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Which is best BOL. American Redoubt or Ozarks?

32K views 230 replies 50 participants last post by  Gulcher 
#1 ·
What is your opinion plus and minus on each location. And your reason for picking one or the other.
 
#97 ·
I'll just bring up another perspective. I didn't move to Montana ONLY so that I could survive if SHTF. Although that was toward the top of the list.

The chances of the world ending and the zombies coming are slim to none, let's admit it. I mean yeah, it could happen. But in the mean time we have to live LIFE.

So we have to be happy with the choice we make, not just because we think we'll outlive the plague or the ravaging hordes, but because we will spend the rest of our days there.

So whether you prefer the rainfall and easier gardening of the Ozarks, or the isolation and beauty of the forests and mountains that I see every day when I step outside, it doesn't really matter that much whether we choose the Ozarks or the Rocky Mountain area. Either choice is good, and certainly better than almost any other area in the US, IMHO.

Because it may be a long time until the zombies come. In the mean time, we've got to be happy. ;)

.
 
#98 ·
I've been to both areas quite a few times. My opinion is that both (like every other area anywhere) have advantages and disadvantages (to greatly varying degrees).

If you are resourceful and properly prepared for the area your chances of survival increase exponentially. Many, perhaps most people who post here are prepared or working towards that goal. Some are wannabes . Not discounting location at all but it is more important how one is prepared than where one lives.

The basics of being prepared (preaching to the choir):
1) Shelter suitable to the environment. Includes source of fuel where needed and shelter to keep warm or cool.
2) A reliable source of water. For personal and livestock use. For hygiene and for growing food.
3) A means to grow food. Storing food is just not going to cut it in the long run. This means possession of, or access to a minimal amount of suitable land (which again is dependent on a particular area). Also could be an area where one can live off nature's bounty but they are scarcer.
4) A reasonable means of protection. You can have all the rest but if you can't protect it, it is not yours and your chance of survival decreases accordingly.
5) Tools and equipment (at least basic) to utilize and maintain the rest of your assets.
6) Knowledge. Although my intention was to originally have this list made according to priority, this last one made me think of the fact that it maybe should have been at numero uno.

I do know that the OP was limited to two choices but there are many many places in the US (and in the world) that are very conducive to long term survival than just the two choices.

One thing I was curious about on the Rawles' map MMM posted was if the little circles on it were supposed to be showing decent survival locations? If it was I agree with all of them but he missed quite a few equally conducive places. Several places in my thoughts glaringly so.
 
#104 ·
I've been to both areas quite a few times. My opinion is that both (like every other area anywhere) have advantages and disadvantages (to greatly varying degrees).



One thing I was curious about on the Rawles' map MMM posted was if the little circles on it were supposed to be showing decent survival locations? If it was I agree with all of them but he missed quite a few equally conducive places. Several places in my thoughts glaringly so.
I think you mean this map which actually is not a Rawles' map but just one I found that shows the balkanization of the USA IF that were to ever happen. There actually are many dozens possibly many hundreds of potential balkanization maps.

I am not sure what the circles truly mean but I am guessing that they might mean about some populated areas. Maybe others can figure it out. The area circled in SE WY where Cheyenne is with its military base etc. is what I consider the least safe place to be in Wyoming plus being too close to CO and other dangers.

Here is Rawles' map and his whole original blog about the American Redoubt. > https://survivalblog.com/redoubt/

My post that mtnairkin must curious about >

In the survivalblog link Rawles has maps showing the exact areas that he thinks is the American Redoubt, the 3 last still mostly free states - my words and his idea that eastern Washington and Oregon also. He almost included CO and Alaska maybe a few others but gave reasons why he did not include them. I would have to re-read his survival blog for the details.

For maybe twenty years now I have thought that MT, ID, WY, and the Dakotas should think about forming their own country. Someday it might be possible especially if the USA gets Balkanized.

"Balkanization, division of a multinational state into smaller ethnically homogeneous entities. The term also is used to refer to ethnic conflict within multiethnic states. . It was coined at the end of World War I to describe the ethnic and political fragmentation that followed the breakup of the Ottoman Empire."

 
#102 ·
Very true. Historically, and I also believe still a big factor, isolation has not been the best means of survival (even though I personally lean towards isolation, I do know that having like minded people around you is a better situation).

Two things come to mind. It is extremely difficult to find either true isolation or like minded people. :)
 
#103 ·
I got delayed from doing my intended chores so came back here with my musings.

Mankind has been adaptable to the extreme. We have lived and thrived in every environment available on earth due to our intelligence and use of tools in changing our environment.

We live at every temperature extreme ranging from a couple of hundred degrees below zero to 120 above zero (F). From the driest desert to rain forest with 200 inches of annual rainfall. With rather recent technology, we live for months under water (submarines) and in outer space.

You'd think that we could manage to live in more reasonable environs. :)
 
#107 ·
Yellowstone could obliterate the redoubt and bury the Ozarks in a foot of volcanic ash, which is one way of saying there really IS no safe place, perhaps some are little safer than others. Like I said, I'm in Rawles Redoubt by default. I didn't even know I was here until I stumbled upon it. Thanks James now every nut case on the planet has a destination if TSHTF...LOL
 
#108 ·
Actually? Isolation is pretty easy here in Wyoming. I plan on a nomadic life for a few months/years in one of several high altitude hiding spots. It'll depend on where I'm working when it goes down. I prefer to work in either Gillette, Rock Springs or Casper.

I consider the Bighorns ideal but can cope with the Winds, Yellowstone or the Wyoming Range. If I'm in Rawlins, I'll bug out to the Ferris mountains but that and/or the Snowies would be my last choices.
 
#110 ·
The Ozarks, like all of North America will get a few inches of ash.
There will be a couple few cold years while the dust settles.
If you have two plus years of food you will be fine in the Ozarks.
It will not take that long for things to get back to normal.
Look at the recovery of Mt. St. Helens. Nature bounces back.
The Redoubt will be consumed by the 600 mile radius kill-zone.
There is enough wood here to keep warm for many years and by then there will be full recovery.
Me, I am not so worried about Yellowstone any more than asteroids, mega-EMPs, nukes, whatever.
 
#112 ·
The Ozarks, like all of North America will get a few inches of ash.
.
2-4 inches over most of it.

I have plastic sheeting to cover my raised beds in the unlikely event of one or another type of fallout. (Scavenged free from a construction dumpster (with permission)

I need to build some better cold frames, (on the list anyway) but it is likely I'll be fine.
 
#119 ·
I'm glad this thread came up. I've been trying to decide if I want to move at all (once swore I didn't want to, but never say never) and if I do, where. One property is in north Texas at PK Lake (a lake view property, not on the lake) which is developing but rather slowly, but I hope will always be well away from cities; and the other is Battiest, Ok., in southeastern Oklahoma.

I bought the PK property from a friend several years ago, so I know the area and the property. The property in Battiest I bought about 6 years ago and have only visited six times. It's a beautiful wooded property, but it's not the extremely dense east Texas Big Thicket woodlands I have spent most of my life in. The population there is sparse, the climate a bit more seasonal, and the crop growing potential is greatly expanded.

The PK property has a house (in need of a new roof, which will be forthcoming this summer or fall, regardless of if I choose to move there or elsewhere, it needs a roof and I'll be doing R panel) and the property in Battiest has nothing on it. No house, ancient well, no septic, etc.

I can see both properties having pros and cons. These kinds of discussions give me more to think about other than just which one has a house vs not, or water vs. not. Those are critical decisions, but there is more to consider.
 
#120 ·
My son used to live in Graham before moving to Chico and we looked at properties in the general area to include Possum Kingdom. I also have a friend that lives in Wagoner, OK.

PK is more of a vacation area and I can envision many owners thinking they are going to bug out to their summer house there. Bringing not much more then they can carry in their cars and not really being prepared. PK isn't developing as in becoming a large town but there is a steady growth of vacation homes for people wanting of get out of DFW in the summer. As a vacation/recreation area huge numbers of people know about the area and might decide to head that way.

PK is also in the general exit flow area of the masses leaving DFW during SHTF.

Battiest looks to be more of a permanent resident, small town area that shouldn't see much of an influx of refugees. Especially since there are no large cities in close proximity. Though it is probably more prone to tornado activity.

My advice is to sell the PK house as it would get you a good profit since from what I saw properties aren't cheap in that area and put the money into developing the Battiest location. Doing that would allow you to set up the Battiest property the way you want to better fit your needs.

You also avoid the big TX bite of property taxes.


Bit of trivia, this song is about PK.
 
#130 ·
Growing up in Minneapolis, and the harsh midwest winters of the 1970s/1980s...I would like to submit an idea. After having moved to San Diego 25 years ago and seeing what the population of transplants in SoCal is and more importantly, WHY......In a true SHTF scenario, I would opt to go north for two reasons. 1. I do believe the gen pop will migrate south for what they imagine to be easier living conditions and inability to cope with the thing called "WINTER". 2. If there were to be a civil war and we DO get invaded by a foreign country ( Russia, China...hell, Guatamala), it seems to me the best entrance is through southern borders/Mexico.
All of this is only speculation of course but since we are all faced with strategically trying to "plan ahead" for a scenario we have NO idea how to accurately predict-Im open to reading others input/thoughts.

By the way...since I live in a DEMOCRATIC cesspool of douchebaggery...I can speculate 90% of the SoCal population are weak wristed,crisis dysfunctional, chicken ****s that would be about as useful as a glass hammer. Desperate and panicked idiots are a VERY scary crowd of sheeple.
 
#132 ·
#133 ·
#139 ·
I love that map and says 0 zone and more important from actually being up there looking up at the Milky Way etc. and seeing it better than in any other place it is pristine darkness. Only the most remote areas of Alaska or Canada might be better. Up on top of a mountain I can see thirty or so miles away headlights from the few vehicles that might be driving around the valley. More vehicles during hunting season in the fall.

I pretty much have to remain at extended elevations because I don't tolerate heat well and am seriously allergic to poison ivy, sumac and oak. I also prefer solitude and no bugs. Even Mikes place is not remote enough for me.

Ya'll do a google earth look at the bighorns or winds here.
I have seen all of Calirado fortunately 30 or so years ago before it was ruined with too many people etc. I have also driven all around Wyoming although never up in the Wind river mountains. I have seen the Bighorn Mountains when I drove to MT then Idaho to see Mike Oehler in N. Idaho over 30 years ago.

I like them but just too far for me to go. I also think at least from many photos I have seen of the Wind River mountains that there are few trees. I love trees and hate to cut down any live ones.

I like the Continental Divide better than most places and there is the famous trail but only a few times have I ever seen hikers of the Divide. I gave 3 people rides down to Encampment when they were hiking the Divide and needed to get to the nearest town to eat and wash clothes.

My mountain place is much more remote from Nov. to June when the WY state highway 70 is closed for the winter with a locked gate.
No traffic in the winter except snowmobiles mainly on weekends on the state highway which is turned into a snowmobile / ski trail.
As shown in the pic I posted recently.

Even in the summer about all the traffic is only on Saturdays and Sundays. I usually see no traffic on my private dirt road on weekdays even from mid June to Nov.

There are few areas in the USA more cool in everyway but with real cool temps in July and August by my shaded cold water springs. I think 60 F is the most I have seen down by the shady springs.
 
#140 ·
Wife and I bought land in the Ozarks of Southern Missouri about 10 years ago. We retired to the property from Pennsylvania two years ago. Taxes are much less and land is cheap. The state is gun friendly and safe away from the larger urban areas. We are close to a town of about 10,000 with a decent medical hospital. We're two hours from major box stores but there are a couple regional stores local to us where we get anything we need for repairs and projects. If you look to retire to the area be sure to have financial fall back as in a pension or 401 K or a decent cash supply. There aren't many jobs.
 
#142 ·
That interactive light pollution map is fantastic, but I can't claim credit for finding it. Another form of the same map was brought out in an earlier post, and I liked it so much that I dug into the source until I discovered a mo' better version.

I must say that I found my BOL over two decades ago, using a similar map that was printed in a National Geographic magazine. I looked for the blackest hole I could find that also had the other criteria I wanted. Bingo! The light pollution map was the guiding light for me.
 
#152 ·
What is it with Pennsylvania? we have a retired couple that moved here from Pennsylvania, they seem like nice people yet they spend money like a drunken sailor...most folks around here are pretty frugal so something like that doesn't go unnoticed. Not that it is a bad thing, but it does garner attention and gossip.
 
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#155 ·
Couple of possibilities...

If they were in Amish/Mennonite area, they know how to make Abe scream, and are happy to spend the pile they've saved scrimping, saving, being tight-fisted sharp traders over the years

OR

They're used to an expensive area, say near Philly, or across the river from Princeton... there are actually a lot of expensive areas, plus PA is a wealthy state.

OR

They think they can buy friends and/or influence by having/spending a lot of money or making it look like they have a lot of money

OR

They genuinely care about their neighbors/community and try to buy everything locally instead of from Amazon, Lehman's, Cumberland, etc.......
 
#154 ·
I believe that where you live for SHTF should be mostly concerned with where you work for a living. I live 75 miles from where I work but have a wage to support the fuel cost plus. If SHTF I am set up in an environment naturally conducive to survival. It is upon me to make sure I have talents and/or skills and/or goods to trade so that I survive. A few locations in the country are not the key unless you want to advertise and have everyone...
 
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#156 ·
Well reading the thread again, my take away is both areas have their plus and minus. Ozarks hot humid lot of nasty biting insects etc. Redoubt, cold winters snow shorter growing season but still get a crop or garden. Ozarks always touted as year round garden. I guess but how many actually do this, a lot of varieties, not heat tolerant. Not sure which way to jump on this topic, as in the Redoubt you can get the same with a hoop house or small greenhouse.
Each area has its share of geological hazards. On a scale of top priority hazards what are the chances of that happening in our life times? Meaning a Yellowstone vs a New Madrid.
Nuclear Hazards I think the south has more and Nuke Plants and I think that means the Redoubt scores higher there. Mostly in regards to air born contamination. Again dependent on exact location.
For me I think the deciding thing is population. The redoubt is overwhelmingly ahead on that score. I think east of the Mississippi is a no go as far as too many people not enough resources.
Just west of the Mississippi and if you draw a line from Winnipeg Canada south to the Gulf still very heavily populated. In my mind people are the greatest threat in a collapse. Man is a dangerous animal. The Ozarks no matter which part from what I can see looking at maps and population of Metropolitan areas of the cities in or near the Ozarks, is heavily populated. Example Springfield MO. If you include the Metro area is over 1m. Lots of good roads leading south into the Ozarks, draw a circle of 300 mile radius you could be a target easily. Eastern Ozarks you have St. Louis, Metro area several million, a little farther south. Memphis same thing. East to Little Rock over 1 million in the Metro area. A lot of people.
If you look at the lines of drift in Katrina folks west of the Mississippi went to Texas those east ran north and quite a few even ended up as far north as Springfield Mo. Not saying that is likely in a general collapse but something to consider. Anyway my 2 cents for now.
 
#157 ·
Well reading the thread again, my take away is both areas have their plus and minus. Man is a dangerous animal. The Ozarks no matter which part from what I can see looking at maps and population of Metropolitan areas of the cities in or near the Ozarks, is heavily populated. Example Springfield MO. If you include the Metro area is over 1m. Lots of good roads leading south into the Ozarks, draw a circle of 300 mile radius you could be a target easily. Eastern Ozarks you have St. Louis, Metro area several million, a little farther south. Memphis same thing. East to Little Rock over 1 million in the Metro area. A lot of people.
If you look at the lines of drift in Katrina folks west of the Mississippi went to Texas those east ran north and quite a few even ended up as far north as Springfield Mo. Not saying that is likely in a general collapse but something to consider. Anyway my 2 cents for now.
How I could go on and for every plus about any other part of the USA even the whole freakin world I could give ten pluses for the Redoubt. Actually the states of MT, ID and WY. Mainly Wyoming since I think MT and Idaho are too over populated and a bit too liberal.

I quoted what I most liked about your post Gulcher. Man is dangerous and can be very nice also. I like to say about myself to others that I am the nicest guy they will ever meet unless I or any of mine are attacked.

I did not choose where I was born but glad I was born in northern CO. I now hate CO for many reasons some reasons I won't go into. Mainly CO which some of us now call Calirado is turning as fast as it can into a New Californica. I now live in Wyoming which is not perfect but perfect enough for me.

Gulcher and anyone else here is your sentence I most agree with: "The Ozarks no matter which part from what I can see looking at maps and population of Metropolitan areas of the cities in or near the Ozarks, is heavily populated."

I don't care if the Ozarks are a gardening / farming paradise or beautiful weather year round. Any place with big cities, even more than enough cities within a half tank of gas driving distance ruins that area, for me anyway...
 
#159 ·
Well reading the thread again, my take away is both areas have their plus and minus. Ozarks hot humid lot of nasty biting insects etc. Redoubt, cold winters snow shorter growing season but still get a crop or garden. Ozarks always touted as year round garden. I guess but how many actually do this, a lot of varieties, not heat tolerant. Not sure which way to jump on this topic, as in the Redoubt you can get the same with a hoop house or small greenhouse.
Each area has its share of geological hazards. On a scale of top priority hazards what are the chances of that happening in our life times? Meaning a Yellowstone vs a New Madrid.
Nuclear Hazards I think the south has more and Nuke Plants and I think that means the Redoubt scores higher there. Mostly in regards to air born contamination. Again dependent on exact location.
For me I think the deciding thing is population. The redoubt is overwhelmingly ahead on that score. I think east of the Mississippi is a no go as far as too many people not enough resources.
Just west of the Mississippi and if you draw a line from Winnipeg Canada south to the Gulf still very heavily populated. In my mind people are the greatest threat in a collapse. Man is a dangerous animal. The Ozarks no matter which part from what I can see looking at maps and population of Metropolitan areas of the cities in or near the Ozarks, is heavily populated. Example, Springfield MO. If you include the Metro area is over 1m. Lots of good roads leading south into the Ozarks, draw a circle of 300 mile radius you could be a target easily. Eastern Ozarks you have St. Louis, Metro area several million, a little farther south. Memphis same thing. East to Little Rock over 1 million in the Metro area. A lot of people.
If you look at the lines of drift in Katrina folks west of the Mississippi went to Texas those east ran north and quite a few even ended up as far north as Springfield Mo. Not saying that is likely in a general collapse but something to consider. Anyway my 2 cents for now.
I thought about letting the bolded portion slide, but Springfield does not have a Metro area.
It has a population of around 160k, and if you add up the four surrounding counties it might equal 400k, but that includes a lot of corn fields.

So basically your suggestion that the Ozark region is highly populated is nothing but bold talk.I suggest that you stick to what you know, because you dont know crap about Missouri.
 
#165 ·
.

So basically your suggestion that the Ozark region is highly populated is nothing but bold talk.I suggest that you stick to what you know, because you dont know crap about Missouri.
I've driven extensively all over the country.

What I tell people about driving here (NOW) is to look at the map and think about how long it'll take you (based on your years of experience)

...and then double it!


I do not disagree that there are areas of the country (typically with far less water, and food resources) that are less populated.
But what's amazing to me is how... Easy it is to get "further out" than you'd think around here. (And this with road maintenance)

And yes I'm including places like West Virginia, colorado, Arizona (all places I've spent time and considered.)

Even the Dakotas (although I Didn't consider them!)

After about 6 "roads less traveled", several requiring 4x4 after a decent rain.... Don't see many people knocking.
 
#168 ·
I've driven extensively all over the country.

What I tell people about driving here (NOW) is to look at the map and think about how long it'll take you (based on your years of experience)

...and then double it!


I do not disagree that there are areas of the country (typically with far less water, and food resources) that are less populated.
But what's amazing to me is how... Easy it is to get "further out" than you'd think around here. (And this with road maintenance)

And yes I'm including places like West Virginia, colorado, Arizona (all places I've spent time and considered.)

Even the Dakotas (although I Didn't consider them!)

After about 6 "roads less traveled", several requiring 4x4 after a decent rain.... Don't see many people knocking.
Where I live in N. Central AR. pretty much everything is accessible 24/7 with a 2 WD car or pick up. Regardless of weather, Tornado's excepted. And you are rarely out of sight of a dwelling ever. Even secondary hwy have fair constant volume of traffic. Definitely not an isolated area. The light map don't lie. A lot of people.
 
#167 ·
I drive an hour and half to Missoula (pop 73k) for my monthly shopping and I'm like "Man, all this traffic and all these people are driving me CRAZY. I've got to get out of here!" LOL
Yup. As another prepper who goes shopping in Missoula about once a month I totally agree with you. Tried to go downtown to get some bulk spices and just about had a panic attack. All those Kamikaze hipsters jumping out at your car like they never saw one before.

What sucks even more is that missoula seems to have forgotten that it only exists because its a hub for another 100K who drive in to do their shopping. It seems like zoo town is trying to actively drive out business and make it hard to get to the ones it has. More and more I'm using Amazon just to avoid missoula.

My wife and I always call going to town a 'raid' and try to get everything done on North reserve and then bug back out as fast as possible.

Headed in tomorrow as it happens....pray for me ;)
 
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