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Old 08-20-2013, 12:56 AM
gondwana gondwana is offline
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Okay then, i just needed a little clarity as to who you dissent with.
Its not about me and other people, its about all of us getting a better understanding of the Scriptures, no one will fully understand everything in Scriptures, there is no earthly authority on all things of the Bible, we do the best we can...we can get Berean and check the Scriptures as we're asked to do to ascertain if something we're told is so...

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I, myself was slow to choose, and found the realization of God through the Catholic Church. It hit me like a bolt of lightening, and I'm glad for it...
Well if it hit like lightening it must be correct yeah? Seriously, if you're seeking out Christ and feel you've found a solid path to a better relationship with Him I'm actually glad for you. The RCC runs many bright red flags up the flag pole...agree to disagree is fine with me, but for me at least, the Scriptural barriers the RCC has concerns me and wards me away from their "church".


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Unfortunately, this is the sentiment of alot of people in the world. Why else would there be tens of thousands (the number is often misunderstood, misused, or unknown) of Protestant churches?
Catholic/Protestant...different kinds of same same?? Where do both sit in relation to replacement theology? Israel and the church appear to be 2 separate entities with 2 separate relationships to God and both have 2 separate roles and futures. If I were to agree with most mainline denominations these days, God has finished with Israel when Scripture clears points out He has not. His Word will not change one jot nor one tittle...His Word included a number of covenants which I see as not being over...it seems despite Israel's rejection over the past, God is still looking at them as His Chosen people.

Someones no going to ask do I take all Scripture "literally"...my answer is I take all Scripture SERIOUSLY and therefore if God says Israel are His chosen people forever, I don't think He lies nor goes back on His word. If He has gone back on His Word, then the covenant with the new people is on shakey ground and not definite.

I'd like to here where others are on Replacement Theology...

For me, its a dog that can't hunt, it has no legs, it is dead in the water
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:24 PM
CombsForce CombsForce is offline
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Originally Posted by gondwana View Post
Its not about me and other people, its about all of us getting a better understanding of the Scriptures, no one will fully understand everything in Scriptures, there is no earthly authority on all things of the Bible, we do the best we can...we can get Berean and check the Scriptures as we're asked to do to ascertain if something we're told is so...
I agree completely.


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Originally Posted by gondwana View Post
Well if it hit like lightening it must be correct yeah? Seriously, if you're seeking out Christ and feel you've found a solid path to a better relationship with Him I'm actually glad for you. The RCC runs many bright red flags up the flag pole...agree to disagree is fine with me, but for me at least, the Scriptural barriers the RCC has concerns me and wards me away from their "church".
I have and so have many. My goal is not to distort the message of Christ which was intended to bring us together. To us Catholics, Christ was God manifested in human form. That is fine if you find barriers to the Christian religion (Catholic Church) or Word, I did the same myself. I hope you can come to a better understanding of it one day.


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Originally Posted by gondwana View Post
Catholic/Protestant...different kinds of same same?? Where do both sit in relation to replacement theology? Israel and the church appear to be 2 separate entities with 2 separate relationships to God and both have 2 separate roles and futures. If I were to agree with most mainline denominations these days, God has finished with Israel when Scripture clears points out He has not. His Word will not change one jot nor one tittle...His Word included a number of covenants which I see as not being over...it seems despite Israel's rejection over the past, God is still looking at them as His Chosen people.
And some Christian denominations would agree with you. Others simply acknowledge Israel as the holy land due to it's association with the transpirations of Christ. The holy land is a precarious place for Christians these days however. I happen to think despite our differences in location, belief, or association that we are all His chosen people.


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I'd like to here where others are on Replacement Theology...

For me, its a dog that can't hunt, it has no legs, it is dead in the water
If you're speaking about Christianity here, then I'd have to compare it to a dog that hasn't learned to hunt efficiently yet. If you speak of replacement Theology in general, I agree with your comparison.

I think we have more in common than we'd like to admit. It's been good chatting with you of these things which we hold so dearly.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:29 PM
CombsForce CombsForce is offline
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To those who read and study the Scriptures, not those who bow, tug the forelock & follow blindly the edicts of elected committees from a multinational corporation...or even a small cult.

Check the Scriptures daily to see if it so...if you're going to follow others blindly
I have to assume that you are on to believe in Sola Scriptura?

The only problem with that is what you, yourself are doing, and what many religions you denounce do; interpreting subjectively.

I wouldn't assume that I, or any other Christian for that matter, follow our faith blindly. Rather, we follow the teachings of the authority handed down by God through Christ and His fellow men.
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:47 PM
gondwana gondwana is offline
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I have and so have many. My goal is not to distort the message of Christ which was intended to bring us together. To us Catholics, Christ was God manifested in human form. That is fine if you find barriers to the Christian religion (Catholic Church) or Word, I did the same myself. I hope you can come to a better understanding of it one day..
Thanks, I don't have a problem with the Word of God, aka the Bible, the problem that concerns me is various non Scriptural doctrines, including a good deal of RCC ones. I'm all for following Christ, not so much man made doctrines that either fly in the face of Scripture or try to trump Scripture. I'm all for the checking the Scriptures daily to see if it's so.

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And some Christian denominations would agree with you. Others simply acknowledge Israel as the holy land due to it's association with the transpirations of Christ. The holy land is a precarious place for Christians these days however. I happen to think despite our differences in location, belief, or association that we are all His chosen people.
Ahh Holy Land is fine, Chosen people is what I would point to being displaced...There is yet to be proof God the Father has rejected the people of Israel and Judah. Quite the opposite. Scripture points to the Jews still being the Chosen people and those of us Gentiles are grafted in thanks to Christ. I see no need to dispatch Israel and Judah's folk to hell. I take the scriptures seriously and see no need to allegorise the Word to throw out them and replace them with "Christians"
That flies in the face of the Word and is the basis for so much anti-Semitism and anti-Jewish sentiment...they have survived so much persecution. Israel and the Church are 2 different groups with two different futures under God. One does not replace the other.

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Originally Posted by CombsForce View Post
If you're speaking about Christianity here, then I'd have to compare it to a dog that hasn't learned to hunt efficiently yet. If you speak of replacement Theology in general, I agree with your comparison.

I think we have more in common than we'd like to admit. It's been good chatting with you of these things which we hold so dearly.
I'm for and with the Scriptures...if we have that in common I'm good with that, no drama my end :-)
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:31 AM
gondwana gondwana is offline
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I have to assume that you are on to believe in Sola Scriptura?
No offence intended, but whenever anyone goes a bit Berean the old Sola Scriptura chestnut comes up. From memory there were 4 other Solas as well but in any case, I think Scripture is pretty clear, we listen to church elders then check the Scriptures daily to see if it is so...to keep them honest, to keep them from straying also. They lead the worship, they do become kings of the little kingdom. Why anyone has to bow to a church elder, kiss their ring or whatever I'll never know...it sure isn't Scripturally based. Not is unmarried priest. Scripture has some clear comments on that too, but some "churches" will not allow their priests to marry. Not Scriptural.
No monks, nuns, cardinals, popes you name it mentioned in Scripture and I'd need a little more than disputable passed down authority that allows so called 'subsequent' leaders were not to deviate the Word, transgress it. They have and there are number of denominations which have done so, many of Paul's writings were to churches that needed pulling up and correcting.

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The only problem with that is what you, yourself are doing, and what many religions you denounce do; interpreting subjectively.
I don't subscribe to Sola Scriptura as some people twist it nor handed down decrees from upon high (but men)...All should check the Scripture daily to see if a thing is so, using Scripture for correction, reproof etc. If you blindly follow the handed down decrees of a corporation style structure franchise, there is only downward travel of input, not upward feedback. Can you stand against a priest and say "That is wrong" if he is wrong, or do you have to report him to his supervisor, and it gets lost in the bureaucracy? The Church of Corinth was made of of Corinthians from Corinth. The RCC is looking like it was modelled off the Roman Empire model of structure, conquer, co-opted and all roads (carrying the gold) lead to Rome, traffic the other way includes Scriptural decrees... odd, very odd. Corinth didn't have a Colonial Expansion policy...

Real odd.
I don't solely on my own decide what Scripture is meant to be, I listen to clerics and commentators and use the Scriptures to check if a thing is so. There are many false teachers out there amongst many different unrelated, so called Christian denominations.


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Originally Posted by CombsForce View Post

I wouldn't assume that I, or any other Christian for that matter, follow our faith blindly. Rather, we follow the teachings of the authority handed down by God through Christ and His fellow men.
Don't follow the faith blindly, but follow the teachings other men have already decided upon for you. What happens were they to do wrong & you found the Scripture trumping them quite convincingly, whats your appeals process in your corporation? Go to a supervisor, priest, bishop, cardinal, pope?

What if I see something that is clearly church doctrine that is clearly at odds with Scripture? The Bible says search the Scriptures daily to see if it is so, that all Scripture is profitable for correction etc...how do I correct the church who has got something badly wrong?

At some point we don't judge people to hell, but we make a discerning judgement to see if a franchise or church is a synagogue of satan. It can be, some will be yet they exist quite well. This growing trend that appears almost unfetted, unchallenged is set out in prophecy. And even the elite can be tricked and deceived and they will.

what happens when the elite of a particular denomination are tricked and deceived...what do the followers do? Or onlookers outside do?

Leave it to the alleged "authority" debatably handed down? But if they'
re tricked and deceived...what then?

Ahh infallibility is a lovely Teflon jacket. Funny thing with Teflon though, not much sticks, but the wearer will still have to wipe traces of foulness off and they're still not bullet proof. Look the part, but still doesn't uncreate the foul fault/s.

Yes, Sola Scriptura...lovely concept which taken out to some extremes becomes a deflector shield for some denominations that rely upon a supreme leader in charge of a chosen inner circle who operate largely in secret, behind closed doors.

Keep the clergy honest, it is not them and us, its all of us. No one is higher on the spiritual food chain than another. elevated tiers of opulence and power are not solutions to twisted Sola Scriptura which some of us don't exactly go by anyway.

Whats the appeals system? How do you call out clergy who are transgressing Scripture?

Easy...you don't. You follow blindly or you are an infidel without any chance of salvation. Outside the "church" there is no salvation...nor is there any point in having Jews, God's once and forever chosen people. No Jew will ever have a place in the RCC, even if they wanted to be there. Amazing the zeal in which the various churches have keenly de-Jew-ed Jesus
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:34 PM
CombsForce CombsForce is offline
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No offence intended, but whenever anyone goes a bit Berean the old Sola Scriptura chestnut comes up. From memory there were 4 other Solas as well but in any case, I think Scripture is pretty clear, we listen to church elders then check the Scriptures daily to see if it is so...to keep them honest, to keep them from straying also. They lead the worship, they do become kings of the little kingdom. Why anyone has to bow to a church elder, kiss their ring or whatever I'll never know...it sure isn't Scripturally based. Not is unmarried priest. Scripture has some clear comments on that too, but some "churches" will not allow their priests to marry. Not Scriptural.
No monks, nuns, cardinals, popes you name it mentioned in Scripture and I'd need a little more than disputable passed down authority that allows so called 'subsequent' leaders were not to deviate the Word, transgress it. They have and there are number of denominations which have done so, many of Paul's writings were to churches that needed pulling up and correcting.


I don't subscribe to Sola Scriptura as some people twist it nor handed down decrees from upon high (but men)...All should check the Scripture daily to see if a thing is so, using Scripture for correction, reproof etc. If you blindly follow the handed down decrees of a corporation style structure franchise, there is only downward travel of input, not upward feedback. Can you stand against a priest and say "That is wrong" if he is wrong, or do you have to report him to his supervisor, and it gets lost in the bureaucracy? The Church of Corinth was made of of Corinthians from Corinth. The RCC is looking like it was modelled off the Roman Empire model of structure, conquer, co-opted and all roads (carrying the gold) lead to Rome, traffic the other way includes Scriptural decrees... odd, very odd. Corinth didn't have a Colonial Expansion policy...

Real odd.
I don't solely on my own decide what Scripture is meant to be, I listen to clerics and commentators and use the Scriptures to check if a thing is so. There are many false teachers out there amongst many different unrelated, so called Christian denominations.




Don't follow the faith blindly, but follow the teachings other men have already decided upon for you. What happens were they to do wrong & you found the Scripture trumping them quite convincingly, whats your appeals process in your corporation? Go to a supervisor, priest, bishop, cardinal, pope?

What if I see something that is clearly church doctrine that is clearly at odds with Scripture? The Bible says search the Scriptures daily to see if it is so, that all Scripture is profitable for correction etc...how do I correct the church who has got something badly wrong?

At some point we don't judge people to hell, but we make a discerning judgement to see if a franchise or church is a synagogue of satan. It can be, some will be yet they exist quite well. This growing trend that appears almost unfetted, unchallenged is set out in prophecy. And even the elite can be tricked and deceived and they will.

what happens when the elite of a particular denomination are tricked and deceived...what do the followers do? Or onlookers outside do?

Leave it to the alleged "authority" debatably handed down? But if they'
re tricked and deceived...what then?

Ahh infallibility is a lovely Teflon jacket. Funny thing with Teflon though, not much sticks, but the wearer will still have to wipe traces of foulness off and they're still not bullet proof. Look the part, but still doesn't uncreate the foul fault/s.

Yes, Sola Scriptura...lovely concept which taken out to some extremes becomes a deflector shield for some denominations that rely upon a supreme leader in charge of a chosen inner circle who operate largely in secret, behind closed doors.

Keep the clergy honest, it is not them and us, its all of us. No one is higher on the spiritual food chain than another. elevated tiers of opulence and power are not solutions to twisted Sola Scriptura which some of us don't exactly go by anyway.

Whats the appeals system? How do you call out clergy who are transgressing Scripture?

Easy...you don't. You follow blindly or you are an infidel without any chance of salvation. Outside the "church" there is no salvation...nor is there any point in having Jews, God's once and forever chosen people. No Jew will ever have a place in the RCC, even if they wanted to be there. Amazing the zeal in which the various churches have keenly de-Jew-ed Jesus
It seems that the fundamental disagreement between us is that one follows the teachings of Christ, and the other doesn't. One thing we do agree upon is that the Bible is the Word. Now, to what degree do we believe this? I gather that you do believe in the Word, and that you won't interpret it for yourself but, rather, use it as an instrument for checks and balances.

Christ was a Jew, I don't dispute that. But I acknowledge that he was also God in human form, and that His legacy is Christianity. The first Christians became the "Univeral" church which, in todays terms, is the Catholic Church. We trace our lineage to it's beginnings, and the beginning for the Catholic Church is Christ. We can dispute our own interpretations of the Word all we like. We can argue about the inconsistencies of Sola Scriptura or the Dogma of a particular church, but the fundamental disagreement remains the same. I know people don't like this answer most of the time, but faith in Christ (God) through Christianity (Catholicism) is just that. Faith, or, what you believe.

Christianity is a belief system. It requires a certain amount of faith and obedience. Blindness to it's flaws, in the sense that you use it, is an arguable and misleading charge. The authority I speak of which is handed down to man by God is written in the Word:

www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html

www.scripturecatholic.com/confession.html

www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html

www.scripturecatholic.com/confirmation.html

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/div...emarriage.html

www.scripturecatholic.com/the_priesthood.html

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/ano..._the_sick.html

Read those if you'd like.

There is no disagreement that man is fallible by our very nature. That much is certain.

God is not fallible. That much is also certain.

The Roman Catholic Church does not believe it is in the interest of it's members to condemn others to hell. It also does not condemn all people outside of it's influence to hell merely due to a difference in association:

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestio...-its-teachings
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:35 PM
CombsForce CombsForce is offline
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Thanks, I don't have a problem with the Word of God, aka the Bible, the problem that concerns me is various non Scriptural doctrines, including a good deal of RCC ones. I'm all for following Christ, not so much man made doctrines that either fly in the face of Scripture or try to trump Scripture. I'm all for the checking the Scriptures daily to see if it's so.


Ahh Holy Land is fine, Chosen people is what I would point to being displaced...There is yet to be proof God the Father has rejected the people of Israel and Judah. Quite the opposite. Scripture points to the Jews still being the Chosen people and those of us Gentiles are grafted in thanks to Christ. I see no need to dispatch Israel and Judah's folk to hell. I take the scriptures seriously and see no need to allegorise the Word to throw out them and replace them with "Christians"
That flies in the face of the Word and is the basis for so much anti-Semitism and anti-Jewish sentiment...they have survived so much persecution. Israel and the Church are 2 different groups with two different futures under God. One does not replace the other.


I'm for and with the Scriptures...if we have that in common I'm good with that, no drama my end :-)
No drama here either.
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