop out and present a knife like a Chuck Norris show. The knife comes in after the victim is already at a grave disadvantage from the ambush/knife introduction.

A guy that tries to pull a handgun in a knife ambush before trapping the arm and then striking, throwing, or shove/kick off is pretty much hopeless and going to be mortally wounded before he or she gets that handgun out. If you limit the knife, then do some blunt force or leverage trauma then throw or shove/kick them off....it is pretty possible to get the handgun into the battle. (But it is important....it was beat into our bucket that you do not bring a gun into a knife ambush....there ain't a such thing as a "knife fight"....not since back around the time electricity was invented.....it is a knife ambush. But if you use a violent memorized response it is possible to create the distance....distance = time....to bring your firearm into the knife ambush and flip the script.)

When I was learning to protect cool people, in school everybody had to perform a certain amount of knife ambushes on other students with a Sharpie marker......we spent damn near the whole school any time expecting to get ambushed....and did. I still to this day habitually do what I learned from necessity. There is only so much you can prevent but if you study real ambushes (we did, thanks to the surveillance age, watch real ones to the point of nausea and beyond) you can reverse-plan and do a lot to be harder to get with a knife.

The very best knife ambushes involve 2 or 3 attackers.....1 or 2 catch a guy near something solid like a wall, or pole, then pin him to it so the knife guy can rush in, kill him, then the attackers leave the victim to die. The only way to protect yourself from that is 1. stay in relative open 2. keep things between you and people and 3. do not be alone. After that it comes down to how violently you fight back and not falling into the "universal fight plan" of just random punching.....train on techniques to trap and then strike, throw, or shove/kick off.......if you are serious, train it until it is a conditioned response that is as reflexive as blinking.

As you know, you cannot condition by thinking on it. Just knowing it will not allow a victim to rise to the occasion. You have to get out on the floor against "opponents", train on both sides of the ambush, and train it over and over and over with a rubber duck or Sharpie or whatever you use.

Anyways that is my 2 pennies.

Summed up there are no knife fights......but every day all day there are knife ambushes. A knife hand is too fast to see, but an arm or elbow can be trapped and pinned on something, even if your own ribcage. Anything you do will probably be wrong, including nothing, so whatever you intend to do, train it until it is so fast and violent that it usually works even against resistance from your partner in training that is anticipating it.

And do not bring your gun into a knife ambush until you create the distance.
I FULLY concur! nice post.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:42 AM
PapaWhiskyBravo PapaWhiskyBravo is offline
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6) MAKE your body work for you. I studied Aikido for 20 yrs or so. I know alot of you don't like Aikido, but the fact is, it is THE best martial art for learning how to move around on your center and your feet, regardless how you feel about the rest of it. Learn to move around gracefully on your center and feet. It's not difficult once you figure it out. This will be VERY important!


I will add more tomorrow with pics hopefully.
Yes, footwork is fundamental.

I downloaded the 'Coldsteel' knife fighting dvd and i must say a most of it is superfulous, but the footwork part realy made sense to me. I dont believe in the knife duel scenarios they propose, but when unarmed against a knife or when creating openings against an opponant with a hand held weapon, footwork can give you the space to avoid and close or redirect and run.

In fact i've adapted the footwork to my unarmed self defense work too and have been practising it often. I cant believe that i was never taught proper footwork in the MA i've done. Its so fricken effective!
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Old 07-08-2012, 04:12 PM
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Don't worry about criticizing any knife technique. Silat and Kali are "fair" in my opinion, I don't care HOW many years it has been developed. The proper technique for knife combatives is a personal thing for everyone. You can not nail it down to a "form". JUST not possible. the dynamics of knife combat change instant to instant. I have worked with just about every known knifestyle. Not studying them myself, but working with others of different styles. I can tell you from personal experience, you MUST develope your style to suit YOU, Not what "others" do. I have yet to find anyone with a knife style that I can't "William Wallace" real quick! Now, there are roughly 250+ American soldiers, Army and Marines that know how to do what I do, because I taught them. None have been killed or injured more than "minor" injuries, and have killed MANY taliban and Al qaida that are trained in Silat or Kali. I wish I could get all of you for a class just to show you. I think you'd like it.

What I teach is SO damned simple, you'd be shocked. I can teach a ten year old girl how to do this in a couple 8 hr classes, and with a little practice, you would NOT want to get into a knife fight with her.

Can you provide video of you training military personnel.......I mean you did train 250 of them you surely got a video of one training session. Also I have never heard of Marines killing anyone with a knife in the Stan or Iraq....can you provide proof of this. I am a former Marine and I have buddies that are were over there and some still there and no one mentioned anyone killing a Taliban with a blade......that would be something to brag about for sure.
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Old 07-08-2012, 05:52 PM
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Can you provide video of you training military personnel.......I mean you did train 250 of them you surely got a video of one training session. Also I have never heard of Marines killing anyone with a knife in the Stan or Iraq....can you provide proof of this. I am a former Marine and I have buddies that are were over there and some still there and no one mentioned anyone killing a Taliban with a blade......that would be something to brag about for sure.
I don't do videos, nor do I allow cameras in my class. Yes I have taught Marines, some Navy and mostly Army. Actually, over 250 of them. I don't need to provide "proof". I'm not in to "post-p!ssing". I'm not trying to be an ass-o, but the technique speaks for itself. When I'm in to it more, you can make that decision for yourself. This is the internet and I don't, and won't divulge information on where I work, or anything else involved. Being military, I'm sure you'll understand.

It's not a matter of "bragging" rights. I feel no need for that. It has taken me a couple years reading these posts before deciding to help. Personally, it's kind of against my better judgement as I only know a couple of you personally. However, there are many on here I have found are consistant. I have spent HOURS, sometimes DAYS investigating some of your posts.

Take it for what it's worth to you. I know you're a knife instructor too. I don't claim what I do is better, but it's probably different. If it works for you, great, I commend you. I expect the same courtesy, and look forward maybe of someday meeting some of you. Until then, take it for what it's worth.

Not everyone I train needs to pull their knife. I have gotten reports back from 10 or so soldiers over an eight year period, confirming effectiveness. One was a Marine, One was Navy, a couple National guard, but mostly regular Army.
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Old 07-09-2012, 01:09 AM
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I don't do videos, nor do I allow cameras in my class. Yes I have taught Marines, some Navy and mostly Army. Actually, over 250 of them. I don't need to provide "proof". I'm not in to "post-p!ssing". I'm not trying to be an ass-o, but the technique speaks for itself. When I'm in to it more, you can make that decision for yourself. This is the internet and I don't, and won't divulge information on where I work, or anything else involved. Being military, I'm sure you'll understand.

It's not a matter of "bragging" rights. I feel no need for that. It has taken me a couple years reading these posts before deciding to help. Personally, it's kind of against my better judgement as I only know a couple of you personally. However, there are many on here I have found are consistant. I have spent HOURS, sometimes DAYS investigating some of your posts.

Take it for what it's worth to you. I know you're a knife instructor too. I don't claim what I do is better, but it's probably different. If it works for you, great, I commend you. I expect the same courtesy, and look forward maybe of someday meeting some of you. Until then, take it for what it's worth.

Not everyone I train needs to pull their knife. I have gotten reports back from 10 or so soldiers over an eight year period, confirming effectiveness. One was a Marine, One was Navy, a couple National guard, but mostly regular Army.

I can understand...no need for some **** taking your ideas and using it to make money for themselves.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:13 AM
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I can understand...no need for some **** taking your ideas and using it to make money for themselves.
It's not even that, it's not the money at all. Cameras are VERBOTEN on the base, unless there is an MOS for it.

It took a few years of coaxing by my NCOIC, to get me to teach. Up until then, only my Daughters knew how to do what I do, and in fact, Miss "K" recently started helping me in class.

This is really easy to learn and I don't think it's appropriate to post on YouTube for any idiot, or gangbanger, to download and hurt someone with. It's a principles thing. I feel its a big risk posting anything on here, but I have a soft spot for preppers and survivalists, and tend to be a little more trusting with them than I probably should.

I will post with pics this week, Miss "K" was pretty busy today and we couldn't work it in.
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