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Old 03-14-2020, 07:47 AM
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Default Did Mary Deliver John (Midwife for Elizabeth)?



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Came across this today. With all the recent talk about Mary recently, these passages jumped off the page. Isn't it obvious that Mary delivered John? In our day saying certain things may not be considered polite, like what you do when you take your child to the bathroom. Perhaps it was understood in that culture why Mary visited her cousin but stating so was impolite.

This says no but admits the text is not conclusive. Ambrose says that was the purpose of her trip, which makes all the sense in the world.


Your relative Elizabeth is also going to have a son, even though she is old. No one thought she could ever have a baby, but in three months she will have a son.

Mary stayed with Elizabeth about three months. Then she went back home.

Luke 1:36, 56
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Old 03-14-2020, 07:58 AM
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It's highly likely that she stayed with her for the duration. After all, if she was at six months, and she stayed for three, it's highly unlikely that she left a week before the baby was born.

It's also highly speculative, and highly unlikely, that she played any role in the delivery of the baby.
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Old 03-14-2020, 09:56 AM
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It's also highly speculative, and highly unlikely, that she played any role in the delivery of the baby.
Highly speculative and highly unlikely? The Bible gives no indication of anyone else there to help Elizabeth give birth.

I find the idea that a young, pregnant woman (Mary) visiting her cousin for 3 months until full term would NOT play any role in the delivery of the baby. Most women I know are all into that sort of thing. Back then, there were not hospitals like now.

So, what is your theory for Mary's timely visit if NOT to play any role in the delivery of the baby? Just a Biblical coincidence?
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Old 03-14-2020, 10:30 AM
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Highly speculative and highly unlikely? The Bible gives no indication of anyone else there to help Elizabeth give birth.

I find the idea that a young, pregnant woman (Mary) visiting her cousin for 3 months until full term would NOT play any role in the delivery of the baby. Most women I know are all into that sort of thing. Back then, there were not hospitals like now.

So, what is your theory for Mary's timely visit if NOT to play any role in the delivery of the baby? Just a Biblical coincidence?
Moral support from family. Happens all the time, even today. Official midwifery is documented in the Bible as early as Exodus 1. They didn't forget how to do that in the intervening 2000 years. It's much more likely that someone with formal training in this assisted Elizabeth than a pregnant, teenage Mary.

Quit adding your own opinions to scripture.

Have you every tried to deliver a baby? I've delivered ten of them. It's not the most complicated thing in medicine, but it's not something that staying at a Holiday Inn Express last night prepares you for.
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Old 03-14-2020, 12:56 PM
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Moral support from family. ... It's much more likely that someone with formal training in this assisted Elizabeth than a pregnant, teenage Mary..
I agree that it is much more likely that someone with formal training in this assisted Elizabeth than a pregnant IN ADDITION TO a teenage Mary.
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Old 03-14-2020, 01:06 PM
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I agree that it is much more likely that someone with formal training in this assisted Elizabeth than a pregnant IN ADDITION TO a teenage Mary.

I agree completely.

Especially as she was quite advanced in age.
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Old 03-14-2020, 01:29 PM
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Those who have never given birth are never asked to be midwives unless they have good training. If no trained midwife is available it's always someone who's had several of their own who get tapped, just because... been there done that. Young soon-to-be mothers can be asked to hang around and fetch hot water or towels just so they see how it's going to be done.
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Old 03-14-2020, 01:37 PM
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I agree that it is much more likely that someone with formal training in this assisted Elizabeth than a pregnant IN ADDITION TO a teenage Mary.
Your original assertion which you seem to be backing away from once confronted with the evidence from Exodus was "Isn't it obvious that Mary delivered John?"

Now we're down to Mary being the waterboy for the midwife.

Yet another example of Sola Scriptura becoming Solo Scriptura.
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Old 03-14-2020, 02:42 PM
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Saint Ambrose was a fine young man. He was a contemporary of Blessed Augustine and therefore not available to attend the birth of John the Forerunner of the Jesus. That said, the following is obvious. Nothing more. Nothing less.

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Your relative Elizabeth is also going to have a son, even though she is old. No one thought she could ever have a baby, but in three months she will have a son.

Mary stayed with Elizabeth about three months. Then she went back home.

Luke 1:36, 56
It is certainly that Mary could have been in attendance at the birth of John. Since scripture and tradition are both silent on the particular detail in question, I see no value in speculating on the matter.

Do you?
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Old 03-14-2020, 03:12 PM
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If she did or if she didn’t, what difference does it make now?
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Old 03-14-2020, 03:16 PM
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Since scripture and tradition are both silent on the particular detail in question, I see no value in speculating on the matter.

Do you?
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If she did or if she didn’t, what difference does it make now?
I didn't know we had a couple of Hillary's on SB. If you find this thread of no value, there is no requirement to post in it.

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Old 03-14-2020, 05:46 PM
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.Since scripture and tradition are both silent on the particular detail in question, I see no value in speculating on the matter.

Do you?
This exactly.
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Old 03-15-2020, 04:00 AM
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I didn't know we had a couple of Hillary's on SB. If you find this thread of no value, there is no requirement to post in it.
Very well. What am I missing here? What is the potential value of resolving this matter, one way or the other?

On a side note, I offered my VOTE to Hillary on the condition that she wore a white tennis outfit in her debate with Trump. If my memory serves, she appeared in the standard issue Mao-era pantsuit, sensible shoes and the rest, as they say, is history.
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Old 03-15-2020, 10:10 AM
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Very well. What am I missing here? What is the potential value of resolving this matter, one way or the other?
Why are you obstructing this thread? Why not let people who want to discuss it, discuss it without having to justify themselves to you?

Every thread could be responded with the maniacal, "What is the potential value of resolving this matter, one way or the other?"

To answer your question, the answer is Understanding.

The topic has nothing to do with salvation but humanizes the characters and possible insight into the profound symmetry of the almighty. John paved the way for Jesus and it seems very likely that Mary paved the way for John, so to speak. The angels prepared the way for both of them.

The hostility at the thought that Mary stayed with Elizabeth for her 3rd trimester and did NOT immediately head for the door when her water broke is disappointing, especially in light of other threads claiming she married God. "What is the potential value of resolving that matter, one way or the other?"
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Old 03-15-2020, 10:55 AM
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Then go ahead and brief out your most convincing theory.

I have no hostility toward the thought in and of itself. Certainly nothing that rises to the level of heresy or even heterodoxy. But better men than you and I have fallen victim to both of these theological infections though this sort of rationalist speculation.

Ever heard of Augustine of Hippo? Thomas Aquinas? The RC dogma on Original Sin? Immaculate Conception? Papal Infallibility? Speculative theology is not an innocent parlor game. It's a nasty addiction.

Proceed, if you must.
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Old 03-15-2020, 11:32 AM
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Come on Peter, Hillary is that really the best you can do?
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Old 03-15-2020, 01:48 PM
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Then go ahead and brief out your most convincing theory.

I have no hostility toward the thought in and of itself. Certainly nothing that rises to the level of heresy or even heterodoxy. But better men than you and I have fallen victim to both of these theological infections though this sort of rationalist speculation.

Ever heard of Augustine of Hippo? Thomas Aquinas? The RC dogma on Original Sin? Immaculate Conception? Papal Infallibility? Speculative theology is not an innocent parlor game. It's a nasty addiction.

Proceed, if you must.

Yet an “addiction” for well over a billion people of which I am one. Yes, I am happily addicted to the Church Jesus founded, the Church from which the Orthodox and then the Protestants left.
It gets positively boring to listen to the diatribes hurled at the RCC. Yet when I constantly bring up, which continue to this day, the appearances and miraculous healings, Eucharistic Miracles, Saints like Padre Pio, Faustina and Bernadette, the well documented Miracle of the Sun at Fatima and the halting of child sacrifices of the Mayan culture with millions of conversions at Mt. Tabor among countless other blessings of Jesus....no one responds. Because you have only two real choices. Either deny that any of these things happened (with zero rational argument to give in support of that position), or accept the fact that Jesus is continuing to watch over His Church, the Church He founded, even with all its warts and mistakes.

I have no animosity towards anyone. I continue to pray that Jesus extends His Love to everyone and allows them to see and understand His continuing interaction with His Church. May He decrease our hate and increase our humility.

God, please bless us all.
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Old 03-15-2020, 01:51 PM
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And back to the OP, sure it’s speculation, but an educated one. Why is Scripture specific as to the sixth months of pregnancy, and then the stay by Mary for 3 months?
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Old 03-15-2020, 03:21 PM
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Yet an “addiction” for well over a billion people of which I am one. Yes, I am happily addicted to the Church Jesus founded, the Church from which the Orthodox and then the Protestants left.

God, please bless us all.
No diatribe intended and as a former RC, I fully understand your boredom.

Recent converts to the papacy would do well to dedicate more time learning the history of its theological developments rather than boasting of their own addictions to them. As long as we draw breath in this life, there is still time to repent. Just saying.

Despite what may be the current RC teaching on the matter, most agree that the proto-protestant was Martin Luther, an ordained RC priest and Augustinian monk. He was not an Orthodox Christian at any point during his earthly life. Indeed, he took Latin Papalism its next level: protestantism.

The Orthodox Church, in accordance with the love for man which characterizes her, permits prayer for those who have cut themselves off from her, i.e. for heretics and schismatics. But prayers in what regard? Prayers that they convert to the Orthodox Faith before the end of their lives.

"Illumine with the light of grace all apostates from the Orthodox Faith, and those blinded by pernicious heresies, and draw them to Thyself, and unite them to Thy Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Church."

Kyrie Eleison.
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Old 03-15-2020, 05:46 PM
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Come on Peter, Hillary is that really the best you can do?
Yup. That's about it.

Do you have a better rejoinder that I could learn from?
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