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Old 07-14-2011, 11:45 PM
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What I see here, which you had not highlighted but which I have, are the words "IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST." The apostles had no authority of their own, the power had been delegated as Firebird has said, but it is only IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST. However, the authority still rests with Christ. For without Jesus, there is no authority, and all authority had been entrusted to Jesus until all the enemies of God, all the authorities, have submitted to him. After that time, Jesus will turn that authority over to God.

God has delegated authority to Christ, but he doesn't lose his authority. It's only that those who believe they can have God...and no Christ...will perish, for God has given that power to Christ. If anyone wishes to be saved it must be through Christ. His is the name we call on to be saved, not an apostle or an institution like the Roman Catholic Church. Christ is the authority, until the end times, when he relinquishes all his authority back to the Father. But presently, He is the authority.

In Christ,

-Tom
touch on this more for me please

and all authority had been entrusted to Jesus until all the enemies of God, all the authorities, have submitted to him.

i mean surely not everything or everyone or every nation is the enemy of God, so Christ came to gather the lost an subdo enemies? im not His enemy, nor is alot of Hindu's or Buddist???

i cant get my hands around this
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Old 07-14-2011, 11:59 PM
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this is the Y'shua that I somehow have met

And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:


Mat 5:2 And He opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,


Mat 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Mat 5:4 Blessed [are] they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.


Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.


Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.


Mat 5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.


Mat 5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.


Mat 5:9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.


Mat 5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.


Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Standox View Post
touch on this more for me please

and all authority had been entrusted to Jesus until all the enemies of God, all the authorities, have submitted to him.

i mean surely not everything or everyone or every nation is the enemy of God, so Christ came to gather the lost an subdo enemies? im not His enemy, nor is alot of Hindu's or Buddist???

i cant get my hands around this
Yes, Standox, I understand that it's a difficult concept for our human minds to grasp. The only reason why I grasp it is because of my faith that it's true. I cannot offer any proof other than what I read in the testimony of the Scriptures. So the Scriptures give evidence, but they were authored by Christ...and so I believe the Scriptures because of my faith in Christ as possessing the truth and the ability to let me understand the truth.

Yeah, I know...I'm not doing a very good job explaining myself, and I apologize.

To be blunt, if anyone does not accept Jesus Christ in the same way they accept God, then they are not of "true" Israel. The Father testifies that Christ is his Son. Others testified that Christ was the Son of God. Demons testified. There is Biblical evidence that He is who He claims to be. Without discussing details of the new covenant, because they may offend some, I'll just stick to what most already profess agreement: the law does not save, only through Christ can we be saved.

So what does that mean, only through? Well, we believe that his sacrifice was able to appease the lawful requirements of God. The law stated that a blood sacrifice was required to remove sin. The Mosaic practice in the temple foreshadowed Christ's own sacrifice. It was a practice run, only prophesying what was to come in the future.

The people deserved the penalty for their sin, and yet it was not them dying, but rather an innocent creature was sacrificed in their place. The people just didn't comprehend it, or perhaps some did but didn't want to acknowledge it. They figured that as long as sacrifices were being made for them that it meant they did not have to take personal responsibility for their own sins. There would always be that offering there to absolve it. I'm not saying that everyone felt this way, but most probably did. I had used an example in another thread where a person may come up to a public restroom and see a "no smoking sign" on the door. It pictures an x-ed out cigarette. So, I see the x-ed out cigarette and think, "Okay, I can't smoke a cigarette in here" so I pull out a pipe and smoke that instead, for technically I'm not violating the law., as the symbol does not show an x-ed out pipe. So then is smoking the pipe a violation? Of course! Because the intent of the symbol is that NO SMOKING is allowed. Some signs even have these words with the symbol, in case some goof tries to bend the rules like I explained above. In the same way, most people did the same thing concerning the Mosaic law; they looked for loopholes and ways to bypass the intention of the law. Again, I'm not going to get into my personal views on the law, so I'm not going to elaborate further on that part.

The sacrifices under the old covenant did not work because the people were not remaining faithful to God 24/7 (just like no one today). God says he desires mercy, not sacrifice. But the people preferred to practice animal sacrifice because it gave them a scapegoat for their transgressions. After all, if they weren't the one that was going to die for their sins then what did it matter to them if an animal were killed in their place? They lacked personal responsibility. God had hoped that they would stop sinning by turning to Him in faith for direction, rather than trusting in just another yearly sacrifice. If they would simply have been faithful then the sacrifices would have stopped. So then this is why Christ entered the picture (at least in part). He came to save the unrighteous (which pretty much meant everyone, because all of us are sinners and therefore all of us are unrighteous).

If we believe that He is the Son of God, and that if we place our trust in Him that His sacrifice wiped away all of our sins, then we are justified before God. God gave his authority to Christ so that we can trust in Christ. We trust in Christ because we believe that he is God incarnate.

Isaiah speaks how no one was righteous so God worked his own righteousness. This meant that God provided a way out for the people. The law demands a death penalty, so if we believe that Christ's death paid that penalty then we are justified. Christ is the High Priest in the order of Melchizidek, and he sacrificed himself. He laid down his life for us, to save us. Think of it in broad terms if you must...like there is a building burning down and you're injured and cannot move. Instead of him leaving you there to burn, he comes in stretches his arms out for you...and you grab hold and he carries you out. He could have let you burn but he reached out for you and you accepted his gift. But then he goes back in the burning building for someone else and disappears. Then the whole roof crashes down and he's gone. He sacrificed himself for you and countless others.

So God have him the authority, the power, to forgive sins. Most will attest to this. And then we honor Christ's memory by living as selfless as He did. When we see someone in need we help them as He has helped us. We do what we can because He sacrificed so much for us.

And then the end times finally come around, and the judgment is at hand. All the nations are gathered...all the religions of the world and all the atheists and everyone else. And someone who did not trust in Christ as their sacrifice is judged and they are questioned: "Why did you not accept the outstretched gift that Christ offered to you while you had the opportunity? Is it because you did not wish to accept and then be compelled to help others in return?" The accused will stand mute because they will not be able to reply. They know that they are condemned because they did not accept Christ as Savior, and Lord. Then the accused will be convicted and found guilty, and cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.

The only way someone can believe in Christ, and believe that His death will pay the penalty for them and that He is there to give us strength to deal with the sufferings in this life, is to believe that He has been given the authority of God to do these things. If Christ has no authority then His sacrifice has no power and no one is saved.

He has the authority to justify us before God, but also the right to condemn those who rejected him. Even Satan will have to acknowledge that Jesus is Lord at the end times, before Satan is cast into the fire. He's not going to be worshiping Christ, but he will have to admit that Christ is God. He will be compelled to do so...he will not be able to resist in admitting this fact.

And then, once all earthly powers and authorities have been placed under his feet...once he has been shown as the sovereign power over all things...only then will he relinquish this power to God.

I hope that I was able to convey the message adequately.

In Christ,

-Tom
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Standox View Post
this is the Y'shua that I somehow have met

And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:


Mat 5:2 And He opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,


Mat 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Mat 5:4 Blessed [are] they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.


Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.


Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.


Mat 5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.


Mat 5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.


Mat 5:9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.


Mat 5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.


Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Thats the one you know, thats what you go with. Any thing else is purely human speculation and guessing.
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:37 AM
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Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
I'd say this pretty much points to Christ's sacrifice, for only through him can we be righteous before God. Anything other would be "self" righteousness. (DISCLAIMER: Absolutely no insult or offense intended here; if I had said the words to you in a conversation you'd pick up the tone I infer).

In Christ,

-Tom
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Old 07-15-2011, 02:35 AM
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I can understand why some people might be confused about the meaning of John 1:1...

John 1:1...
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.


Question: How many people refer to the Scriptures as "He"? Yeah, my Bible's got a name, it's called "He" and I'm carrying God under my arm. Notice that "Word" is capitalized, denoting a pronoun. I'll get into that more a bit later.

The "Word" is Christ/Truth, not the Scriptures. Christ existed with God in the beginning, it was not the Scriptures. I knew when this thread progressed that it would be only a matter of time before someone would pull out the "Word" card, using John 1:1 in an attempt to support their hypothesis that this implies the Scriptures are the authority, rather than Christ. Christ is the Word, and Christ is Truth:

Revelation 19:11...
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.


John 1:14...
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the Only Begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


Christ is not Scripture that has taken human likeness, Christ is God taken human likeness. Some people say that the Torah is Christ, but then they're saying that the Torah is God! If anyone believes this they are under a strong delusion. It must be understood that when the word "Word" is capitalized, it denotes Christ, unlike "word" which refers to the spoken word or written word of Scriptures (a noun, because it's an object). The reference of Word in John 1:1 is that of a pronoun:

pro·noun
n. Abbr. pron. or pr.
1. The part of speech that substitutes for nouns or noun phrases and designates persons or things asked for, previously specified, or understood from the context.
2. Any of the words within this part of speech, such as he or whom. A word used instead of a noun (or a phrase containing a noun) 'He', 'who', and 'anything' are pronouns.

Another example:

Revelation 19:13...
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood and His name is the Word of God.


I don't think a Bible is going to be wearing a robe dipped in blood with a monogram on the front pocket...
The Scriptures only testify or give evidence to Christ, they are not Christ nor are they the authority, they are only authoritative. The authority itself is Christ, who wrote the Scriptures through the Holy Spirit. If anyone has authority, it is only because God chooses to give it to them:

John 19:10-11...
"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power to free you or crucify you?" Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."


And God's authority rests with Christ until the end time:

John 17:1-3...
After Jesus said this, He looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.


1 Peter 3:22...
...who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand - with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.


John 3:35...
"The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in His hands. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."


Hebrews 3:3...
Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself.


Matthew 28:18...
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."


In Christ,

-Tom
Okay I think I get what your saying. My understanding is that God in his nature (omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent) is perfect. Therefore what he speaks has also got to be perfect. Therefore, if scripture is the word of God then that also must be perfect and non-contradictory. It cannot contradict who God is or what he commands.

Now the trinity also falls into this but collectively they are all God and thus the same applies to all 3 of them (Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit). I may not have the proper grammar down but the concept is simple to understand.
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Old 07-15-2011, 06:37 AM
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Yes, Standox, I understand that it's a difficult concept for our human minds to grasp. The only reason why I grasp it is because of my faith that it's true. I cannot offer any proof other than what I read in the testimony of the Scriptures. So the Scriptures give evidence, but they were authored by Christ...and so I believe the Scriptures because of my faith in Christ as possessing the truth and the ability to let me understand the truth.

Yeah, I know...I'm not doing a very good job explaining myself, and I apologize.

To be blunt, if anyone does not accept Jesus Christ in the same way they accept God, then they are not of "true" Israel. The Father testifies that Christ is his Son. Others testified that Christ was the Son of God. Demons testified. There is Biblical evidence that He is who He claims to be. Without discussing details of the new covenant, because they may offend some, I'll just stick to what most already profess agreement: the law does not save, only through Christ can we be saved.

So what does that mean, only through? Well, we believe that his sacrifice was able to appease the lawful requirements of God. The law stated that a blood sacrifice was required to remove sin. The Mosaic practice in the temple foreshadowed Christ's own sacrifice. It was a practice run, only prophesying what was to come in the future.

The people deserved the penalty for their sin, and yet it was not them dying, but rather an innocent creature was sacrificed in their place. The people just didn't comprehend it, or perhaps some did but didn't want to acknowledge it. They figured that as long as sacrifices were being made for them that it meant they did not have to take personal responsibility for their own sins. There would always be that offering there to absolve it. I'm not saying that everyone felt this way, but most probably did. I had used an example in another thread where a person may come up to a public restroom and see a "no smoking sign" on the door. It pictures an x-ed out cigarette. So, I see the x-ed out cigarette and think, "Okay, I can't smoke a cigarette in here" so I pull out a pipe and smoke that instead, for technically I'm not violating the law., as the symbol does not show an x-ed out pipe. So then is smoking the pipe a violation? Of course! Because the intent of the symbol is that NO SMOKING is allowed. Some signs even have these words with the symbol, in case some goof tries to bend the rules like I explained above. In the same way, most people did the same thing concerning the Mosaic law; they looked for loopholes and ways to bypass the intention of the law. Again, I'm not going to get into my personal views on the law, so I'm not going to elaborate further on that part.

The sacrifices under the old covenant did not work because the people were not remaining faithful to God 24/7 (just like no one today). God says he desires mercy, not sacrifice. But the people preferred to practice animal sacrifice because it gave them a scapegoat for their transgressions. After all, if they weren't the one that was going to die for their sins then what did it matter to them if an animal were killed in their place? They lacked personal responsibility. God had hoped that they would stop sinning by turning to Him in faith for direction, rather than trusting in just another yearly sacrifice. If they would simply have been faithful then the sacrifices would have stopped. So then this is why Christ entered the picture (at least in part). He came to save the unrighteous (which pretty much meant everyone, because all of us are sinners and therefore all of us are unrighteous).

If we believe that He is the Son of God, and that if we place our trust in Him that His sacrifice wiped away all of our sins, then we are justified before God. God gave his authority to Christ so that we can trust in Christ. We trust in Christ because we believe that he is God incarnate.

Isaiah speaks how no one was righteous so God worked his own righteousness. This meant that God provided a way out for the people. The law demands a death penalty, so if we believe that Christ's death paid that penalty then we are justified. Christ is the High Priest in the order of Melchizidek, and he sacrificed himself. He laid down his life for us, to save us. Think of it in broad terms if you must...like there is a building burning down and you're injured and cannot move. Instead of him leaving you there to burn, he comes in stretches his arms out for you...and you grab hold and he carries you out. He could have let you burn but he reached out for you and you accepted his gift. But then he goes back in the burning building for someone else and disappears. Then the whole roof crashes down and he's gone. He sacrificed himself for you and countless others.

So God have him the authority, the power, to forgive sins. Most will attest to this. And then we honor Christ's memory by living as selfless as He did. When we see someone in need we help them as He has helped us. We do what we can because He sacrificed so much for us.

And then the end times finally come around, and the judgment is at hand. All the nations are gathered...all the religions of the world and all the atheists and everyone else. And someone who did not trust in Christ as their sacrifice is judged and they are questioned: "Why did you not accept the outstretched gift that Christ offered to you while you had the opportunity? Is it because you did not wish to accept and then be compelled to help others in return?" The accused will stand mute because they will not be able to reply. They know that they are condemned because they did not accept Christ as Savior, and Lord. Then the accused will be convicted and found guilty, and cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.

The only way someone can believe in Christ, and believe that His death will pay the penalty for them and that He is there to give us strength to deal with the sufferings in this life, is to believe that He has been given the authority of God to do these things. If Christ has no authority then His sacrifice has no power and no one is saved.

He has the authority to justify us before God, but also the right to condemn those who rejected him. Even Satan will have to acknowledge that Jesus is Lord at the end times, before Satan is cast into the fire. He's not going to be worshiping Christ, but he will have to admit that Christ is God. He will be compelled to do so...he will not be able to resist in admitting this fact.

And then, once all earthly powers and authorities have been placed under his feet...once he has been shown as the sovereign power over all things...only then will he relinquish this power to God.

I hope that I was able to convey the message adequately.

In Christ,

-Tom
Now, at what point does this Bible-alone thing kick in?
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Old 07-15-2011, 07:06 AM
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Yes, Standox, I understand that it's a difficult concept for our human minds to grasp. The only reason why I grasp it is because of my faith that it's true. I cannot offer any proof other than what I read in the testimony of the Scriptures. So the Scriptures give evidence, but they were authored by Christ...and so I believe the Scriptures because of my faith in Christ as possessing the truth and the ability to let me understand the truth.

Yeah, I know...I'm not doing a very good job explaining myself, and I apologize.

To be blunt, if anyone does not accept Jesus Christ in the same way they accept God, then they are not of "true" Israel. The Father testifies that Christ is his Son. Others testified that Christ was the Son of God. Demons testified. There is Biblical evidence that He is who He claims to be. Without discussing details of the new covenant, because they may offend some, I'll just stick to what most already profess agreement: the law does not save, only through Christ can we be saved.

So what does that mean, only through? Well, we believe that his sacrifice was able to appease the lawful requirements of God. The law stated that a blood sacrifice was required to remove sin. The Mosaic practice in the temple foreshadowed Christ's own sacrifice. It was a practice run, only prophesying what was to come in the future.

The people deserved the penalty for their sin, and yet it was not them dying, but rather an innocent creature was sacrificed in their place. The people just didn't comprehend it, or perhaps some did but didn't want to acknowledge it. They figured that as long as sacrifices were being made for them that it meant they did not have to take personal responsibility for their own sins. There would always be that offering there to absolve it. I'm not saying that everyone felt this way, but most probably did. I had used an example in another thread where a person may come up to a public restroom and see a "no smoking sign" on the door. It pictures an x-ed out cigarette. So, I see the x-ed out cigarette and think, "Okay, I can't smoke a cigarette in here" so I pull out a pipe and smoke that instead, for technically I'm not violating the law., as the symbol does not show an x-ed out pipe. So then is smoking the pipe a violation? Of course! Because the intent of the symbol is that NO SMOKING is allowed. Some signs even have these words with the symbol, in case some goof tries to bend the rules like I explained above. In the same way, most people did the same thing concerning the Mosaic law; they looked for loopholes and ways to bypass the intention of the law. Again, I'm not going to get into my personal views on the law, so I'm not going to elaborate further on that part.

The sacrifices under the old covenant did not work because the people were not remaining faithful to God 24/7 (just like no one today). God says he desires mercy, not sacrifice. But the people preferred to practice animal sacrifice because it gave them a scapegoat for their transgressions. After all, if they weren't the one that was going to die for their sins then what did it matter to them if an animal were killed in their place? They lacked personal responsibility. God had hoped that they would stop sinning by turning to Him in faith for direction, rather than trusting in just another yearly sacrifice. If they would simply have been faithful then the sacrifices would have stopped. So then this is why Christ entered the picture (at least in part). He came to save the unrighteous (which pretty much meant everyone, because all of us are sinners and therefore all of us are unrighteous).

If we believe that He is the Son of God, and that if we place our trust in Him that His sacrifice wiped away all of our sins, then we are justified before God. God gave his authority to Christ so that we can trust in Christ. We trust in Christ because we believe that he is God incarnate.

Isaiah speaks how no one was righteous so God worked his own righteousness. This meant that God provided a way out for the people. The law demands a death penalty, so if we believe that Christ's death paid that penalty then we are justified. Christ is the High Priest in the order of Melchizidek, and he sacrificed himself. He laid down his life for us, to save us. Think of it in broad terms if you must...like there is a building burning down and you're injured and cannot move. Instead of him leaving you there to burn, he comes in stretches his arms out for you...and you grab hold and he carries you out. He could have let you burn but he reached out for you and you accepted his gift. But then he goes back in the burning building for someone else and disappears. Then the whole roof crashes down and he's gone. He sacrificed himself for you and countless others.

So God have him the authority, the power, to forgive sins. Most will attest to this. And then we honor Christ's memory by living as selfless as He did. When we see someone in need we help them as He has helped us. We do what we can because He sacrificed so much for us.

And then the end times finally come around, and the judgment is at hand. All the nations are gathered...all the religions of the world and all the atheists and everyone else. And someone who did not trust in Christ as their sacrifice is judged and they are questioned: "Why did you not accept the outstretched gift that Christ offered to you while you had the opportunity? Is it because you did not wish to accept and then be compelled to help others in return?" The accused will stand mute because they will not be able to reply. They know that they are condemned because they did not accept Christ as Savior, and Lord. Then the accused will be convicted and found guilty, and cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.

The only way someone can believe in Christ, and believe that His death will pay the penalty for them and that He is there to give us strength to deal with the sufferings in this life, is to believe that He has been given the authority of God to do these things. If Christ has no authority then His sacrifice has no power and no one is saved.

He has the authority to justify us before God, but also the right to condemn those who rejected him. Even Satan will have to acknowledge that Jesus is Lord at the end times, before Satan is cast into the fire. He's not going to be worshiping Christ, but he will have to admit that Christ is God. He will be compelled to do so...he will not be able to resist in admitting this fact.

And then, once all earthly powers and authorities have been placed under his feet...once he has been shown as the sovereign power over all things...only then will he relinquish this power to God.

I hope that I was able to convey the message adequately.

In Christ,

-Tom
So what does that mean, only through? Well, we believe that his sacrifice was able to appease the lawful requirements of God. The law stated that a blood sacrifice was required to remove sin. The Mosaic practice in the temple foreshadowed Christ's own sacrifice. It was a practice run, only prophesying what was to come in the future.

what if i said not all sins require blood atonement an God prefers obedience over sacrifice

The people deserved the penalty for their sin, and yet it was not them dying, but rather an innocent creature was sacrificed in their place. The people just didn't comprehend it, or perhaps some did but didn't want to acknowledge it. They figured that as long as sacrifices were being made for them that it meant they did not have to take personal responsibility for their own sins. There would always be that offering there to absolve it. I'm not saying that everyone felt this way, but most probably did. I had used an example in another thread where a person may come up to a public restroom and see a "no smoking sign" on the door. It pictures an x-ed out cigarette. So, I see the x-ed out cigarette and think, "Okay, I can't smoke a cigarette in here" so I pull out a pipe and smoke that instead, for technically I'm not violating the law., as the symbol does not show an x-ed out pipe. So then is smoking the pipe a violation? Of course! Because the intent of the symbol is that NO SMOKING is allowed. Some signs even have these words with the symbol, in case some goof tries to bend the rules like I explained above. In the same way, most people did the same thing concerning the Mosaic law; they looked for loopholes and ways to bypass the intention of the law. Again, I'm not going to get into my personal views on the law, so I'm not going to elaborate further on that part.

haha good one , we Jews are very precise, this is why we have a Oral Torah, Rabbis sat an asked "Whats Work" "whats the corner of your head" "what about this an that "

the Torah doesnt exactly say "You shall not look with lust at a woman" but Jesus came an said that, right? the Talmud says one sin 3 ways Thought, Speech, an Action, so then the Torah does say thou shall Not look at a woman in lust

thanks
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Old 07-15-2011, 07:19 AM
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Are you referring to THE Church or organized religion?
All of it. I was "called out" of Babylon.
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Old 07-15-2011, 07:20 AM
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Why?......
As Martin Luther Proved the Catholic Church, Just as all Churches are, is corruptable becuase it is run my mere men.

I'm Lutheran and I don't always accept my church's authority....I was raised in the American Lutheran Church...it wound up part of the Evangelical Lutheran Church and I did not nor do I accept some of their intrepetations of the Bible....since they started to allow gay and lesbian pastors and clergy I found the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church. Their teachings are more in line with what I read from the bible.

While I understand the history of how Constintine chartered the first complete works of the new testament....I understand there are books that were left out. Some becuase of controversey about heir origins and others becuase of church politics.

I try to read all of these books and the 5 books of the Torah that were left out of the OT. Og the missing works I have found I have developed my own opinions (just as inspired by God as any opinion that some pope 1600-1500 years ago might have been inspired)
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Old 07-15-2011, 07:39 AM
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Lots of good stuff in this thread.
A few thoughts occurred to me as I read, especially with some of the analogies.


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I'm close with you there friend, the scriptures are indeed the blueprint.

However, I would say the scriptures are the mechanics, and the Spirit is the dynamics.

The Spirit is the gas that sparks to make the engine (Word) come to life!
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wow cool , BUT you need a driver for that car, or you need a hand to turn that wrench
I agree Standox. God gives us the tools (His Spirit and His Word), but if we never step into the car (in faith) to turn the key in the ignition, we can have a perfectly sound car full of gas that won't go anywhere.

Here's another way to think of it. We are told in the scriptures that Word of God is like a sharp two-edged sword. In Ephesians 6 Paul refers to the sword of the Spirit. Either way, it takes a strong arm of faith to wield that sword. Just like Tom's reference to the Conan analogy.



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What I see here, which you had not highlighted but which I have, are the words "IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST." The apostles had no authority of their own, the power had been delegated as Firebird has said, but it is only IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST. However, the authority still rests with Christ. For without Jesus, there is no authority, and all authority had been entrusted to Jesus until all the enemies of God, all the authorities, have submitted to him. After that time, Jesus will turn that authority over to God.

God has delegated authority to Christ, but he doesn't lose his authority. It's only that those who believe they can have God...and no Christ...will perish, for God has given that power to Christ. If anyone wishes to be saved it must be through Christ. His is the name we call on to be saved, not an apostle or an institution like the Roman Catholic Church. Christ is the authority, until the end times, when he relinquishes all his authority back to the Father. But presently, He is the authority.
This is very true. Another analogy - A police officer has no real "power" of his own to stand in traffic and physically stop a bunch of 2-ton cars coming at him. But his authority, given him by his city and mayor, which is represented by his uniform and badge, allows him the authority to blow his whistle, hold up his hand, and stop traffic.


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Okay I think I get what your saying. My understanding is that God in his nature (omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent) is perfect. Therefore what he speaks has also got to be perfect. Therefore, if scripture is the word of God then that also must be perfect and non-contradictory. It cannot contradict who God is or what he commands.
Well said!
The Word of God is the very thoughts of God expressed in writing!
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Old 07-15-2011, 11:03 AM
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Now, at what point does this Bible-alone thing kick in?
My explanation to Standox was not regarding "Bible-alone"; he asked me a question in regards to my earlier post, and so I clarified it for him (Are you Standox?)

But, you asked a question and so here is my answer to you: I believe that the Holy Spirit is my Counselor; it is not the Roman Catholic church nor any earthly institution.

In Christ,

-Tom
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:09 PM
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So what does that mean, only through? Well, we believe that his sacrifice was able to appease the lawful requirements of God. The law stated that a blood sacrifice was required to remove sin. The Mosaic practice in the temple foreshadowed Christ's own sacrifice. It was a practice run, only prophesying what was to come in the future.

what if i said not all sins require blood atonement an God prefers obedience over sacrifice

The people deserved the penalty for their sin, and yet it was not them dying, but rather an innocent creature was sacrificed in their place. The people just didn't comprehend it, or perhaps some did but didn't want to acknowledge it. They figured that as long as sacrifices were being made for them that it meant they did not have to take personal responsibility for their own sins. There would always be that offering there to absolve it. I'm not saying that everyone felt this way, but most probably did. I had used an example in another thread where a person may come up to a public restroom and see a "no smoking sign" on the door. It pictures an x-ed out cigarette. So, I see the x-ed out cigarette and think, "Okay, I can't smoke a cigarette in here" so I pull out a pipe and smoke that instead, for technically I'm not violating the law., as the symbol does not show an x-ed out pipe. So then is smoking the pipe a violation? Of course! Because the intent of the symbol is that NO SMOKING is allowed. Some signs even have these words with the symbol, in case some goof tries to bend the rules like I explained above. In the same way, most people did the same thing concerning the Mosaic law; they looked for loopholes and ways to bypass the intention of the law. Again, I'm not going to get into my personal views on the law, so I'm not going to elaborate further on that part.

haha good one , we Jews are very precise, this is why we have a Oral Torah, Rabbis sat an asked "Whats Work" "whats the corner of your head" "what about this an that "

the Torah doesnt exactly say "You shall not look with lust at a woman" but Jesus came an said that, right? the Talmud says one sin 3 ways Thought, Speech, an Action, so then the Torah does say thou shall Not look at a woman in lust

thanks
Well, in my example of the "No Smoking" sign, we're supposed to look at the intent as to why that sign was put up there. It's there for a reason, it was not just put there because someone had some free time on their hands. So we see the sign and think to ourselves, "Hm. The sign indicates that no cigarettes may be smoked in here, because the symbol denotes cigarettes. Although I do not have cigarettes I do have this pipe with me instead. So could I smoke this pipe and not violate the prohibition?"

As I said, to avoid this problem most signs will have the actual words "No Smoking" accompanying the symbol. Therefore no one can smoke anything because it's a violation. However, not all "no smoking" signs actually have the words accompanying the symbol. Then why even have a symbol at all if it's not precise? Because a picture is worth a thousand words. They chose a very general symbol to represent smoking. Most people simply understand what the sign means, even if it has no word accompanying the symbol.

In the same way we see a road sign with an arrow pointing to the right and we know it means the road curves right. We don't look at the sign and think it's pointing to something along the side of the road.

The commandments are generalized. And because the people had difficulty in proper interpretation of these generalized laws, Christ had to clarify the laws for them. He meant to show them that it was not the law itself that was important but that it was the INTENT behind those laws which was important. Why did the law even exist in the first place? That is what he wanted people to consider.

Jesus made it quite clear. The law gives generalized rules. While the commandment says to us "Do not murder"...the Holy Spirit will tell us that we should not even be angry, because it is anger that will beget murder, if it is allowed to escalate. Jesus had to clarify that it was not the "law" itself which was important, it was more of why the law existed to begin with.

God desires mercy, not sacrifice. If us people would simply not sin there would be NO NEED for any law. The law had been added not because people were sinless but because people WERE sinning. If you don't sin, then why would the law apply to you, since you would not be breaking it? A law only applies to you if you break it, for if you break it you have to face the consequences for breaking it. So then, if you are keeping the law, what applies to you? Nothing. Law will only apply when you break it.

The sign on the bathroom door says "No Smoking". And I think to myself, "Great, I don't smoke so it's not even referring to me. It's only referring to those people that do smoke and would like to come into this restroom and smoke. So the sign is there to tell them they can't do it. Since I don't smoke anyway, the sign doesn't even apply to me...it only applies to smokers."

Laws have penalties...you cannot have law without a penalty, otherwise what is the point of the law itself? The law defines sin, it does not define righteousness.

So then, we have the natural law passed on to us by Adam, on account of his sin. By this natural law we all have the knowledge to distinguish between good and evil. We know what is good and we know what is evil. But, our sinful nature inclines us to do evil. While we know of good, our tendency is to do evil, because that is our nature.

Therefore, we are "born again" into the kingdom of Christ. Under this new birth, made possible by Christ's sacfice of atonement, he had destroyed the penalty of sin. Therefore, my heart was originally inclined to sin under the natural law, but I have died to the sinful nature and am "born again" into a spiritual rebirth. This new birth means that my sinful nature has been overcome with an inclination for good. I still retain the knowledge of good and evil, but instead of an inclination towards evil the inclination is towards the good.

And the Holy Spirit is my instructor and Counselor, guiding me so that I stay on the path of the good. If I stray from the path, it's because I've chosen to submit myself to the sinful nature. If stay on the path then it's because I've chosen to submit to God. This process is called sanctification. It's progressive. The more I willingly submit to the Spirit's guidance, the easier I find it to abide in Christ. Each victory makes me stronger.

Should I slip and fall into the sinful nature, the Holy Spirit will convict me with the evidence of my transgression: he will use the law to point out my sin. Thus, having no excuse I will have to admit I am a sinner, and as a sinner I have no hope to remove the sin of my own accord. So I turn away from my sinful nature. This is called repentance. And having turned back, I ask humbly and genuinely for Christ to forgive my transgression. He forgives me and restores me to my justified status, the same status I had when I first believed. And then I submit myself to His direction once again. The more I simply turn myself over to His direction the less often I will stray. Over time it becomes a natural thing for me to abide in Him. This is progressive sanctification (becoming holy).

Has the law been abolished through all of this? Nope. It's still there for the Spirit to stick in my face until I acknowledge that I've sinned. It's there as evidence of my crime. But once knowing that I have strayed I can humble myself in repentance and seek God once again and be restored as I stated earlier, so in that regard it is not abolished but it no longer applies to me. If I do not commit a sin, then how can it apply to me, just like how the "No Smoking" sign would not apply?

I'm not saying that I am exempt from sin, but I did show you how we are restored should we sin. Every time we sin we take a step away from God, every time we submit to him we draw closer. As we draw closer it becomes easier and easier with each progressive step.

Are my view correct? Some will agree, others will disagree. But they are my views. If some don't like them they need not accept them; I'm not forcing my opinions on anyone. This is just the way that I personally view grace and the law. Others have their own opinions to which they are entitled. I'm only clarifying what it is that I personally believe.

In Christ,

-Tom
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:09 PM
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Yes, Standox, I understand that it's a difficult concept for our human minds to grasp. The only reason why I grasp it is because of my faith that it's true. I cannot offer any proof other than what I read in the testimony of the Scriptures. So the Scriptures give evidence, but they were authored by Christ...and so I believe the Scriptures because of my faith in Christ as possessing the truth and the ability to let me understand the truth.

Yeah, I know...I'm not doing a very good job explaining myself, and I apologize.

To be blunt, if anyone does not accept Jesus Christ in the same way they accept God, then they are not of "true" Israel. The Father testifies that Christ is his Son. Others testified that Christ was the Son of God. Demons testified. There is Biblical evidence that He is who He claims to be. Without discussing details of the new covenant, because they may offend some, I'll just stick to what most already profess agreement: the law does not save, only through Christ can we be saved.

So what does that mean, only through? Well, we believe that his sacrifice was able to appease the lawful requirements of God. The law stated that a blood sacrifice was required to remove sin. The Mosaic practice in the temple foreshadowed Christ's own sacrifice. It was a practice run, only prophesying what was to come in the future.

The people deserved the penalty for their sin, and yet it was not them dying, but rather an innocent creature was sacrificed in their place. The people just didn't comprehend it, or perhaps some did but didn't want to acknowledge it. They figured that as long as sacrifices were being made for them that it meant they did not have to take personal responsibility for their own sins. There would always be that offering there to absolve it. I'm not saying that everyone felt this way, but most probably did. I had used an example in another thread where a person may come up to a public restroom and see a "no smoking sign" on the door. It pictures an x-ed out cigarette. So, I see the x-ed out cigarette and think, "Okay, I can't smoke a cigarette in here" so I pull out a pipe and smoke that instead, for technically I'm not violating the law., as the symbol does not show an x-ed out pipe. So then is smoking the pipe a violation? Of course! Because the intent of the symbol is that NO SMOKING is allowed. Some signs even have these words with the symbol, in case some goof tries to bend the rules like I explained above. In the same way, most people did the same thing concerning the Mosaic law; they looked for loopholes and ways to bypass the intention of the law. Again, I'm not going to get into my personal views on the law, so I'm not going to elaborate further on that part.

The sacrifices under the old covenant did not work because the people were not remaining faithful to God 24/7 (just like no one today). God says he desires mercy, not sacrifice. But the people preferred to practice animal sacrifice because it gave them a scapegoat for their transgressions. After all, if they weren't the one that was going to die for their sins then what did it matter to them if an animal were killed in their place? They lacked personal responsibility. God had hoped that they would stop sinning by turning to Him in faith for direction, rather than trusting in just another yearly sacrifice. If they would simply have been faithful then the sacrifices would have stopped. So then this is why Christ entered the picture (at least in part). He came to save the unrighteous (which pretty much meant everyone, because all of us are sinners and therefore all of us are unrighteous).

If we believe that He is the Son of God, and that if we place our trust in Him that His sacrifice wiped away all of our sins, then we are justified before God. God gave his authority to Christ so that we can trust in Christ. We trust in Christ because we believe that he is God incarnate.

Isaiah speaks how no one was righteous so God worked his own righteousness. This meant that God provided a way out for the people. The law demands a death penalty, so if we believe that Christ's death paid that penalty then we are justified. Christ is the High Priest in the order of Melchizidek, and he sacrificed himself. He laid down his life for us, to save us. Think of it in broad terms if you must...like there is a building burning down and you're injured and cannot move. Instead of him leaving you there to burn, he comes in stretches his arms out for you...and you grab hold and he carries you out. He could have let you burn but he reached out for you and you accepted his gift. But then he goes back in the burning building for someone else and disappears. Then the whole roof crashes down and he's gone. He sacrificed himself for you and countless others.

So God have him the authority, the power, to forgive sins. Most will attest to this. And then we honor Christ's memory by living as selfless as He did. When we see someone in need we help them as He has helped us. We do what we can because He sacrificed so much for us.

And then the end times finally come around, and the judgment is at hand. All the nations are gathered...all the religions of the world and all the atheists and everyone else. And someone who did not trust in Christ as their sacrifice is judged and they are questioned: "Why did you not accept the outstretched gift that Christ offered to you while you had the opportunity? Is it because you did not wish to accept and then be compelled to help others in return?" The accused will stand mute because they will not be able to reply. They know that they are condemned because they did not accept Christ as Savior, and Lord. Then the accused will be convicted and found guilty, and cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.

The only way someone can believe in Christ, and believe that His death will pay the penalty for them and that He is there to give us strength to deal with the sufferings in this life, is to believe that He has been given the authority of God to do these things. If Christ has no authority then His sacrifice has no power and no one is saved.

He has the authority to justify us before God, but also the right to condemn those who rejected him. Even Satan will have to acknowledge that Jesus is Lord at the end times, before Satan is cast into the fire. He's not going to be worshiping Christ, but he will have to admit that Christ is God. He will be compelled to do so...he will not be able to resist in admitting this fact.

And then, once all earthly powers and authorities have been placed under his feet...once he has been shown as the sovereign power over all things...only then will he relinquish this power to God.

I hope that I was able to convey the message adequately.

In Christ,

-Tom
Now, at what point does this Bible-alone thing kick in?
My explanation to Standox was not regarding "Bible-alone"; he asked me a question in regards to my earlier post, and so I clarified it for him
I understand your intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by embrachu
(Are you Standox?)
I haven't busted you for hijacking my thread, so don't get smart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by embrachu
But, you asked a question and so here is my answer to you: I believe that the Holy Spirit is my Counselor; it is not the Roman Catholic church nor any earthly institution.

In Christ,

-Tom
That's fine and dandy. Now back to the point of my question to you. What is striking about your post to Standox, is that, for a Bible-alone person, you sure are long on extra-Biblical commentary. If Scripture is a stand-alone authority, anyone should be able to read it without your fallible assistance.
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:39 PM
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The Authority of the Bible (1 of 2) - The Trumpet Daily


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Old 07-15-2011, 02:27 PM
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As Martin Luther Proved the Catholic Church, Just as all Churches are, is corruptable becuase it is run my mere men.
If Luther was a mere man and therefore corruptible, why should a person give his consideration a second glance?

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Originally Posted by Lone Star View Post
I'm Lutheran and I don't always accept my church's authority....I was raised in the American Lutheran Church...it wound up part of the Evangelical Lutheran Church and I did not nor do I accept some of their intrepetations of the Bible....since they started to allow gay and lesbian pastors and clergy I found the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church. Their teachings are more in line with what I read from the bible.
So what? You simply continue Luther's dissension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Star
While I understand the history of how Constintine chartered the first complete works of the new testament
Help me out here. Please point to those primary and secondary sources that support your statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Star
....I understand there are books that were left out. Some becuase of controversey about heir origins and others becuase of church politics.

I try to read all of these books and the 5 books of the Torah that were left out of the OT. Og the missing works I have found I have developed my own opinions (just as inspired by God as any opinion that some pope 1600-1500 years ago might have been inspired)
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Old 07-15-2011, 02:27 PM
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Firebird,

When you say Bible-alone are you meaning that as truly only the Bible or as in folks who give the Bible the final authority?

I hope that question makes sense. As an example I listen to many speakers and read many many other books besides the Bible, but in the end I believe I must rely on what I can relate to as Biblical (as in, be a Berean). Another example would be that for me, Jesus is my Rabbi, my Preacher, my Teacher, etc.

With all of that said, would you say by my example I'm Bible-alone?

Maybe another way to ask is what is not Bible-alone? Is this getting into the Catholic view and if so would you say it is below, lateral to, or even possibly above Biblical authority according to you or the Catholic view?

Or, if I'm way off please let me know what you mean with that term.

Thanks
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Old 07-15-2011, 02:55 PM
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Firebird,

When you say Bible-alone are you meaning that as truly only the Bible or as in folks who give the Bible the final authority?
Sola Scriptura (Bible-alone) is a doctrine held in one form or other by various Protestants, who generally claim that the Bible is the sole rule of faith for the Christian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua79109 View Post
I hope that question makes sense. As an example I listen to many speakers and read many many other books besides the Bible, but in the end I believe I must rely on what I can relate to as Biblical (as in, be a Berean). Another example would be that for me, Jesus is my Rabbi, my Preacher, my Teacher, etc.

With all of that said, would you say by my example I'm Bible-alone?
Perhaps. Regarding the Bereans, check out this article:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshua79109 View Post
Maybe another way to ask is what is not Bible-alone? Is this getting into the Catholic view and if so would you say it is below, lateral to, or even possibly above Biblical authority according to you or the Catholic view?

Or, if I'm way off please let me know what you mean with that term.

Thanks
This section from the Catechism of the Catholic Church should go toward addressing your question:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm
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Old 07-15-2011, 03:24 PM
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Nobody exists today that knows exactly what the Bible says, whether it has been translated properly, whether the Catholic church changed anything, if any original texts were left out or eliminated, or whether it is the true word of God or just what man says the word of God is! This is why I have such a hard time living my life by what somebody else determines what the Bible really means!
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Old 07-15-2011, 03:31 PM
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I understand your intent.

I haven't busted you for hijacking my thread, so don't get smart.

That's fine and dandy. Now back to the point of my question to you. What is striking about your post to Standox, is that, for a Bible-alone person, you sure are long on extra-Biblical commentary. If Scripture is a stand-alone authority, anyone should be able to read it without your fallible assistance.
Your OP contends that there are some who place their belief in the authority of the Scriptures themselves, while it is your belief that the RCC is the authority of those same Scriptures. Call it hijacking if you wish, but the fact is that my commentary was refuting both claims. And because my refutation was regarding both claims (and one of those happens to be that of the RCC as authority), then my commentary was not as off-topic as you might first believe...hence, no hijacking has occurred.

Simply because I did not answer the question in a manner you predicted does not mean the question was not addressed. This thread is about establishing an authority, and therefore my commentary was relevant. Standox asked me a question about that relevant commentary, I answered. Because I had not established a running dialogue with you does not prohibit me from doing so with others within the thread, since the establishment of authority was the baseline premise.

In Christ,

-Tom
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