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Old 12-22-2017, 05:59 AM
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This is something that I keep thinking about from time to time and I've never been able to come up with a clear answer.

Post SHTF, IF you find yourself having to travel is there a certain time of day that is objectively better to do it in?

Say your getting home, or out foraging, or maybe just scouting to gather info.

What time of day do you travel and what time do you hole up?

Move at night and your harder to see....but of course that works both ways. Much easier to get lost, run into an ambush and harder to find whatever you are looking for. If you have to use a flashlight or headlights you become visible for miles around. It also seems your more likely to get shot on sight at night than the day by other travelers.

During the day your easy to spot, far more people are awake and moving around, but you can also see them further out, navigate better, search for supplies and out past a half mile or so your invisible to the naked eye. You could drive though an area and maybe you would be heard but you wouldn't show up for miles away like you would at night with headlights.

And what about sleep? Sleep during the day and you can just hole up during the time when most other people are active so perhaps be harder to find...sleep at night though and there would be less chance of someone stumbling on your camp.

Or you could go crepuscular, move only at dawn and or dusk...some natural light but still lots of shadows..but only a couple narrow windows a day.

Obviously there are a ton of factors that could go into deciding what time of day to be active but are there any general rules about movement timing that someone could put in their SOP to help figure this out? Is it better to be able to see or to not be seen?
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Old 12-22-2017, 08:10 AM
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I've got 3rd gen.
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Old 12-22-2017, 08:48 AM
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I would say early morning is best. The neredowells that were out partying/plundering all night will likely hole up and sleep when the sun begins to rise (as do many that stayed up all night trying to protect against looters).

Plus in hotter climates it is much easier to travel in the morning.
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Old 12-22-2017, 10:40 AM
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It is highly situation specific. Analyze what the goal is that particular time, taking into account weather, number of people and type in the area, likelihood of overt and covert surveillance by individuals or the government with high tech gear and/or drones, your specific skills, availability of your own high tech gear, the type of stealth clothing you have available, the amount of time available or allotted. There are other things too that will come into play that I have no way of knowing. Evaluate them all, and decide what the best course of action is for that situation.

You can do some brainstorming now, considering all of the above, and come up with at least some preliminary plans on what to do under the different conditions. Then, when the time comes, you can fine tune the appropriate pre-planned response.

Another case of no one single selection is suitable for all, or even most situations.

Just my opinion.
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:01 AM
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Assuming societal sleep/wake patterns stay generally similar to what the are now, +1 for early morning. Can you imagine how long it's going to take most people to adjust to waking up without a cup of coffee? 8-) If you can adjust faster (or you have a good stash of coffee) you can leverage that as an edge in your movements.
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:26 AM
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4am, back home by 7am
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Old 12-22-2017, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
This is something that I keep thinking about from time to time and I've never been able to come up with a clear answer.

Post SHTF, IF you find yourself having to travel is there a certain time of day that is objectively better to do it in?

Say your getting home, or out foraging, or maybe just scouting to gather info.

What time of day do you travel and what time do you hole up?

Move at night and your harder to see....but of course that works both ways. Much easier to get lost, run into an ambush and harder to find whatever you are looking for. If you have to use a flashlight or headlights you become visible for miles around. It also seems your more likely to get shot on sight at night than the day by other travelers.

During the day your easy to spot, far more people are awake and moving around, but you can also see them further out, navigate better, search for supplies and out past a half mile or so your invisible to the naked eye. You could drive though an area and maybe you would be heard but you wouldn't show up for miles away like you would at night with headlights.

And what about sleep? Sleep during the day and you can just hole up during the time when most other people are active so perhaps be harder to find...sleep at night though and there would be less chance of someone stumbling on your camp.

Or you could go crepuscular, move only at dawn and or dusk...some natural light but still lots of shadows..but only a couple narrow windows a day.

Obviously there are a ton of factors that could go into deciding what time of day to be active but are there any general rules about movement timing that someone could put in their SOP to help figure this out? Is it better to be able to see or to not be seen?
I think your way over thinking things............


that said I doubt conditions will be like trying to E&E your way 300 miles to friendly lines.

but if its simple land navigation moving at night is not really that big a deal, bust out a compass check your grid. shoot an azmuth and go for a stroll.

I would honestly be much more worried about breaking a leg stepping in a hole than ambushes getting lost or whatever.


foraging is best done during the day. without night vision hunting is difficult in low light. two youd hate to mistake mushroom A that's edible for mushroom B that's not.



honestly though I think your inserting way too much military crap into things.
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:06 PM
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Since it won't be a war zone, when ever you feel like it.
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:38 PM
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dawn and dusk are the times where you are hardest to be seen. For any lengthy travel, travel at night. You should already have everything mapped out, so getting lost shouldn't even be in the equation. If you walk, hug the tree lines so you can dart into the woods if you spot people. It's better to be a master at evading and hiding than anything else. Wear neutral clothing, don't wear black. Black can be seen at night despite what people think. Medium to dark gray is better than black. Learn to walk silently and remember that the fuller the moon, the easier you are to spot.
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:46 PM
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If you are in a bad part of town.....5:00 AM to about 8:00 AM...bad guys are sleeping.
If you are rural....... 8:00PM to 3:00 AM good folks go to bed early.
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:57 PM
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I watched the Ferguson rioting in '14/'15 with particular interest on how the rioters behaved and how LEO responded. There were many things I picked up on. I posted those observations on another site. This in particular would relate to your question:

While the protests were loud and unruly in the evenings the worst of the violence (Looting and arson and at least 1 murder) started around 1am. By daylight and most of the rest of the morning there were no protesters on the street. This may be useful if someone had to travel through an area of unrest.
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Old 12-22-2017, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Since it won't be a war zone, when ever you feel like it.
I actually I view civil war as the most likely SHTF scenario, but that is besides the point.

Quote:
While the protests were loud and unruly in the evenings the worst of the violence (Looting and arson and at least 1 murder) started around 1am. By daylight and most of the rest of the morning there were no protesters on the street. This may be useful if someone had to travel through an area of unrest.
Interesting.

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I would honestly be much more worried about breaking a leg stepping in a hole than ambushes getting lost or whatever.
Indeed. That is one of the main worries. Also, traveling at night without a headlamp is slooooww as you end up feeling out every step.

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You can do some brainstorming now, considering all of the above, and come up with at least some preliminary plans on what to do under the different conditions. Then, when the time comes, you can fine tune the appropriate pre-planned response.
Exactly.
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Old 12-23-2017, 06:08 AM
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I'm up @ 4:30 am most every day, I live on the side of a major hi way very little traffic on the rd. till around 6:30 am on weekdays and 8:00 am weekends.
When I lived in a neighborhood no lights on at homes close by till 7:00 am or so.
So at least around here early AM is best for travel.
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Old 12-23-2017, 06:22 AM
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I'm up until 7AM most days.

Perhaps this why I am trying to gather information from normal people as I have no real connection myself to the normal times of day to do anything.

Quote:
The transition between dark and light confuses the eye. One of the reasons dawn and dusk are the best time to hunt and fish.
But...does that also mean its one of the worst times to be out if your a prey animal?
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Old 12-23-2017, 07:41 AM
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Moving around at night, without light is in itself dangerous. Especially in a disaster area. Trip hazards, getting lost, flood waters, being mistaken for looters etc.

So to do it there would have to be a greater threat during daylight hours to make it a worthwhile risk.

Real life examples are probably limited to warzones where the risk of being seen and shot are greater than the physical risks of walking around in the dark.

Even with the threat of increased criminal activity places like New Orleans post Katrina were probably safer to move around during the day than at night due to the overwhelming damage to the urban environment.
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Old 12-23-2017, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
I actually I view civil war as the most likely SHTF scenario, but that is besides the point.



Interesting.



Indeed. That is one of the main worries. Also, traveling at night without a headlamp is slooooww as you end up feeling out every step.



Exactly.
If thats your worry you need totravel during the day.
If your in a conflict zone there will be a curfew. And you and yours rosming about at night will be treated as spies or an enemy patroll.
Wear white. And walk around in daylight
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Old 12-23-2017, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by богдан View Post
If thats your worry you need totravel during the day.
If your in a conflict zone there will be a curfew.
Was replying when I saw your comment and Apok's on being mistaken for looters. Just my .02 along those lines.

In almost all disasters and civil disturbances a curfew is imposed by civil authorities, a strict shelter-in-place order or dusk til dawn curfew, and the duration is often "until further notice". Depending on the nature of the event and how widespread it is, a city, town, or county may enact their own travel restrictions which could differ from those of neighboring communities. Given the chaos that generally follows cataclysm, and particularly if communications are disrupted (TV/cable, radio, cell, internet), there's likely to be a lot of confusion and misinformation. Some could mistakenly believe a mayor's curfew for a city or town applies to the entire county, some might hear radio broadcasts from neighboring counties and believe that set of restrictions applies to their area. Some might get incorrect or incomplete information via word-of-mouth. Some could hear nothing official, or conflicting information, and just decide their own common sense rules or "reasonable person" standard is in effect.

Just mention this because curfews or travel restrictions are so universal following any emergency declaration (or 'martial law' if you prefer) that it's safe to assume nearly everyone is going to believe one is in effect even if not officially announced or widely disseminated, or if the specifics of it are unknown or unclear. Then it just becomes a question of what happens next if a traveller is detected or observed and deemed to be violating the curfew/travel restrictions by someone else. What's your rules of engagement as defender(s) at your home/BOL/AO for example? General order 11 as you were instructed in the military, criminals should be shot on sight, try to remain hidden and hope the travellers pass by peacefully?

If no one observes or detects the travellers, scouting party, curfew violators, or whatever term is used - then the OP question is moot. If you're in the role of the traveller then it's important to consider how your actions (in total, including the time of day) might be perceived if observed or detected.
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Old 12-23-2017, 09:37 AM
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Jerry listed many good points and is right on. Location and situations will dictate what and how you do things. Are you only trying to get back home? Are you scavenging because of SHTF? Are there a lot of people moving in the same area? Do you have some one traveling or scavenging with you? Are you armed? Is there gun fire in the area? So many questions and I just listed a very few.

I have fishing line in my bags. A few cans and some stones I can make a quick hard to see alarm system around where I am stopping to rest or hold up. A few seconds warning may make a big difference.

It can be complicated and change quickly. Have a plan if you are able. Reacting to force can be difficult. Being able to escape and evade is better if you can.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry D Young View Post
It is highly situation specific. Analyze what the goal is that particular time, taking into account weather, number of people and type in the area, likelihood of overt and covert surveillance by individuals or the government with high tech gear and/or drones, your specific skills, availability of your own high tech gear, the type of stealth clothing you have available, the amount of time available or allotted. There are other things too that will come into play that I have no way of knowing. Evaluate them all, and decide what the best course of action is for that situation.

You can do some brainstorming now, considering all of the above, and come up with at least some preliminary plans on what to do under the different conditions. Then, when the time comes, you can fine tune the appropriate pre-planned response.

Another case of no one single selection is suitable for all, or even most situations.

Just my opinion.
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Old 12-23-2017, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
I actually I view civil war as the most likely SHTF scenario, but that is besides the point.
That's not besides the point, it's critically important for anyone to actually answer your question. I just responded to another thread about a totally different subject where the term "SHTF" was used. You have to define what you mean when you use that acronym. If civil war is what you mean by "SHTF", the answer to your question is going to be drastically different than it would be if "SHTF" means a tornado came through town.
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Old 12-23-2017, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
You have to define what you mean when you use that acronym.
It seems like if we did that half of every post would just end up being each person describing their definition.

Quote:
Jerry listed many good points and is right on. Location and situations will dictate what and how you do things. Are you only trying to get back home? Are you scavenging because of SHTF? Are there a lot of people moving in the same area? Do you have some one traveling or scavenging with you? Are you armed? Is there gun fire in the area? So many questions and I just listed a very few.
So how would your plans change based on the answers to these questions? Thats the kind of brainstorming information I'm trying to get.
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