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Old 03-18-2020, 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by Peter
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Yet, we're onto the 2nd page and no one has even attempted to answer the specific questions in the OP. The intellectual dishonesty of the (trinitarian) respondents is revealed.
I will answer your specific questions in an honest intellectual manner. In fact I think i can just copy and paste from previous posts for most of the answers. However, I am busy with several projects at the moment and will not be able to post answers until later.
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Old 03-18-2020, 11:40 AM
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I certainly do reconsider this with your post#30 answers. The "me too" was in response to your previous posts (as well as the others who did not answer the OP questions).

Cat, even though this thread is into the 2nd page, you are the only one who even attempted to honestly answer the questions. I appreciate that even if we do not have the same doctrine's 100% down the line.

BTW, how are you dealing with the Coronavirus stuff?
I am the only one going to work (not staying home). However I am one of the few prepper in my area and as such I already helped a friend with a big bottle of Sanitizer that you can't find even if you pay Gold now on it. Critical item. I have enough plus Nitrile gloves and masks... plus ton of food and YES... TOILET PAPER.

Thank you for your reconsideration... I will answer now to your questions.
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Old 03-18-2020, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
Cat,

1st, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. There's a lot to digest and I'll take time getting back to it.

2nd, I found this quoted portion of yours fascinating and think this could be a separate thread. I've expressed sentiments like this, not only about Jesus, but the Bible as a whole to RichardinColorado.

3rd, I'm not sure you answered my actual question about the language being "Son of God" rather than "God incarnate." I know it is a challenging question and certainly not semantics. In no way did St Mark think he was writing about God incarnate and we know this because of his language, not referring to incarnation but the son of God.

Keep in mind, the Greeks had all kinds of gods procreating all kinds of children. Incarnations also occurred in the Greek religion and they articulated the difference. (I say this because the Gospel of Mark was originally written in Greek, right?) So, at the start, there is a departure from incarnation suppositions decades or centuries later.
You are right. I did not answer. I put it in context the same way you put it in context here. I agree with your context. As such the Gospel of Mark was not geared by the Holy Spirit to speak about Jesus The Son of God as in God incarnate but more towards Jesus the Man, the son of God, His miracles and the Good News.

The Greeks will not have been interested in ANOTHER God incarnate thing (they had enough of Roman Emperors thinking they come from Venus / Aphrodite), they were into glorifying man over the Gods so this Gospel is a great start for them and other Gentiles. That is why is also the shortest. Limited span off attention, more like a short letter as in "Hey, BTW this guy seems to be making miracles come check out".

However we have to look at all Gospels as one COMPLETE message. And that complete Message introduces us clearly into the mystery of Trinity without loosing the fact that God the Father remains the central power in all of it.
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Old 03-18-2020, 12:10 PM
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However we have to look at all Gospels as one COMPLETE message.
That's the challenge with the Bible in its entirety. Keeping the whole in mind while being able to only study/read one verse at a time.

Many people say things like, "don't take it out of context" but it is not feasible to quote the entire Bible. That is, like you said earlier (paraphrasing) anything pro or con is in the Bible - out of context. My Bible study leader is fond of saying as you study the Bible you realize the repeated message of don't go too much to the left or too much to the right but stay on the straight and narrow.

Where you involved in that threat where a relative newbie asked what God is best in quoting Psalm 82:1? I have the Spurgeon book The Treasury of David, which explains it beautifully. Each Psalm has like a 10 page explanation. Obviously, it's all overwhelming but that is the joy in getting into the word of God, no?

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And that complete Message introduces us clearly into the mystery of Trinity without loosing the fact that God the Father remains the central power in all of it.
Where you see mystery, I see contradiction and dualism, not in Scripture but in manmade doctrines. I guess we will have to slightly agree to disagree on that one.
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Old 03-18-2020, 01:05 PM
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That's the challenge with the Bible in its entirety. Keeping the whole in mind while being able to only study/read one verse at a time.

Many people say things like, "don't take it out of context" but it is not feasible to quote the entire Bible. That is, like you said earlier (paraphrasing) anything pro or con is in the Bible - out of context. My Bible study leader is fond of saying as you study the Bible you realize the repeated message of don't go too much to the left or too much to the right but stay on the straight and narrow.

Where you involved in that threat where a relative newbie asked what God is best in quoting Psalm 82:1? I have the Spurgeon book The Treasury of David, which explains it beautifully. Each Psalm has like a 10 page explanation. Obviously, it's all overwhelming but that is the joy in getting into the word of God, no?

Where you see mystery, I see contradiction and dualism, not in Scripture but in manmade doctrines. I guess we will have to slightly agree to disagree on that one.

While you tend to disagree with the Trinity dogma think of this:

In the OT there are hints of multiple persons in Godhead:
in "Genesis 3:22 "one of us",
in Genesis 18 the Visitation of Abraham "And they said unto him...".

The whole OT is about God meeting his people and showing them His works but He is quite un-revealing (even clouded) of His Nature and of many other important questions. He gives strict instructions but few answers.

But in the New Testament he comes with answers and many of them and most of them reveal The Trinity.

"Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
Matthew 17:4-5

Also the New testament shows very clear that there is this almost new concept of the trinity of the Godhead through the utterances of many Apostles and Jesus but I will take the words of Most Loved Disciple of Jesus, John to express better this "novel" concept (almost novel for the OT, but not entirely as I explained above):

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5

What I want you to see Peter is that with the New Testament and Jesus this Idea of Trinity become very prevalent. If we believe in a loving God we should also believe that He did not sent His Son to confuse us about the Nature of God but to teach us, new information and explain the old information in a better light. And He did... but somehow you do not see it.
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Old 03-18-2020, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
While you tend to disagree with the Trinity dogma think of this:

In the OT there are hints of multiple persons in Godhead:
That's a great topic for another day + I already addressed this in the OP.

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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
While I admit there are Scripture passages that support the divinity of Jesus, this thread is about exploring those passages that indicate Jesus and God are not one in the same, verses against trinitarianism.
Please try to stay on topic.
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Old 03-18-2020, 06:12 PM
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1. Why does the earliest Gospel, Mark open by calling Jesus the son rather than God incarnate?
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Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
You are right. I did not answer.
Well, by all means, please answer Q1.

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Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
I put it in context the same way you put it in context here. I agree with your context.
We agree! With each post in agreement, I grow increasingly confident the end of the world must be drawing near.
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Old 03-18-2020, 06:36 PM
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1. Why does the earliest Gospel, Mark open by calling Jesus the son rather than God incarnate?
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Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
As such the Gospel of Mark was not geared by the Holy Spirit to speak about Jesus The Son of God as in God incarnate but more towards Jesus the Man, the son of God, His miracles and the Good News.
This is a great post and I want to delve into it respectfully. It goes along with these other insightful paragraphs you wrote:

Quote:
Each Gospel presents a side of Jesus that the other Gospels do not concentrate on. Mathew is the "Simple the Facts" Gospel. Mark is additional more Enthusiastic Gospel presenting additional miracles, Luke is the Intellectual Gospel and John is the closest to the Truth of what really happened, the Mystical Gospel, the Conclusion Gospel. He was also chosen by the Holy Spirit to utter the last words of the Bible "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.".
Each of these Gospel are part of one message. The Holy Spirit speaking with four mouths but in fact with one layered mouth. This is because we are built complex by God and God knows how to talk to us.

So each Gospel presents to you a Jesus that is different from the other Jesus, Mathew Genealogy is different than Luke Genealogy and I explained in another thread why and the wonder that this is. Saint John Damascus explained that to me and I was in awe.
(How or when did Saint John Damascus explain this to you, leaving you in awe?) I confess I am intrigued. Where can I learn more about this 4-way Gospel message?

However, I struggle with the idea that the Gospels do not, independently, speak the truth. Implied in what you wrote is that each Gospel is only speaking a skewed truth. This touches on dualism, which I am inclined to reject. It seems the 4-way dichotomy you present is a bit contrived, like one imposing symbolism not intended with the original writings. Is the Wizard of Oz an Allegory?

The implication of what you are saying is that the Holy Spirit guided St Mark to write somewhat deceptively, "from a certain POV." When he wrote 1:1 'This is the beginning of the good news of Jesus, the Anointed One, the Liberating King, the Son of God,' Mark did not know fully who he was writing about. I tend to reject both of these implications, holding that the Holy Spirit guided St. Mark to write the truth AND St Mark knew who he was writing about. This is tied to the earlier writings of Paul to the Corinthians. Otherwise it MUST be conceded it was written deliberately misleading, "out of context" to the truth.

Also, I never heard 'Each of these Gospel are part of one message.' Rather they were testimonials of 1st hand experience, live witnesses. Can anyone else comment on this?


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Old 03-19-2020, 08:21 AM
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This is a great post and I want to delve into it respectfully. It goes along with these other insightful paragraphs you wrote:



(How or when did Saint John Damascus explain this to you, leaving you in awe?) I confess I am intrigued. Where can I learn more about this 4-way Gospel message?

However, I struggle with the idea that the Gospels do not, independently, speak the truth. Implied in what you wrote is that each Gospel is only speaking a skewed truth. This touches on dualism, which I am inclined to reject. It seems the 4-way dichotomy you present is a bit contrived, like one imposing symbolism not intended with the original writings. Is the Wizard of Oz an Allegory?

The implication of what you are saying is that the Holy Spirit guided St Mark to write somewhat deceptively, "from a certain POV." When he wrote 1:1 'This is the beginning of the good news of Jesus, the Anointed One, the Liberating King, the Son of God,' Mark did not know fully who he was writing about. I tend to reject both of these implications, holding that the Holy Spirit guided St. Mark to write the truth AND St Mark knew who he was writing about. This is tied to the earlier writings of Paul to the Corinthians. Otherwise it MUST be conceded it was written deliberately misleading, "out of context" to the truth.

Also, I never heard 'Each of these Gospel are part of one message.' Rather they were testimonials of 1st hand experience, live witnesses. Can anyone else comment on this?

For us, there is one God, the Father ...
1 Corinthians 8:6 (VOICE)
Only a deceiving (or self-deceiving) mind can think that what I said about Mark Gospel con be construed or concluded as the Holy Spirit being supposedly deceiving in the case he tried to show multiple faces of the message. Were we deceiving our children when we talk about the bees and the flowers instead of outright pornographic sex, or helping them understand the mysteries of life in a gradual way? At no point I even thought that Mark did not know the full truth. He just presented what He new in a slightly different light, as Matthew, Luke and John also do in their Gospels.

I am seeing in full display the way you think the Bible or the Message of God. Over-complicating it and stumbling upon your own inadequacies into wrong conclusions. You will greatly benefit of two urgently needed measures:

1. True humbleness of your mind.
2. Reading the Saint theologians, men and women far greater than you or me in understanding.

For the second one there might be a chance but for the first one it is a sin and a disease that it is as hard to defeat as drug addiction. It can be done but it needs a start. I do not see it yet in you. You should start by Praying to Jesus because as it is right now you miss the 99% of the message of Christianity which is that God Himself came to save us. What can I tell you to open your heart to the Holy Spirit? Nothing. This door remain shut because of pride. This is not a blasting post just stating the truth on your perceptiveness of the Holy Spirit. If you will be imbued by the Holy Spirit you will KNOW Jesus is God. But there is something that stops the Holy Spirit reach you.

If you are interested in the Saint Damascus (8th Century Saint Theologian) please read this:

An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith

https://www.orthodox.net/fathers/exactidx.html

Its free.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Damascus

If you are truly interested in theology you will read this gem from the Unified Church time. way before Protestantism and a good while before the Great Schism. It is better than talking with me. This book maybe will help you.
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Old 03-19-2020, 10:12 AM
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Also there is another hint hidden in the Gospels and the Book of Revelation that Jesus is God. This hint also teaches us something about the nature of Anti-Christ.

God created the world in 6 Days. He rested in the 7th Day. So the secular part of Creation (what is outside God sort of) took 6 Days. The number of God is 7 throughout the Bible this is His Number: How many times to forgive someone? 7 times 70. It is to show infinite but using increasingly the number of God: 7 then 70 then more.

The wisdom that John gives in the Book of Revelation is that the Anti-Christ is not only human vs. Jesus that was God. but that he will come into or bring a very human centered world. A world that is spiritually defined by the Biblical number 6. It will be a world where God disappears to be replaced by a false god: Man. Then 6 will become 60 and 60 will become 600, thus showing how much that world will lose the thought and worship of God.

The fact that the number of the Anti-Christ is 666 which is the expression of the Creation without God should make you wonder why the number of Jesus is 7 times 70, when He expressed the mercy of God. Jesus is God and He warn us of another that will bring into our hearts idolatry of man, the 666 world. This is just a numeric hint from the Bible, not an another argument for Jesus divinity. But it can be.
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Old 03-19-2020, 10:33 AM
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Cat,

I know you want to defend trnitarianism with every breath but getting back to Q1, you seem to admit that Mark 1:1 makes the point that Jesus is God’s anointed and God’s Son - and not God incarnate, yes?

Peter
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Old 03-19-2020, 12:47 PM
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Cat,

I know you want to defend trnitarianism with every breath but getting back to Q1, you seem to admit that Mark 1:1 makes the point that Jesus is Godís anointed and Godís Son - and not God incarnate, yes?

Peter
.........No..........
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Old 03-19-2020, 01:11 PM
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.........No..........
Oh, I guess I was confused by your previous post.

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You are right. I did not answer. ... As such the Gospel of Mark ... speak about Jesus The Son of God ... towards Jesus the Man, the son of God, His miracles and the Good News.
If you cannot admit that Mark 1:1 is explicitly about the Son of God - and NOT God incarnate, it's kind of funny.
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Old 03-19-2020, 01:20 PM
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Oh, I guess I was confused by your previous post.

If you cannot admit that Mark 1:1 is explicitly about the Son of God - and NOT God incarnate, it's kind of funny.
I explained the tonus of a Gospel and you are taking it as an admission to something the Gospel is not or something that I did not think or implied. Theological impediment condition is not funny. I tried to explain in a serious discussion more about the Holy Trinity but you are stuck in your small bubble. Read Saint John of Damascus and get out of the bubble. More than this I do not think I can help.

However, I advise you be more mindful about your conclusions regarding my posts because it will be a shame to show ALL your inadequacies and impediments in a repeated way in all the threads starting with this one. You might not be a pagan but you are severely out of mainstream Christianity to be called a Christian. If you want to learn more, be more humble in your tone.
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Old 03-19-2020, 01:28 PM
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I explained the tonus of a Gospel and you are taking it as an admission to something the Gospel is not
So says you.

This thread is about Scripture verses that go against the trinity. This includes references to "the son of God" which is different from 'hinting at God incarnate.'

Imagine, if you will, a book filled with references to 'God incarnate.' The rare verse suggesting one was merely the Son of God would be looked at as an anomaly. Here, we actually have the other way around.

What's funny about your defense of trinitarianism is that it is not necessary in this thread as this thread is AGAINST trinitarianism, scripture evidence. When I say APPLES, you reflexively say APPLES & ORANGES. Your dualism indoctrination is that complete, e.g., Mark v other Gospels having to be taken as a whole.

I'm reminded of a meeting with HR where they explained a new benefits program. They said repeatedly, that you have to look at the benefit package as whole every time somebody commented on THE FACT that a particular benefit was reduced. It became quite comical and we laughed about it for years.
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Old 03-19-2020, 01:41 PM
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So says you.

This thread is about Scripture verses that go against the trinity. This includes references to "the son of God" which is different from 'hinting at God incarnate.'
...
What's funny about your defense of trinitarianism is that it is not necessary in this thread as this thread is AGAINST trinitarianism.....
If this thread is AGAINST Trinitarianism and my "defense of Trinitarianism is not necessary in this thread" then please explain what is this thread other than your puny attempt to crap on Christianity as a whole?

Are you that far into your CDS (Christianity Derangement Syndrome) that you need to open a thread with the unique scope of blaspheming against Jesus, God the Father, The Holy Spirit, The Mother of God, all the Saints and the Martyrs ancient and modern, all the main Traditional Christian Churches and a bunch of the Protestants ones?

So the whole idea of this thread is for you to not accept any other utterances from the others than that Jesus is not God. Basically this thread is your fight against the Son of God divinity against all the Christians that lived since the beginning until now that KNOW Jesus is God.
Is that it? This thread?

My, my, what a puny dictator you are! Tell me Peter, when you escaped mental hospital? Was it recently or a few decades ago?
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Old 03-19-2020, 01:48 PM
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I want to know who is pro Peter anti-Christian Thread?

Any anti-Christian around to defend Peter thread?
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Old 03-19-2020, 02:29 PM
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If this thread is AGAINST Trinitarianism and my "defense of Trinitarianism is not necessary in this thread" then please explain what is this thread other than your puny attempt to crap on Christianity as a whole?
Woah. There you go again, pretending a discussion against trinitarianism is against Christianity. So, indoctrinated are you.
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Old 03-19-2020, 02:30 PM
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So the whole idea of this thread is for you to not accept any other utterances from the others than that Jesus is not God.
You got it!

In a trial Cat, you have to let the other side talk. This thread is affords that opportunity.

It's very clear what this thread is about - discussing Scriptural evidence AGAINST the trinity.
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Old 03-19-2020, 03:00 PM
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Thank you for the perspective PeterEnergy
Rather than denomination, I should have asked about your Walk
Did my answer in Post #32 answer your question relative to my Walk?

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As a Trinitarian, I have nothing to say on this subject ... I have my beliefs
I believe in my Heart of Hearts that what I believe is True and Correct
I will never engage in a Bible debate again
Amen. What troubles me is proselytizing, trying to get others to change their beliefs. For me, it is about the questioning. We each have to come to our own answers.

This thread is not about conversation but putting out there the other side, the scripture verses against the trinity. In NO WAY, does this mean I am against God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit. However, if you ever ask yourself, why don't others believe as you, I hoped this thread would provide insight.

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In church, at university when I was a religious studies major, and as an autodidactic

Yet my core beliefs have not changed at all
Wow! I had to look up what an autodidactic was. It's fascinating to me that in your Walk, you developed a set of beliefs early and never wavered. Have a blessed day.
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