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Old 08-04-2014, 07:28 AM
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Votes are in--IV's are out- wound care is in. Even with training, no hospital with
MD's and surgeons, no point.

Wound care, however, is a great topic.
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Old 08-04-2014, 07:35 AM
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You will need to have a Rx for it or be an approved agency to order it anyway. Normal Saline 0.9% is not sold directly to the public. There was a real shortage a few months ago for 500ml bags. Even the 1000ml were difficult to get.
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamZeke View Post
True, but I think you will find that vet suppliers are getting a lot tighter these days for the same reasons the med suppliers are, namely litigation threats. Lots of things we use to get easy from vet suppliers are becoming very hard to buy now. This restriction will only increase over time.



Sterile Water for Irrigation. It is a product a little easier to get and perfect for wound irrigation because that's what it is made for.

Also, you can buy saline nasal spray in cans that are sterile for the first use. You can direct the low pressure spray too, which would be handy for wound cleaning.



Eye wash is common to find and that is sterile too.

Finally, you can find basic wound wash sprays at your drug store too that are really just buffered sterile water under pressure.

If the goal is a sterile wound wash you have a lot of options out there. No need to hang your hopes on trying to get IV bags which can be difficult to get. Not to mention that a knife slit IV bag isn't the easiest thing to wash a wound carefully with.
Yeah, I was looking around the web for a veterinarian supplier to find IV normal saline. So far every place I checked they did want a veterinary prescription for IV fluids, but I am still looking. It appears many places online that sold Iv normal saline for humans were sold out.
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:16 AM
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Mrs Page, I bet you could give us a great run down on caring for the elderly at home.
Anyone care to take up wound care? Doc?
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:34 AM
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Peachtree Natural foods carries the Colloidal Silver. Price is good. I buy it by the case.
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:47 AM
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Would you mind giving us a quick tutorial on its uses, that is why you buy it? I'll go over how it is made in exchange.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:55 AM
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do not inject water in animals or people. It will break down the blood cells. I used to purchase saline and ringer's to administer to lambs and goats who has scours. animals can absorb it sub Q. It save a lot of babies. Now it requires a script. It is of great value. The disadvantage of administering to people is that you don't have a lab to check the results. you can make your own saline solution with pure salt or sodium chloride. finding pure salt could be an issue.
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greta View Post
Yeah, I was looking around the web for a veterinarian supplier to find IV normal saline. So far every place I checked they did want a veterinary prescription for IV fluids, but I am still looking. It appears many places online that sold Iv normal saline for humans were sold out.
Yes, besides the trouble of getting them to sell to you there is also a frequent shortage of many pharmaceutical supplies. This is an industry and government interaction crisis. The FDA began clamping down on sloppy practices years ago and doing more inspections. Industry responded by having frequent shutdowns claiming they needed to be better prepared for inspections. It's a ploy to get pharmacists to lobby to get the FDA to back off so they can get the stock they need. It's all very childish and patients are paying the price for this, both in costs and wellness.


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do not inject water in animals or people. It will break down the blood cells. I used to purchase saline and ringer's to administer to lambs and goats who has scours. animals can absorb it sub Q. It save a lot of babies. Now it requires a script. It is of great value. The disadvantage of administering to people is that you don't have a lab to check the results. you can make your own saline solution with pure salt or sodium chloride. finding pure salt could be an issue.
NS is super filtered saline to ensure it is pyrogen free. I would really hate the idea of trying to make truly safe NS outside of very controlled conditions.
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:26 PM
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Hydration via enema. Most people can insert a tube in a rectum. It's a lot easier than starting an IV.
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:20 PM
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All the concerns that go along with IV administration are valid, and it's definitely something you need training and or guidance to do. However, the other way of looking at it is like an IFAK'S use ON THE PERSON CARRYING IT not by the person carrying it. In other words the people ,who know what they are doing, simply may not have it or enough of it when you or your family need it. Ambulances, EMS services, and even hospitals all have surprisingly limited amounts of heavily used items, often relying on " just in time" stocking just like the rest of the world. For example, the service I worked for kept fewer than 12 bags of IV fluids on each truck, try to put a few extra on your truck and the stock manager would pull them, the stock room had just enough for about two weeks of NORMAL operations. Even during normal tours I ran out of one fluid or another, before getting back to the station where the stock was stupidly kept in one location.

So, what I'm saying is " If you have basic equipment and supplies in quantity, it is a good ideal to stock at least one provider level above what you can use."
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:53 PM
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Hydration via enema. Most people can insert a tube in a rectum. It's a lot easier than starting an IV.
My understanding of that is it is not effective. Most fluid is absorbed in the large intestine. The rectum is essentially a holding area for stool. It's highly vascular and thus an effective route for administration of some drugs, just not fluid.

I believe this as a method of hydration was largely a result of a family that was lost at sea with a small child. The water in their life boat wasn't fit for oral consumption so the mother gave the kid an enema and the child survived. From what I've read/learned (written/taught by people much smarter than me) the child survived despite of the intervention.

I for one, would advocate for oral rehydration salts. Some of the new ones don't taste so horrible and they are specifically formulated to replace lost fluids in a non trauma setting.
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:10 PM
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My understanding of that is it is not effective. Most fluid is absorbed in the large intestine. The rectum is essentially a holding area for stool. It's highly vascular and thus an effective route for administration of some drugs, just not fluid.

I believe this as a method of hydration was largely a result of a family that was lost at sea with a small child. The water in their life boat wasn't fit for oral consumption so the mother gave the kid an enema and the child survived. From what I've read/learned (written/taught by people much smarter than me) the child survived despite of the intervention.

I for one, would advocate for oral rehydration salts. Some of the new ones don't taste so horrible and they are specifically formulated to replace lost fluids in a non trauma setting.
If you search "Murphy drip" or proctoclysis it will give you a better understanding.
It's a valid and useful procedure, but has limitations. The first 7 or so inches in adults is considered the rectum and it is supplied by a different part of the vascular system (which is why suppositories work more quickly than oral meds) and when you start a Murphy drip you have to advance the tubing (Foley cath works well) past the rectum into the descending colon. By positioning the patient on their right side and keeping the drip rate low you avoid the bowel emptying enema effect.

Something to keep in your bag of tricks, but pretty slow for a primary method!
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jfirebalrog View Post
If you search "Murphy drip" or proctoclysis it will give you a better understanding.
It's a valid and useful procedure, but has limitations. The first 7 or so inches in adults is considered the rectum and it is supplied by a different part of the vascular system (which is why suppositories work more quickly than oral meds) and when you start a Murphy drip you have to advance the tubing (Foley cath works well) past the rectum into the descending colon. By positioning the patient on their right side and keeping the drip rate low you avoid the bowel emptying enema effect.

Something to keep in your bag of tricks, but pretty slow for a primary method!
Thanks! I'm always learning something new around here. One of the reasons I love this place!

Now off to do some reading.
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Old 08-05-2014, 12:00 AM
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Can you even find saline in a bag right now? Supposed to be a nation wide shortage these days.
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Old 08-05-2014, 01:30 AM
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Can you even find saline in a bag right now? Supposed to be a nation wide shortage these days.
A very good article on this issue. Note in the article the finger pointing by suppliers at the FDA for being stringent on controls.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014...pitals-on-edge
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Old 08-05-2014, 05:03 AM
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Can you even find saline in a bag right now? Supposed to be a nation wide shortage these days.
Our supply is back to normal for now. Has been for about a month. We did start using just 10cc saline locks though and will continue just for access and KVO at one of my agency's. That is and was the protocol at the other.
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Old 08-05-2014, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penguinman000 View Post
My understanding of that is it is not effective. Most fluid is absorbed in the large intestine. The rectum is essentially a holding area for stool. It's highly vascular and thus an effective route for administration of some drugs, just not fluid.

I believe this as a method of hydration was largely a result of a family that was lost at sea with a small child. The water in their life boat wasn't fit for oral consumption so the mother gave the kid an enema and the child survived. From what I've read/learned (written/taught by people much smarter than me) the child survived despite of the intervention.

I for one, would advocate for oral rehydration salts. Some of the new ones don't taste so horrible and they are specifically formulated to replace lost fluids in a non trauma setting.
Oral rehydration is ineffective with vomiting. Google proctoclysis.
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Old 08-05-2014, 09:56 AM
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US troops have used Saline IV for emergency drinking water.

I have heard of one EMT-P that broke down in the desert that used the IVs he carried in his kit for drinking water.

Wound care and cleaning out eyes are a good reason to have them in your kit.
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Old 08-05-2014, 11:30 AM
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When I was learning how to make colloidal silver, one of the instructions was to make one's own saline solution using sea salt, for adding to the process.
It's just a few drops per 20 oz distilled water to accelerate the process .
Don't get paranoid . my stuff works just fine .
Any way after making one's first batch of colloidal silver you can add some of it to the saline solution and it will not go bad , ever.
Post SHTF, your not going to have medical community to fall back on, and you will have to improvise and even make mistakes .
People are going to die one way or another ,doing something beats doing nothing.
The important thing here is to learn as much as one can especially how to make the tools when they are not available or know what you can use in the mean time.
One of the reasons I have microscopes it to be able to compare what my books show for decease and germs. Being able to inspect water for pathogens .
Right now we have the means of getting the tools to learn.
Leaving it to some one else, or a more opportune moment, it's not going to happen.
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Old 08-05-2014, 12:49 PM
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Can you even find saline in a bag right now? Supposed to be a nation wide shortage these days.
Dealmed.com still had it last time I looked.

Looks like they're out now.
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