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Old 03-17-2020, 08:56 AM
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Default Scripture Verses Against Trinitarianism



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For the sake of brevity, this is not an exhaustive presentation. The 1st Commandment in Ex 20:3 does not use the "royal we" as is used in Genesis. The 1C is, "You shall have no other gods before me." Here is the unitarian foundation of the nature of God.

Jesus states upon his resurrection that he was given all authority. His hereditary power was not assumed or taken. If he is correct (which I believe him to be), that he was given this, there must have been another, a giver, who had all authority. Because the logic is inescapable I fully anticipate non-logic and contradictory answers, especially appeals to dualism. Trinitarianism holds Co-equal, Co-eternal, Consubstantial, fundamentally violating the 1C, specifically, its unitarian foundation.

While I admit there are Scripture passages that support the divinity of Jesus, this thread is about exploring those passages that indicate Jesus and God are not one in the same, verses against trinitarianism. As you know, I believe there are MANY more verses against against trinitarianism and those verses in favor of unitarianism are more powerful in explicit clarity and theological importance. 7 questions to begin the discussion of God is synonymous with "the Father," Jesus is synonymous with "the Son of God," and God is NOT synonymous with Jesus.

1. Why does the earliest Gospel, Mark open by calling Jesus the son rather than God incarnate? I submit that <the son of X> ≠ X. If Jesus were God incarnate, it would have been clearer to say so and dispense with all the "son of God" language.

2. If Jesus were God, who would be our mediator to God as 1 Timothy 2:5 says? The theological importance of Jesus NOT being God cannot be understated for it defeats his entire purpose of his Earthly ministry, to be our one and only mediator to God. <God's Anointed> ≠ God.

3. Who was pleased with Jesus in the final verse of chapter 2? (Other translations use the word "favor" and I trust there is need to quibble about the verb for the point of this thread is the subject, the noun. Who?) The text clearly does not say Jesus was pleased with himself.

4. The wording is a little odd but to who did Jesus ascend to in John 20:17? I can go out and I can go in but no one can move from themselves. You can move toward your neighbor or distance yourself. However, relative to yourself, movement does not affect distance. <Who X Ascends To> ≠ X.

Also, this passage clarifies that "Father" is synonymous with "God" (not the Son). John contradicts himself in his opening poetic chapter that trinitarians often rely.

5. In Matthew 24:36, is there equal knowledge or does God know more than Jesus? No one can know more or less than one knows. If {X>y}, then {X ≠y}.

6. Why is Jesus going to God in John 14:28? John can't help himself in contradicting himself again. 1 = 1. It cannot be that 1 > 1. Someone is greater than Jesus, so says Jesus. I'll take the words of Jesus over John.

7. Who raised Jesus in Acts 3:26? (Some translations say who was raised was his servant, others say his son Jesus.) Analogous to point 1, <the servant of X> cannot be X. In any event, the point is, Jesus did not raise himself.


1 This is the beginning of the good news of Jesus, the Anointed One, the Liberating King, the Son of God.
Mark 1:1

2 Because There is one God and one Mediator between God and us— the man Jesus, God’s Anointed
1 Timothy 2:5

3 Jesus became wise, and he grew strong. God was pleased with him and so were the people.
Luke 2:52 (CEV)

4 “Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
John 20:17 (NLT)

5 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
Matthew 24:36

6 I am going to be with the Father because He is far greater than I am.
John 14:28

7 So when God raised up His Servant
Acts 3:26 (VOICE)
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Old 03-17-2020, 09:11 AM
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Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"


Baptism is a reflection of the death, burial, and resurrection. Of the Three mentioned above, Jesus is the only One who died; was buried; and came back to life in the resurrection and yet we're to baptize Christian converts in the name of all three. Three is one (in this case).


John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


The above shows the paradox in that the Word was "with" God and "is" God. Two Persons ... same God.


I don't agree with the Catholics and Orthodox on a lot of issues but I don't believe they're wrong on ALL issues. I agree with the Trinitarian nature or reality of God.
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Old 03-17-2020, 09:26 AM
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Some people just want to demote Jesus to their condition. Jesus was Man yes, but He was/is God before becoming a Man. Some people just can't take this truth.
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Old 03-17-2020, 09:37 AM
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Some people just want to demote Jesus to their condition. Jesus was Man yes, but He was/is God before becoming a Man. Some people just can't take this truth.
John 1:14, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."


"The Word" is God.
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Old 03-17-2020, 09:46 AM
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AJ, if you want to start a thread on Scripture verses supporting 3 = 1, feel free to do so. If you want to discuss the topic of the OP, that would be great.
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Old 03-17-2020, 09:47 AM
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Some people just want to demote Jesus to their condition.
Post-modernism, presuming a station or conclusion NOT under discussion.

Some people want to violate the 1C. <Cricket. Cricket>
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Old 03-17-2020, 09:54 AM
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The 1C is, "You shall have no other gods before me."

Peter, you are denying the nature of God or this "me."

You are making God what you want Him to be for you not what He is. There is your proud mistake.
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Old 03-17-2020, 12:13 PM
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The 1C is, "You shall have no other gods before me."

Peter, you are denying the nature of God or this "me."

You are making God what you want Him to be for you not what He is. There is your proud mistake.
Projecting. Me ≠ Us.

Honestly, I do not want to debate your theology but discuss Scripture as noted in OP. If you don't want to do that, run along now.
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Old 03-17-2020, 12:42 PM
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Definition of "me" as in ActionJackson = Body, soul/mind, and spirit. All are "me." My body is not my mind and my soul is not my spirit and yet all these aspects of my existence make up "me."

Have you ever seen a prism? I know I've used this analogy before but it's a great visual representation of the topic at hand:

A single, white light shines in while three primary colors are emitted:





H2O is represented as: Ice (Solid), Water (Liquid), and Steam (Gas). All are H2O but present themselves in different forms.

So when God refers to Himself as "Me" He includes the Three Persons that make up the Godhead. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
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Old 03-17-2020, 01:04 PM
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Definition of "me" as in ActionJackson = Body, soul/mind, and spirit.
You remain a basic human unit.

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So when God refers to Himself as "Me" He includes the Three Persons that make up the Godhead. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
False. Me ≠ Godhead. If that were true, why did he use the plural form, 'in our image' in Genesis but the singular form, "me" for the 1C?

Rather than desperately try to hijack this thread to the very opposite of its intent, why don't you try honestly answering the 7 questions posed in the OP?
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Old 03-17-2020, 01:09 PM
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=PeterEnergy;20152042]You remain a basic human unit.
Quite true -- just as God (Father, Son, Spirit) remains God.



Quote:
False. Me ≠ Godhead. If that were true, why did he use the plural form, 'in our image' in Genesis but the singular form, "me" for the 1C?

Rather than desperately try to hijack this thread to the very opposite of its intent, why don't you try honestly answering the 7 questions posed in the OP?

You make the point. "Our image" is "me" for there is only one God so "our" includes the 3 Persons.
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Old 03-17-2020, 01:11 PM
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AJ, if you cannot stick to the OP, please stop posting. The purpose of this thread is NOT to support trinitarianism via scripture or assertion as you did above. Thanks.
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Old 03-17-2020, 01:19 PM
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AJ, if you cannot stick to the OP, please stop posting. The purpose of this thread is NOT to support trinitarianism via scripture or assertion as you did above. Thanks.
I'm directly addressing your erroneous assertions. If you're just looking for folks who agree with you then you need to start the post in this manner:

"I only want folks who agree with me to participate in this thread."

But since you clearly can't counter my arguments and since you have thinner skin that I thought ... I shall leave you to talk to yourself. Enjoy!!
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Old 03-17-2020, 01:34 PM
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AJ, if you cannot stick to the OP, please stop posting. The purpose of this thread is NOT to support trinitarianism via scripture or assertion as you did above. Thanks.
So whoever is not of your mind should get out of your OP... interesting idea of dialogue. So be it.
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Old 03-17-2020, 02:24 PM
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So whoever is not of your mind should get out of your OP... interesting idea of dialogue. So be it.
The means of dialogue is by answering the questions in the OP, not hijacking the thread.

A hot topic currently is the coronavirus. They don't even like comparisons to the flu or comments suggesting it is not as bad as the media is hyping. Saying the coronavirus is fake would be heresy, if not antithetical to the purpose of creating threads about it.

Why don't you honestly answer the 7 questions in the OP? Fear your theology cannot be scrutiny even to ADMIT there are Scripture verses against trinitarianism?


for us there is but one God, the Father ...
1 Cor 8:6
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Old 03-17-2020, 02:56 PM
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PE, I do agree with AJ and Cat and see this issue much in the same way they do.

But I wanted to congratulate you on an excellent thread with a clear, logical argument of your position on this very difficult subject.

How could anyone blame you for asking good and honest questions (your opening OP)? I look forward to reading and learning from this thread.

Thanks for taking the time and your honesty on this complex subject!
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Old 03-17-2020, 03:23 PM
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Why don't you honestly answer the 7 questions in the OP? Fear your theology cannot be scrutiny even to ADMIT there are Scripture verses against trinitarianism?
There are Scripture verses against anything or pro anything. That is where the Holy Spirit intervenes (through His Church) to present to us the correct interpretation of all of this. We can go round and round forever if we stay with what it appears to us as correct at one point in time or another.

AJ presented to you 2 verses I quoted to you time and time again. You chose to ignore them all the time (who cannot support scrutiny?). We seem them as more revealing to the morphology of God (Godhead) than the 1C verses.
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Old 03-17-2020, 04:41 PM
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[B]There are Scripture verses against anything or pro anything.
We are not talking about "anything" in this thread. Is this your way of admitting there are Scripture Verses Against Trinitarianism?

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AJ presented to you 2 verses I quoted to you time and time again. You chose to ignore them all the time
Untrue. I am not ignoring them. I just see them as far less significant than other verses in magnitude and direction, which I already addressed in the OP.

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While I admit there are Scripture passages that support the divinity of Jesus, this thread is about exploring those passages that indicate Jesus and God are not one in the same, verses against trinitarianism. As you know, I believe there are MANY more verses against against trinitarianism and those verses in favor of unitarianism are more powerful in explicit clarity and theological importance. 7 questions to begin the discussion of God is synonymous with "the Father," Jesus is synonymous with "the Son of God," and God is NOT synonymous with Jesus.
Typical for you to not answer questions.
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Old 03-17-2020, 04:45 PM
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For the sake of brevity,
In the words of Jose Yero, "Other people negotiate money, go/no-go, yes/no, maybe-so. Not me...".

For the sake of brevity sir, the answer to all seven of your questions [and the next seven, and all the rest] are contained within the text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. Look it up and read it twice. Then repeat as necessary.

Need further clarification? Become an Orthodox catecheumen. Full understanding though, requires one to submit oneself to the Christian Life. There is no substitute for direct experience.
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Old 03-17-2020, 04:52 PM
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the answer to all seven of your questions [and the next seven, and all the rest] are contained within the text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.
Just another troll refusing to answer specific questions.

HINT: I do not base my life on the philosophies of (other) men, like the Creed.
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