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Old 11-13-2019, 09:46 AM
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1) I own some "toy" guns, I love shooting my 22's in the backyard. They don't annoy the neighbors and they are inexpensive to shoot.

2) I completely believe that 22's and other pistol caliber weapons are NOT capable weapons when it comes to defense of country. You don't see any fighters using "toys". The smallest of small arms used in combat would be the 223/5.56 used by Americans. The rest of the world uses 7.62 caliber minimum.

3) Neither 223/5.56 nor any of the 7.62 offerings are powerful enough to overcome modern defensive equipment. They cannot quickly or effectively stop a determined entity driving a hardened hummer or MRAP. EDIT: Yes a lucky small arms shot can take out motive equipment. Good luck getting that shot when it's coming for YOU.

4) I truly believe that government is slowly and surely preventing the ownership of capable arms.
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:22 AM
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The Israelis and a few others have used .22lr to good effect for some things.

Not that I would want one as a primary arm, but they do have their uses.

Its not just one tool that gets it done, I think its choosing the right one for the job, and having the skills to know when and where to use it, and the will to use it, thats more important.

The government hasnt really restricted anything. They havent always made it easy, but in most states, you still can own pretty much anything you want, if you have the money.

Even if you could walk in and buy anything you want, doesnt really mean anything. Possession is just one small part of things. The real work, and threat is in everything else.
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
1) I own some "toy" guns, I love shooting my 22's in the backyard. They don't annoy the neighbors and they are inexpensive to shoot.



2) I completely believe that 22's and other pistol caliber weapons are NOT capable weapons when it comes to defense of country. You don't see any fighters using "toys". The smallest of small arms used in combat would be the 223/5.56 used by Americans. The rest of the world uses 7.62 caliber minimum.



3) Neither 223/5.56 nor any of the 7.62 offerings are powerful enough to overcome modern defensive equipment. They cannot stop a determined entity driving a hummer or MRAP.



4) I truly believe that government is slowly and surely preventing the ownership of capable arms.
They are certainly trying to that is for sure. That is why CA has banned the 50bmg even though it hasnt been used in a crime. The only answer is non compliance.

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Old 11-13-2019, 10:30 AM
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The rest of the world uses 7.62 caliber minimum.
Not quite. The “Russians” went to 5.45X39 decades ago.
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:36 AM
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Not quite. The “Russians” went to 5.45X39 decades ago.
Israel and many NATO countries use the 5.56 in fact.

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Old 11-13-2019, 12:13 PM
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Capable?

Or "ideal"?

My 10/22 is capable for defense use, not ideal.
The AR is capable for defense, but not ideal.
I can choose situations where one is better than the other.

The chances of having to deal with an armored hummer or MRAP? Really?
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Old 11-13-2019, 12:38 PM
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The government hasnt really restricted anything. They havent always made it easy, but in most states, you still can own pretty much anything you want, if you have the money.
State governments have most certainly restricted capable arms. CT, CA, MD, DC prevent the ownership of 50 caliber rifles.

A large number of states prevent ownership of machine guns despite federal approval. The same goes for silencers.
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Old 11-13-2019, 12:59 PM
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I understand there are a few states that have "some" restrictions, but the majority of the country doesnt.

States are "supposed" to have more power than the feds, and you have to assume that if they have those restrictions, the people voted for them, and allow them to be in place.

Not that those restrictions arent a violation of peoples rights, thats not in dispute, and why the feds dont step in/up there is another issue, but for the most part, barring some sort of across the board ban on things, you can still own pretty much anything you want, in "most" places.

Maybe if more people actually knew what the laws actually are (and when it comes to firearms, from a lot of the responses you get, its pretty obvious, and lot of people are clueless), and were a bit more proactive, and actively and aggressively questioned everything, things would be a little different, but hey, beer and football seem to have more sway and importance than rights, so, it is what it is.
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Old 11-13-2019, 01:09 PM
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Most 50 bmg rifles are legal in CT.
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Old 11-13-2019, 01:54 PM
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Israel and many NATO countries use the 5.56 in fact.

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Old 11-13-2019, 02:05 PM
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Who cares? It is still their main infantry rifle, just like it is ours.

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Old 11-13-2019, 02:10 PM
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Who cares? It is still their main infantry rifle, just like it is ours.

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The point bein that the tactics of every military in the world is to recognize that the 556 is inadequate as a stand alone.

Almost always it's pared with heavier vehicle mounted, and when we went on foot we brought 240's.


The OP recognized the fact in #3, you countered, I did again.

He's wrong though. LAV'S, helps and others can be stopped by 7.62x51 if you know where to hit.
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Old 11-13-2019, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
2) I completely believe that 22's and other pistol caliber weapons are NOT capable weapons when it comes to defense of country. You don't see any fighters using "toys". The smallest of small arms used in combat would be the 223/5.56 used by Americans. The rest of the world uses 7.62 caliber minimum.
Depends on application and context. Defeating body armor and some barriers is heavily dependent on velocity, as is ballistic performance over greater distances, which pistols just can't deliver. But with the improvements made to ammo, and especially with pistol caliber carbines, "anti-personnel" use is still well within the capabilities of those calibers.

Meanwhile, there are plenty of rifle calibers that would be very capable for combat uses, if the rifles themselves were modernized, or new designs put into service to make the most of the ammo choices.
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Old 11-13-2019, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
1) They cannot stop a determined entity driving a hummer or MRAP.
While a 22lr won’t stop an MRA, a 22lr rifle with a suppressor, subsonic ammo and night scope will place a round in the brain housing group of an adversary when he sits around the camp fire. If he survives, he’ll be a spaz for his remaining years.
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Old 11-13-2019, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
1)
The rest of the world uses 7.62 caliber minimum.
Well...that's completely and totally incorrect.
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Old 11-13-2019, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
The point bein.....
NO. The POINT was, he said, "The rest of the world uses 7.62 caliber minimum."

Which is baloney.

Nothing else he said modifies or limits that statement, and what YOU add to it as an extension doesn't change his statement either.

The reality is MANY military units all over the world use cartridges that are under the 7.62 caliber "minimum".

In fact between NATO, US foreign sales and the Russians, chances are good that 60-75% of the world's regular military uses general issue infantry weapons that are below 7.62 callber.
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Old 11-13-2019, 04:58 PM
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Oh well, more people die slow internet deaths in online caliber wars.

Most effective is to burn stuff and blow things up. Direct confrontation with a force that has air superiority typically ends badly.
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Old 11-13-2019, 05:37 PM
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I read that during the Vietnam conflict only one NK regular or VC casualty was recorded for every 50,000 rounds of 5.56 Nato fired, and then said casualty was probably due to something other than a 5.56 round.
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Old 11-13-2019, 05:56 PM
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As I recall back in the Stone Age Winchester made 357 ammo that was intended to defeat light auto armour and body armour. The projectile was conical with a subcaliber tungsten rod.

And there is still black tip 7.62 out there they may be loose projectiles but they are available.

It seems that it isn’t the caliber of the weapon, but the composition of the projectiles. I personally don’t want a pile of DU sitting around my place.
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Old 11-13-2019, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pol View Post
I read that during the Vietnam conflict only one NK regular or VC casualty was recorded for every 50,000 rounds of 5.56 Nato fired, and then said casualty was probably due to something other than a 5.56 round.
I read an article back in the 80's that said it was more like 2500rnds per kill if you restrict it to just an infantry soldier. There were a lot of other things they compounded into some of the other studies

If you consider the fact there was a lot of undisciplined personnel and lots of cover fire directed, it kind makes better sense.




5.56 and 7.62 are more for soft targets, you need heavier firepower for heavier targets. The enemy won't necessarily be walking towards you unprotected the "hard" targets will be protecting them.

The lowly ole 7.62 round just doesn't compare to a 50BMG or a 20mm or 30mm
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