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Old 05-23-2020, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cannonfoddertfc View Post
Only in the public facilities or in places where social distancing isn't possible. Hangers, workshops, barracks, and office buildings are not requiring masks.
Depends on your office. When we end up going back to the office, we will be required to wear masks. My husband's office is also requiring masks.
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Old 05-24-2020, 08:47 AM
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I’ll preface this with saying that even crappy fitted masks may help some, but the problem isn’t so much the wearer even if they’re asymptomatic; it’s more for those in the category of being most at risk. Masks have become a fashion statement, a means of virtue signaling, and false sense of security…and that’s assuming they are even fitted and worn properly.

My only caution is that mask-use isn’t a panacea and there is data on the contrary of just effectiveness; some studies show them as detrimental to the wearer. Just like “scientific studies” that use to say salt, coffee, and eggs were bad for you, later studies found data that was the exact opposite. Science is rarely a “closed door” (like many think of climate change). Science and data are never bad, but as soon as that science and data gets corrupted for political purposes, it’ hurts that community. The irony of “peer reviews” is that the peer-groups are extremely exclusive; if you have a differing opinion, findings, data, etc., you likely won’t be part of those “peer review” groups.

https://www.technocracy.news/blayloc...o-the-healthy/

So, a pretty comprehensive study with findings that show masks may cause more harm to the wearer than those they’re supposedly protecting. If you have allergies, any respiratory issues like asthma, or if you wear them for extended periods (like the morons driving around in the cars, alone, with a mask on), you could be putting your own immune system at risk.

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Unfortunately, no one is telling the frail elderly and those with lung diseases, such as COPD, emphysema or pulmonary fibrosis, of these dangers when wearing a facial mask of any kind—which can cause a severe worsening of lung function. This also includes lung cancer patients and people having had lung surgery, especially with partial resection or even the removal of a whole lung.

While most agree that the N95 mask can cause significant hypoxia and hypercapnia, another study of surgical masks found significant reductions in blood oxygen as well. In this study, researchers examined the blood oxygen levels in 53 surgeons using an oximeter. They measured blood oxygenation before surgery as well as at the end of surgeries.4 The researchers found that the mask reduced the blood oxygen levels (pa02) significantly. The longer the duration of wearing the mask, the greater the fall in blood oxygen levels.

The importance of these findings is that a drop in oxygen levels (hypoxia) is associated with an impairment in immunity. Studies have shown that hypoxia can inhibit the type of main immune cells used to fight viral infections called the CD4+ T-lymphocyte. This occurs because the hypoxia increases the level of a compound called hypoxia inducible factor-1 (HIF-1), which inhibits T-lymphocytes and stimulates a powerful immune inhibitor cell called the Tregs. . This sets the stage for contracting any infection, including COVID-19 and making the consequences of that infection much graver. In essence, your mask may very well put you at an increased risk of infections and if so, having a much worse outcome.5,6,7
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There is another danger to wearing these masks on a daily basis, especially if worn for several hours. When a person is infected with a respiratory virus, they will expel some of the virus with each breath. If they are wearing a mask, especially an N95 mask or other tightly fitting mask, they will be constantly rebreathing the viruses, raising the concentration of the virus in the lungs and the nasal passages. We know that people who have the worst reactions to the coronavirus have the highest concentrations of the virus early on. And this leads to the deadly cytokine storm in a selected number.
Lastly, (again, it’s a study and is likely not conclusive), but there is evidence that this particular virus can enter the brain and be of significant risk of anyone already infected (even asymptomatic and not know), and they wear a mask:

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It gets even more frightening. Newer evidence suggests that in some cases the virus can enter the brain.11,12 In most instances it enters the brain by way of the olfactory nerves (smell nerves), which connect directly with the area of the brain dealing with recent memory and memory consolidation. By wearing a mask, the exhaled viruses will not be able to escape and will concentrate in the nasal passages, enter the olfactory nerves and travel into the brain.13
So, while many are defending mask use “even it’s only 10-20% effective”, don’t discount the potentially negative effects of actually wearing one. It’s a noble gesture to lookout for members in your community, but an informed survivalist will at least do a little counter-research to ensure they don’t put themselves at risk first.

ROCK6
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Old 05-25-2020, 11:50 AM
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face shields may be effective as well:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2765525

As they point out, and as I and others and just about anyone of common sense would think; none of this is perfect. Used improperly, stuff doesn't work as well, or maybe not at all. "Good stuff" like proper respirators vs. cloth is better, but anything is better than nothing. And in places fortunate enough to be wholly spared exposure, it all may be pointless, though maybe doesn't hurt. Look at some of the middle-of-nowhere Reservations. Those indians/native American/first nation? (I'm not sure what's proper these days), were fairly isolated. Until they weren't. Then - and now - this thing is tearing through there pretty good. Whether a community is getting hit hard by this or not is similar to the old recession/depression joke. It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job. It's a depression when you lose yours. Those who think no big deal because their area has been largely unaffected may suffer from some form of smug confirmation bias, but they've been ok because they've been lucky, not necessarily smart.

My bottom line is the mask thing it's a sensible compromise way back. For those who say keep everything shut down, I say hey, we flattened the curve. We did that. This was the whole deal right? So now we can do the mask thing and be responsible with distancing, etc. And by the way, with only a couple months of this shut in thing, suicides are up, cardiac and stroke patients and more avoiding the healthcare system are dying or delaying treatment or diagnosis. In other words, without even brining economy into the argument and just using the "but every life matters" argument, we can likely say at this point staying shut in is also killing pretty good. So yeah, using the mask as "virtue signaling" is as much BS as are hashtags by people who don't actually DO anything useful towards the thing they're whining about. But ignoring mask requirements intentionally in areas potentially at risk is similarly a BS statement for no good reason that potentially puts people at real risk. For now. Maybe in a handful of months from now, we should have a better sense of what's going on. Right now, as - I think - we all know... all the numbers are just all over the place and probably wrong. By then we should have a better sense of things. And if opening stuff up means the mask hassle for awhile, that's just not that a big deal.
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Old 05-25-2020, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in Illinois View Post
Normally this would not be in the political section however masks have become very political in resent weeks.
By extension, literally everything in life has a political connection of some sort. But that doesn't mean those conversations belong here either.
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Old 05-25-2020, 01:16 PM
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I only wear one when itís required...after that...off it comes
I got 2 work trips coming up in the next week or so....Orlando and then Portland
Delta requires them on the plane. So I bought a box of 50 paper ones to make Delta happy and I should be able to breathe on my flights.

I like the fact Delta isnít using the middle seat.... my Aisle seat is more comfortable now
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Old 05-25-2020, 06:57 PM
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Face Masks are one of the precautions that help slow the spread of any virus. I was the first one at our Walmart to wear a mask and gloves. That was early, before it was determined how the virus was spread and where it was. Here, there is now virtually no Covid-19 virus. However, masks do help to prevent the spread. There is a great deal of misinformation regarding masks, often claiming they do not stop the virus. Here are some facts.
Masks block particles .03 microns in diameter.
Covid-19 virus are .0125 microns in diameter.
Water vapor droplets in which the virus is carried are 10-15 microns in diameter.
That is 333-500 times larger than the smallest particle the masks block.
THAT is science. THAT is why the masks actually do work.
Now, that is based upon single use. If the mask is decontaminated in a Microwave Oven, then that also applies to the next use. It is helpful to spray the inside of the mask with saline solution before microwaving, but not necessary.
Having said that, last week I switched from a filter mask to the mask below.
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Old 05-26-2020, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
A counter argument:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252

Properly fitting, almost as good as a properly fitted n95

Why the hell is this in the political section? Is everything really political for you people?
correct, there are have been a handful of studies, i have posted some here in other threads, that show surgical masks are nearly identical to n-95s in protecting against upper respiratory transmissions. there are likely several reasons, but the science does show it protects you, not just other people from you. why the we continue with this myth is beyond me.
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottPreps View Post
Masks are not perfect. Even the good ones. And the people who use them poorly make them even less effective. But that's ok. Even if they're only 20% effective, (and it's likely much more), and then even if they decrease what goes in or out something like only 20% of the time, that would still make a huge difference in spread. At least, in places where it's a problem. So for New York Metro area - probably up to a few hundred miles out - and San Francisco and LA and then ANY place that turns into a hotspot, they're still useful.

You don't even need any math for this. You can use common sense logic. If simple surgical masks and N95s weren't highly effective a lot of the time, then you would have long ago seen tragic outcomes all over the healthcare system from street medics through surgeons. Why? Because there's been tons of infectious crap out there for years of course. Long ago you would have seen these healthcare folks in much more stringent gear. Both myself and lots of folks I know have treated all manner of infectious patients for years without much concern and no problems. (It's not that it doesn't happen, but it's somewhat rare.) The only reason with this so many medical folks are getting it is because it's so prevalent. When something is everywhere, it's hard to just not possible to stay perfectly clean all the time with this level of gear. This exception pretty much proves the general rule.

I don't think masks will stop this thing in the end. We'll all get it. And that's ok since we've flattened the curve and at a lower rate of spread, there should be hospital beds for those that need them. But for now it still needs to be slowed down. And if people are sensible about things, everything should be able to open and find a way to function.

Don't believe? That's ok. Watch. Places that have sensible rules, (not stupid senseless draconian ones, but just sensible), will be fine. Moron places will turn into hotspots. You and I might not die, (probably), but mom and dad?
I like your explanation.

Add to it that the medical personnel wear them (N95) if at all possible. I'm looking at what the educated people do, not necessarily what they say. I think the Surgeon General started off with a bald-faced lie about the effectiveness of N95 masks at the very beginning while he was trying to keep the sheeple from buying the masks that the medical profession knew were effective and essential.

We happened to have a supply of N95s left over from the avian flu scare. We offered several to a couple of HCPs but they had enough for the moment to be safe and didn't want us to be without. As time went on and the need for masks for everyone became more apparent, the Cute Little Wife began making masks that would hold carefully cut and fitted pieces of 3M 2500 filter fabric. This kept us from having to use many of the N95s.

We're tooling up for a resurgence of COVID19, whether it be in the summer from people losing their minds over cabin fever or in the fall due to changes in behavior due to weather. This virus isn't done yet.
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by TriggerHappy View Post
Perhaps if these work so well the military should issue them instead of those pricey gas masks.



*heavy sarcasm*
Perhaps if mask are as useless as some here claim, surgical teams should stop wasting money.

*heavy sarcasm*
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyboy View Post
correct, there are have been a handful of studies, i have posted some here in other threads, that show surgical masks are nearly identical to n-95s in protecting against upper respiratory transmissions. there are likely several reasons, but the science does show it protects you, not just other people from you. why the we continue with this myth is beyond me.
It's simple confirmation bias. If something is expensive, or hard to find, the people who actually have it like to play up its importance and superiority.

You will see it everywhere, guns, cars, Tv's, whatever. They play up what they have, or what they want, and downplay alternatives.

And official's can be the worst. If you have a license or a cert in something you probably put a lot of work and money into getting it, and getting the right equipment and so you are inclined to defend your exclusivity. "You have to be trained in this and you have to have the offical XYZ gear or you shouldn't even bother"

n95s or nothing is just a variation of the age old human tendency.

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Old 05-28-2020, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Texas Fire View Post
It serves no purpose at all unless you are already sick.
the problem is because you can be asymptomatic, you dont know if you are sick.
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by txprep View Post
the problem is because you can be asymptomatic, you dont know if you are sick.
asymptomatic ... Sounds like a mighty fancy (gman) word to describe a perfectly healthy person.

Do you remember who created the catch phrase "conspiracy theorist" and why?

We should tap back in to the common sense of our grandparents instead of trusting those who wish to rule over us.
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Texas Fire View Post
asymptomatic ... Sounds like a mighty fancy (gman) word to describe a perfectly healthy person.

Do you remember who created the catch phrase "conspiracy theorist" and why?

We should tap back in to the common sense of our grandparents instead of trusting those who wish to rule over us.
It may sound like that, but it's a medical term with a different meaning in the medical world. let me help:
Quote:
Asymptomatic
Persons who carry a disease and are usually capable of transmitting the disease but, who do not exhibit symptoms of the disease are said to be asymptomatic.
Mentioned in: Amebiasis, Balantidiasis, Coccidioidomycosis, Cryptococcosis, Fluke Infections, Mumps
Gale Encyclopedia of Medicine. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.

Another term more used by non medical types is "Carrier"

Typhoid Mary is the classic example. She killed 50+ people by refusing to take basic precautions because she "never got sick"
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Old 05-28-2020, 08:50 PM
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the problem is because you can be asymptomatic, you dont know if you are sick.
There are many everyday medical conditions that are like that: DM, HTN, CAD, etc.

Those who are merely carriers of COVID-19 and don't suffer signs or symptoms, aren't really ill. Though that doesn't mean that they can't become ill.
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Old 05-29-2020, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
Another term more used by non medical types is "Carrier"

Typhoid Mary is the classic example. She killed 50+ people by refusing to take basic precautions because she "never got sick"
However, we do know those who are most susceptible to this virus...the vast majority are well over 65 and/or with specific heart, or respiratory underlying issues, diabetes, etc. It's pretty absurd to focus mitigation on the 98% of the population that may be asymptomatic instead of the extremely small segment at most risk with the known underlying health issues (again, 30% of deaths have been consolidated in nursing homes). I'm not discounting the use of masks, I'm discounting the overall strategy and focusing efforts on those who are at risk. About a week ago, they CDC had less than 200 deaths associated with COVID-19 who did not have any previously known underlying health conditions...do the math, the chosen strategy was simply wrong after knowing who was at most risk...

We don't ban peanuts from society because a small percentage who know they're allergic are at risk. Those allergic take precautions, not the vast majority of society (other than put out warnings). So, if I'm healthy and potentially asymptomatic, I won't be visiting nursing homes or critical care wards unless I'm a health professional working there. Conversely, I would hope an elderly person with diabetes, heart disease, and respiratory problems wouldn't be attending a mass gathering in an enclosed space with a bunch of healthier young people...and then condemn them for not wearing masks because they just might be asymptomatic.

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Old 05-29-2020, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
However, we do know those who are most susceptible to this virus...the vast majority are well over 65 and/or with specific heart, or respiratory underlying issues, diabetes, etc. It's pretty absurd to focus mitigation on the 98% of the population that may be asymptomatic instead of the extremely small segment at most risk with the known underlying health issues (again, 30% of deaths have been consolidated in nursing homes). I'm not discounting the use of masks, I'm discounting the overall strategy and focusing efforts on those who are at risk. About a week ago, they CDC had less than 200 deaths associated with COVID-19 who did not have any previously known underlying health conditions...do the math, the chosen strategy was simply wrong after knowing who was at most risk...

We don't ban peanuts from society because a small percentage who know they're allergic are at risk. Those allergic take precautions, not the vast majority of society (other than put out warnings). So, if I'm healthy and potentially asymptomatic, I won't be visiting nursing homes or critical care wards unless I'm a health professional working there. Conversely, I would hope an elderly person with diabetes, heart disease, and respiratory problems wouldn't be attending a mass gathering in an enclosed space with a bunch of healthier young people...and then condemn them for not wearing masks because they just might be asymptomatic.

ROCK6
Exactly.....well said Rock

Itís about common sense. But common sense is not popular these days.

I only wear a mask when a sign is posted stating it is required. Soon as I clear the door....off it comes
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Old 05-29-2020, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
However, we do know those who are most susceptible to this virus...the vast majority are well over 65 and/or with specific heart, or respiratory underlying issues, diabetes, etc. It's pretty absurd to focus mitigation on the 98% of the population that may be asymptomatic instead of the extremely small segment at most risk with the known underlying health issues (again, 30% of deaths have been consolidated in nursing homes). I'm not discounting the use of masks, I'm discounting the overall strategy and focusing efforts on those who are at risk. About a week ago, they CDC had less than 200 deaths associated with COVID-19 who did not have any previously known underlying health conditions...do the math, the chosen strategy was simply wrong after knowing who was at most risk...

ROCK6
I would absolutely agree if the mortality rate were the only thing to worry about.

Go look at the article in the "blood clots" thread.

I said months ago and continue to want to know what the non-mortality, but long term health issues are with this very diverse virus.

Even if it's nothing (and we know its not that.) The problem is that it's a novel virus.

Meaning no one knows.

IF there are no long term health issues (and we know enough to know That's not the case.) it's not because we "did anything right" but because we "got lucky"

I don't know about you, but I haven't got very far in life depending on luck.

The long term health issues and associated costs have yet to be determined. Not just ongoing medical care, but loss of productivity.

I was looking for some data on it in Feb, and I'm still looking.



don't need to wear my seat belt very often, but I put it on every time...
Because I don't just depend on being lucky enough to put it on the day I'm gonna wreck.
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Old 05-30-2020, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim in Illinois View Post
The Difference Between Respirators and Surgical Masks - YouTube


Facemasks do not effectively filter small particles from the air and do not prevent leakage around the edge of the mask when the user inhales. The role of facemasks is for patient source control, to prevent contamination of the surrounding area when a person coughs or sneezes.
I seem to be about the only one in my community who wears a mask, but I was prepared for the last scare several years ago so I purchased a few good masks with disposable filters. With the straps tight, very little air if any gets between skin and rubber. No one can hear you talk. I have seen a couple homemade masks and one N-95 but none like mine. I wear mine to protect me from others not others from me.
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Old 05-30-2020, 02:33 PM
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I did not find any scientific studies that show wearing masks in public is helpful to preventing spread of disease. We know cloth face masks do not filter microscopic virus particles. We know that droplet precautions include goggles. When will we be told to wear goggles? If cloth masks work why are N95 masks being used in clinical settings ?oh, I forgot we don't have enough N95 for everyone. The recommendation will be whatever is convenient at the moment, not what science shows. If masks worked, why are we social distancing? If masks worked why isn't everything opened? I still cant get my hair cut where I live. If you live in the state of Michigan you have less than 0 chance of dying from covid , do the math yourself. If you live in Sweden it is almost exactly the same and they had no lockdown. Both places have about 10 million people and about 5000 deaths,give or take negligible due to unreliability of reporting deaths.
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Old 05-30-2020, 02:45 PM
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I just put a 2 x 2 Post-It note on my nose. I write on it.

"facemask"

I expect the virus will honor it.
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