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1st Time Shooting w/ Iron Sights at 300 & 400 yds rjinga Military Weapons Forum 92 07-29-2017 02:55 PM

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Old 08-19-2017, 06:42 AM
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Default Four different brands of ammo at 200, 300, and 600 yds using a PTR 91 and iron sights



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The rifle:

With an HK 1200 meter rear sight:

All of the shooting was done off of a table with a rest.

The ammunition:

Malaysian surplus

German surplus

Federal Premium Gold Medal Match and PPU Match

At 200 yds the X-Ring is 3”, the 10 Ring is 7”, the 9 Ring is 13”, and the 8 Ring is 19”.
1st with a score of 101.1 and two X-Rings was the Federal:


2nd with a score of 97.8 and one X-Ring was the German:


The Malaysian came in 3rd with a score of 96.8 and one X-Ring:

And, the PPU Match was last with score of 96.2:


The Ring diameters at 300 yds are the same as the diameters at 200 yds, with the 7 Ring being 25” and the 6 Ring is 31 “.
1st was the Federal again with a score of 93.5 and two X-Rings:

Close-up:


The Malaysian moved to 2nd with a score of 92.9 and one X-Ring:


The PPU was 3rd at 300 yds with a score of 91.5:


And, the German came in last with a score of 90.4:


Next was my very first time ever shooting at 600 yds. At that distance the X-Ring is 6”, the 10 Ring is 12”, the 9 Ring is 18”, the 8 Ring is 24”, the 7 Ring is 36”, the 6 Ring is 48”, and the 5 Ring is 60".



I shot two strings of 10 rounds of each brand of ammunition, starting with the Malaysian ammo. It seemed to be shooting high, and ended up in 3rd place on the first string with a score of 72.7:


Next was the German surplus, and even though my first shot didn’t register on the target at all (it seemed to be shooting high also), the ammo still came in 2nd in the first string with a score of 78:


The PPU Match ammo was next and it came in 1st in the first string with a score of 86.6 with one X-Ring:

It didn’t seem to have the problem with bullet rise like the Malaysian and German ammunitions did.

I shot the Federal last in the first string at 600 yds and that’s where it ended up. I only got eight of ten shots in the scoring area (apparently) for a score of 67.2:


I started with the Malaysian surplus again for the second string at 600 yds. Once again I apparently had one round outside of the scoring area, so that dropped the ammunition to 4th with a score of 74.1:


Next was the German surplus and it registered its only 1st place of the day with a score of 83.4:


The PPU Match ammo was third in the rotation again, but dropped to 2nd place with a score of 79.4:


And the Federal Premium Gold Medal Match ammunition was a surprising 3rd place with a score of 79.3 and one X-Ring:



Oh, and one final comment: I am
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Old 08-19-2017, 08:44 PM
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Default The Tightest Box (Picture Heavy; NSFW maybe)

What?! This is a thread about which of four different ammunition brands shot the smallest group out of my PTR 91, GI model, regardless of its placement on the target.

I bought all of the ammunition from SGAmmo.com (per round price does not include shipping).
Malaysian surplus at $0.37 per round:

German surplus at $0.45 per round:

Federal Premium Gold Medal Match at $1.05 per round, and PPU Match at $0.75 per round:


At 200 yds the German surplus had the 2nd highest score and the smallest group extent box (GEB):

The Federal Match had the highest score and the 2nd smallest GEB:

The PPU Match had the lowest score and the 3rd biggest GEB (unless you want to throw out the one low shot as a flyer):

And the Malaysian surplus had the 3rd lowest score and the biggest GEB:


At 300 yds the PPU Match had the 3rd lowest score but the smallest GEB:

The Malaysian surplus had the 2nd highest score and the 2nd smallest GEB:

The German surplus had the lowest score and the 3rd biggest GEB:

And even though the Federal Match had the highest score at 300 yds, it also had the biggest GEB:


I shot two different strings at 600 yds. One the first string, the PPU Match has the highest score and the smallest GEB:


The Malaysian surplus technically had the 3rd lowest score and the 3rd biggest GEB:


However, one shot of the German surplus was so far off that it didnít even register on the target program. And, two shots of the Federal Match registered as 0.0 scores. Since neither of those groups contained 10 shots, Iím not including them.

On the second string the PPU Match had the 2nd highest score and the smallest GEB again at 600 yds:


This time I got all 10 shots of Federal Match inside the scoring area and it produced the 3rd lowest score and the 2nd smallest GEB:


I also got all 10 of the second group of German surplus rounds on target this time. It got the highest score and the third biggest GEB:



And, the Malaysian surplus came in last in score and GEB on the second round:


Conclusions: Until this past range trip, I was a big fan of the price/performance of the German surplus. However, at $0.37 a round, the Malaysian surplus has become a contender, maybe even out to 300 yds. And, I think Iím definitely going to buy some more PPU Match and work on moving its groups onto the X-Ring.
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Old 08-19-2017, 08:58 PM
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Good data.

That PPU match shot well for me. I do not spend the time on data that you have here.

It all comes down to what you are wanting to do. All of the grouping would have made pretty good hunting loads out to 200 yards or so.
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:45 AM
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Enjoyed this post. Thanks for taking the time to take photos and share the data.
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Old 08-20-2017, 11:13 AM
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No disrespect, but you do realize that it's likely your shooting that is the biggest variable in your groups, right?

Much, or all of the ammo you're using, is capable of groups a fraction of the size you're getting.
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Old 08-20-2017, 12:45 PM
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i was going to ask if all the rounds were the same bullet weight, but i can see there are not. but still good info, thanks. do you reload yet?
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Old 08-20-2017, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
No disrespect, but you do realize that it's likely your shooting that is the biggest variable in your groups, right?

Much, or all of the ammo you're using, is capable of groups a fraction of the size you're getting.
No disrespect, but you do realize that he never said whether he was using a bench rest or not, right? If he is set up on a bench where the human factor is effectively removed from the situation, then, no. This really is representative of the best performance of this ammo in his rifle.

If, however, the weapon only had human support, then you'd be right. But even if he is shooting that way, that exercise provides more useful data (in my opinion) because it allows him to see which ammo is most accurate with his rifle in field conditions. Much more applicable in the real world than bench rest shooting.
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Old 08-20-2017, 12:56 PM
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If this is the best the ammo/rifle combo are capable of from a bench rest at 200 yards then there is a problem somewhere. If this is not from a bench rest then the biggest variable is the shooter and the data is interesting but really not all that useful to determine which ammo is more accurate. Fun though!

Edit to add: As for the test providing the best ammo under field conditions if not suing a bench rest, I would agree if the results are repeatable. The whole point of isolating out the shooter is what how we know how accurate the rifle and ammo are. For a real world test under field conditions we would need multiple data points. If the German surplus always came in with a tighter group of say, 10 rounds, then I would agree. But with one set of 10 rounds per ammo then the variation could all be frm the shooter.
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Old 08-20-2017, 12:58 PM
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in his other post on this subject he did say he was on a bench and supported.
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:36 PM
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you thread title sounds like porn
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Old 08-20-2017, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weapons_762 View Post
i was going to ask if all the rounds were the same bullet weight, but i can see there are not. but still good info, thanks. do you reload yet?
No, I don't reload.
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:08 AM
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Thank you for sharing!

You might also give PPU M80 145gr & Hirtenberger surplus a go, if you haven't allready.

The Hertenberger shoots well for us in PTR's. Although listed as not reloadable, berdan primed, we've received some manufactured in 1980 which is boxer primed/reloadable. Most is 1977 though (berdan/non).

...funny...I litterally just finished charging up 52 G3 magazines! 1 can for range use next time, 3 cans to put up. All Hertenberger.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:46 AM
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Nice work. Groups at 200-600 yards. Most shoot groups at 50-100. These are the kinds of reviews i like, EXCELLENT JOB!
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Old 08-22-2017, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Backwoods Alaskan View Post
No disrespect, but you do realize that he never said whether he was using a bench rest or not, right? If he is set up on a bench where the human factor is effectively removed from the situation, then, no. This really is representative of the best performance of this ammo in his rifle.

If, however, the weapon only had human support, then you'd be right. But even if he is shooting that way, that exercise provides more useful data (in my opinion) because it allows him to see which ammo is most accurate with his rifle in field conditions. Much more applicable in the real world than bench rest shooting.
No disrespect, but did you even bother to look at the group sizes?

Benching a gun does not make a shooter into a benchrest champion. Human error is a bigger variable than good ammo with most shooters, even from a supported position. Most shooters cannot gauge what good factory ammo is capable of, because they can't shoot up to it. Many times I've heard guys complain about group sizes at the range with a particular load, and sat down and shot a group half the size with their gun and ammo.

I have been a vocal supporter of the OP and his journey into long range shooting. He is shooting a lot, and documenting his progress. He is doing very well. I was just pointing out that most of the ammunition he was using is probably capable of much smaller groups in even a mediocre rifle. If he were to repeat the testing blind, and the groups remained virtually the same across the different loads, then it might be representative of what his rifle/sighting system is capable of with those loads.

My guess is that the groups would be different, and if they weren't, he needs to address his gun and/or sighting system.
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Old 08-22-2017, 10:28 AM
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I guess in the grand scheme of things.... we're all looking to get the tightest box we can.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:47 AM
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Before Mike says it, Please properly name your thread titles. LOL
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:50 AM
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,,and here I thought this was gonna be about a hot chick....
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Old 08-22-2017, 06:42 PM
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Default Silhouette Overlays at 200, 300, and 600 yds

Here is the original thread: https://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...609&highlight=

I do believe in, and practice, the maxim of ďaim small, miss small.Ē Nevertheless, I also realize that Iím shooting (mostly) surplus/budget ammunition out of a battle rifle clone (PTR 91, GI model). Therefore, at the end of the day, if my groups are tighter than they were the last time, and the more of my shots are sub MOM (minute of man), Iím a happy camper.

So, with all of that in mind, Iím trying to glean one more round of relevant data from my last range trip. I took the NRA targets and overlaid a silhouette on them. The body is 18Ē x 18Ē and the head is 6Ē x 6Ē. I was shooting off of a table with a rest.

Malaysian and German surplus ammo at 200 yds:


PPU Match and Federal Gold Medal Match ammo at 200 yds:


Malaysian and German surplus ammo at 300 yds:


PPU Match and Federal Gold Medal Match ammo at 300 yds:


Malaysian surplus ammo at 600 yds:

German surplus ammo at 600 yds:


PPU Match ammo at 600 yds:


Federal Gold Medal Match ammo at 600 yds:


And just in case you didnít read the original thread, this was my very first time ever shooting at 600 yds.
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:14 PM
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I think you're doing great, as I've said before.

Just don't put too much into ammunition group size differences at this point.
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Old 08-23-2017, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
I think you're doing great, as I've said before.

Just don't put too much into ammunition group size differences at this point.
I'm not; I'm just offering it for what it's worth. I guess the alternate thread title could be "Here's how I did with these four brands of ammunition on this particular day. YMMV"
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