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Old 12-24-2017, 07:16 PM
Robert. Robert. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
Excellent post. Exactly what I was hoping for.

It looks like night will be my SOP...for the last five or six years I have been very nocturnal. Usually awake until after dawn, usually asleep until 3-5 in the afternoon. I'm very used to being up at those hours, usually only feel fully awake when it gets dark outside.

I am never without a headlamp however. I actually wore one so much I gave myself some facial nerve problems from the headband. I need to practice some walks without it.
I agree that Astronomy's post was very good.

Recently I was thinking about what if I had to travel undetected and I thought this: I would travel the woods during the day as to avoid being spotted or ambushed by night vision or thermal detection. You might say this does not make sense but since I don't own any night vision then at least I would be on an even playing field having the same day vision as anyone else, but I would be moving slow and quiet in day time in the woods with the goal of staying undetected. Possibly crossing open areas at dusk or dawn only (good points mentioned here). But again this was my thought and is offered up for debate. But I do agree with what Astronomy's post pointed out that a situation might or will dictate how and when you have to move.
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Old 12-24-2017, 09:03 PM
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Robert. & Aerindel: You are both on the right track. There is no either or. Travel by day... or night... as the security situation, weather, and terrain dictates (and your best estimate affords). Woodlands, providing thick concealment, may be ideal for moving through by day. Open country might be better by darkness. Or suburban streets between midnight and the gray of dawn. There's no right answer, only your particular circumstance.

You make your best guess for the time and place... then run with it.

I used to teach the guys on my ODAs: "Stay flexible, like Gumby's (piece of male anatomy) on a hot afternoon..."
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Old 12-26-2017, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert. View Post
I agree that Astronomy's post was very good.

Recently I was thinking about what if I had to travel undetected and I thought this: I would travel the woods during the day as to avoid being spotted or ambushed by night vision or thermal detection. You might say this does not make sense but since I don't own any night vision then at least I would be on an even playing field having the same day vision as anyone else, but I would be moving slow and quiet in day time in the woods with the goal of staying undetected. Possibly crossing open areas at dusk or dawn only (good points mentioned here). But again this was my thought and is offered up for debate. But I do agree with what Astronomy's post pointed out that a situation might or will dictate how and when you have to move.
You clearly GET IT!

The assumption has to be they have more capability than you, don't make the mistake of underestimating your opposition. In the daylight hours, your eyes and if you have one a terrain map are your best friends.

Some might want to take a look at the Sniper and E&E schools and training. They teach you to to move in the daylight hours because its when you have the advantage of picking your route, cover and concealment opportunities. At night you can see where you want to go, but the bad guys can watch you like a mother watching her baby.

Since the question is when and how to move undetected it implies this is not a Hillary walk thru the woods, but rather its a movement to a location and even if you know the route like you know the back of your hands, your are traveling sans any visible light and unless you happen to own a night vision device that is total passive, meaning it only uses the available ambient light and does not produce a signature then you have no idea where you are going and what you may face enroute. Some of the night vision devices I have used that are passive see both visible and Infrared light. Some have an unclassified range of 3000 m, that is over 1 mile away at night!

While I know my ranch like the back of my hand I would not head out across it without a light source, but if needed to move in a post SHTF situation I would need a terrain map to take my best route out even tho I know what route that is, I will need a pace count, compass and map to move.

Day/Night training in Map Reading and E&E is done in teams of 3:

Lead guy is the brush breaker, usually the tallest and biggest guy

#2 is compass man, he is bent over using your butt pack as his compass table, he is usually the smallest guy

#3 is the pace counter and map/time man

We train about a 6 hour E&E and instruct the teams to rotate position every 2 hr so everyone is cross trained.

In night/day E&E leg one is a straight line azimuth to a tree. We place on the tree, the straight line azimuth instructions to get to the next tree and then the straight line azimuth extract point.

The map reading block of instruction is done both day and night and unobserved, just the trucks waiting at the extract point. The E&E is done observed in the day time so it forces you to take the straight line azimuth and build your own route using terrain features to stay hidden.

This is why I travel in the daylight hrs from dawn to dusk.
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:24 AM
sixtus sixtus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 17Oaks View Post
The situation was given: "Post SHTF"
Post-SHTF is not a specific situation. You don't think disaster/bugout where you need to move fast might vary from civil strife, urban warfare, hostile occupation where planned moves including at night may make more sense? Again why a lot of organisations, groups, refugees, and individuals use moves at night, period.

Again its not just a yes/no situation.

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If I have to travel I make the assumption I can be seen and if I am in a travel mode I do not want to pose a threat by donning full battle rattle and or carrying a AK...yea that's just me, lot folks have tried to kill me and every single one had an AK in there hand and I am posting and some of them that tried are not.
"A lot of guys trying to kill you with AK's" I assume you allude to military service. A strange army where no one covered the advantages of night ops during any stage of your career
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtus View Post
No post-SHTF is not a specific situation, it varies infinitely. From disaster/bugout where you need to move fast to civil strife, invasion, lockdowns where planned moves including at night, may make more sense. Again why a lot of organisations, groups, refugees, and individuals use moves at night, period.



I get the picture now.

"A lot of guys trying to kill you with AK's" I assume you allude to military service.

In which no one covered the advantages of night ops when applicable during any stage of your career
YEA, You got a problem with that, well do ya?

Read my previous post

You don't get it!
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:51 AM
богдан богдан is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtus View Post
Post-SHTF is not a specific situation. You don't think disaster/bugout where you need to move fast might vary from civil strife, urban warfare, hostile occupation where planned moves including at night may make more sense? Again why a lot of organisations, groups, refugees, and individuals use moves at night, period.

Again its not just a yes/no situation.



"A lot of guys trying to kill you with AK's" I assume you allude to military service. A strange army where no one covered the advantages of night ops during any stage of your career
the ops stated hes worried abour a civil war
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Old 12-26-2017, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by богдан View Post
the ops stated hes worried abour a civil war
Not as the specific situation, just that I donít agree with saying it wonít be a war zone, our communities turning into war zones is one of the things prepping is all about IMO.
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Old 12-27-2017, 02:53 AM
rmaples rmaples is offline
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All I know is that when I was in the Corps they taught us to snoop and poop during the darkest part of the night. To this day I still love to sneak up on campsites while the campers are still awake and see if I can get a description of everyone in the camp and then get back to my camp without being spotted. Some people don't like the dark, but I love the night. In the Corps. every time I had to stand watch or go out on patrol I always took the night duty, which was easy because no one else wanted it.
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Old 12-27-2017, 04:54 AM
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If there is a curfew, obey the curfew. You do not want to get a reputation as a troublemaker/problem person (or worse) with whatever authorities are enforcing it. Also, when SHTF, civilians in some places have enforced what is essentially a curfew in their neighborhood. Sometimes publicized/posted and/or coordinated with authorities/neighboring areas, and sometimes not.

If you move around in a small town/village/some neighborhoods late at night, regardless of whether urban or rural area, if the police/military/civilians patrolling the area are worth a ****, you will be seen and you will be contacted. Especially if you are not known/do not belong there. There are three possible outcomes: turned around and sent on your way, detained/arrested, or killed. The pleasantness or unpleasantness of any encounter will depend, at least in part, upon your attitude and cooperativeness.
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Old 12-27-2017, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 17Oaks View Post
You stated the NUMBER 1 reason WHY you don't travel at night. Tech today means there is no hiding in the bush.

Some years ago the Army sent me to to work with a company that was under contract to develop night vision devices. This was highly classified so I will provide but one comment.

In the testing phase could see you and tell what brand of cigarettes you were smoking. How far away? LONG, very long.

I can only imagine TODAY what capabilities are out there either in use or awaiting war to pull it out.

As for what time your travel? DAY! A lone man does not pose a major threat, you could be anything form some bozo lost or some guy trying to find food or water...let me suggest you leave your AK and full battle rattle behind, look like a threat, you become a threat!!!!! Under almost ANY scenario that will force me and others to leave to go to a BOL, if seen and you look like a threat you can guess what happens next...
But is that the same for every set of nvgs? If not then how many ppl can realistically afford them?
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Old 12-27-2017, 12:04 PM
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When do animals go out foraging/scouting/hunting . . . why? Think like the animal you need to be for the circumstance you need to fulfill.
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Old 12-27-2017, 12:21 PM
mrstang01 mrstang01 is offline
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I'd like to read those observations if possible. Can you post them here with a link please?

Michael

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Originally Posted by led4 View Post
I watched the Ferguson rioting in '14/'15 with particular interest on how the rioters behaved and how LEO responded. There were many things I picked up on. I posted those observations on another site. This in particular would relate to your question:

While the protests were loud and unruly in the evenings the worst of the violence (Looting and arson and at least 1 murder) started around 1am. By daylight and most of the rest of the morning there were no protesters on the street. This may be useful if someone had to travel through an area of unrest.
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Old 12-31-2017, 07:02 PM
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I vote anywhere between 4am and 7am. By 7am people are just starting to stir. I noticed this in campgrounds. I would also add during extreme weather conditions while others are just seeking shelter would be another good time to operate.
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Old 01-03-2018, 10:30 AM
led4 led4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrstang01 View Post
I'd like to read those observations if possible. Can you post them here with a link please?

Michael
OK, here you go, in the Urban Survival forum:

https://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...0#post17195330
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Old 02-02-2018, 11:30 PM
Chevy762x39 Chevy762x39 is offline
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My plans are a thermal monocular and travel at night, I hope to have a solar charger that I can charge the batteries for the thermal off of. Id do my best to find a place to sleep before day break, cook my food quick, then keep a look out until about 12 noon. sleep for about 6 hours or less, get up and keep it moving. I have also ordered perimeter alarms from Ebay that Id have set up in whatever area I choose to rest. They set off a 209 primer. LOUD!!
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Old 04-10-2018, 11:35 AM
Katiecoupon13 Katiecoupon13 is offline
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Defitnitly think like others have said it's situational..and depends on many factors..
I'd probably move when most ppl were asleep if danger was possible early am hours...
Hx channel did a show last night on this from Vietnam I believe where gis learned to travel early dawn when enemy was sleep and when u had to hold up like someone above mentioned the tin cans rocks and line to create a noise if someone approached was used as alert system.
History is really something to learn from.
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Old 04-10-2018, 12:11 PM
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THINK of the direction you will be traveling in and then plan accordingly so the sun is to your back. Anyone looking for you will be looking into the sun, can't do that for long.

Otherwise it depends on your night vision (your own or enhanced)

ME, I have always been a night stalker. I am very comfortable in the dark and even now my hearing is acute and night vision is excellent (must be working all those years of night shifts.)

NEVER fear the night... FEAR what hunts in the night.
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Old 04-10-2018, 08:18 PM
Steve_In_29 Steve_In_29 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
THINK of the direction you will be traveling in and then plan accordingly so the sun is to your back. Anyone looking for you will be looking into the sun, can't do that for long.

Otherwise it depends on your night vision (your own or enhanced)

ME, I have always been a night stalker. I am very comfortable in the dark and even now my hearing is acute and night vision is excellent (must be working all those years of night shifts.)

NEVER fear the night... FEAR what hunts in the night.
Unless they are stalking you from behind. In which case you are perfectly illuminated and they are the ones hidden.

As others have said it varies by the situation.
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Old 04-10-2018, 08:21 PM
Steve_In_29 Steve_In_29 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevy762x39 View Post
My plans are a thermal monocular and travel at night, I hope to have a solar charger that I can charge the batteries for the thermal off of. Id do my best to find a place to sleep before day break, cook my food quick, then keep a look out until about 12 noon. sleep for about 6 hours or less, get up and keep it moving. I have also ordered perimeter alarms from Ebay that Id have set up in whatever area I choose to rest. They set off a 209 primer. LOUD!!
Problem with that is now whoever set it off knows there is something/someone in the area as well. A preferable alarm would alert you without simultaneously alerting the others.
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Old 04-10-2018, 08:31 PM
Steve_In_29 Steve_In_29 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 17Oaks View Post
You stated the NUMBER 1 reason WHY you don't travel at night. Tech today means there is no hiding in the bush.

Some years ago the Army sent me to to work with a company that was under contract to develop night vision devices. This was highly classified so I will provide but one comment.

In the testing phase could see you and tell what brand of cigarettes you were smoking. How war away? LONG, very long.

I can only imagine TODAY what capabilities are out there either in use or awaiting war to pull it out.

As for what time your travel? DAY! A lone man does not pose a major threat, you could be anything form some bozo lost or some guy trying to find food or water...let me suggest you leave your AK and full battle rattle behind, look like a threat, you become a threat!!!!! Under almost ANY scenario that will force me and others to leave to go to a BOL, if seen and you look like a threat you can guess what happens next...
While I don't doubt there is some super secret HIGHLY specialized version of NVGs out there that MIGHT be able to do what you say. The VAST majority of today's Military and LE are still (at best) using Gen3+ systems (Gen4 was downgraded to 3+). Even the night sights on an M1A2 tank or SABER (replacement for TOW) anti-tank missle aren't up to what you claim.
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