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Military Weapons Forum AR15, AK47, SKS, H&K, Galil, CETME, FN/FAL, Tanks, Ships, Jets, Helicopters....

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Old 06-30-2020, 07:55 AM
Rural Buckeye Guy Rural Buckeye Guy is offline
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The value of 556 in the AR platform is its universal utility to train new shooters using military style arms. I have trained my kids, as kids, in how to use and maintain them. Arguably, many former military style weapon packages potentially fall into this category. The difference being that people like me grow up with guns, plinking and hunting with guns. My kids transitioned from 22 rifles to AR rifles in an afternoon. It was heavier but easier to shoot, clean and more fun to plink with. Between them, thier cousins thier friends (with parents), I cooked off 2k rounds and easily 80 large pizzas. But everyone learned, the black rifle fear went away, they learned and relearned and relearned safety.

Little holes? Not as important as more visible rifle barrels if things get sharp. ARs are in many ways the commonmans eeapon....
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Old 06-30-2020, 08:03 AM
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JDH JDH is offline
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
5-7 rounds (I counted, many times) in the torso to make Hajj be good.

Over and over and over.

I'll NEVER willingly rely upon 556 again.

No response matters. Simply is.
FMJ? Better on people than 40 hollow point varmint loads.
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Old 06-30-2020, 08:19 AM
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Dutchmano1 Dutchmano1 is offline
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Originally Posted by JDH View Post
FMJ? Better on people than 40 hollow point varmint loads.
55 grain hollow points can be relied upon to expand in human torsos. The m855 was made for longer range had a tendency to just through folks without yawing. Of course all of this depends on things like barrel length and rifle twist.

Of course good ÷l army fixed all that with the m855a1 but you can’t have those.◊45mm_NATO

Combat operations the past few months have again highlighted terminal performance deficiencies with 5.56x45mm 62 gr. M855 FMJ. These problems have primarily been manifested as inadequate incapacitation of enemy forces despite their being hit multiple times by M855 bullets. These failures appear to be associated with the bullets exiting the body of the enemy soldier without yawing or fragmenting. This failure to yaw and fragment can be caused by reduced impact velocities as when fired from short barrel weapons or when the range increases. It can also occur when the bullets pass through only minimal tissue, such as a limb or the chest of a thin, malnourished individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to yaw and fragment. In addition, bullets of the SS109/M855 type are manufactured by many countries in numerous production plants. Although all SS109/M855 types must be 62 gr. FMJ bullets constructed with a steel penetrator in the nose, the composition, thickness, and relative weights of the jackets, penetrators, and cores are quite variable, as are the types and position of the cannelures. Because of the significant differences in construction between bullets within the SS109/M855 category, terminal performance is quite variable—with differences noted in yaw, fragmentation, and penetration depths.

Wound profiles in ballistic gelatin
Note: images are not to same scale
M16 5.56◊45mm wound ballistics
M16 M193 5.56◊45mm
M16A2 M855 5.56◊45mm wound ballistics
M16A2 SS109/M855 5.56◊45mm NATO
If 5.56 mm bullets fail to upset (yaw, fragment, or deform) within tissue, the results are less significant wounds that may not cause adequate blood loss or damage to immediately stop the target's attack or advances . This is true for all 5.56◊45mm bullets, including both military FMJ and OTM (open tip match) and civilian JHP/JSP designs used in law enforcement. As expected, with decreased wounding effects, rapid incapacitation is unlikely: enemy soldiers may continue to pose a threat to friendly forces and violent suspects can remain a danger to law enforcement personnel and the public. This failure of 5.56◊45mm NATO bullets to yaw can be caused by reduced impact velocities as when fired from short-barreled weapons or when the range to the target increases. Failure to yaw and fragment can also occur when the bullets pass through only minimal tissue, such as a limb or the chest of a thin, small statured individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to yaw and fragment. Two other yaw issues: Angle-of-Attack (AOA) variations between different projectiles, even within the same lot of ammo, as well as Fleet Yaw variations between different rifles, were elucidated in 2006 by the Joint Service Wound Ballistic Integrated Product Team (JSWB-IPT), which included experts from the military law enforcement user community, trauma surgeons, aero ballisticians, weapon and munitions engineers, and other scientific specialists. These yaw issues were most noticeable at close ranges and were more prevalent with certain calibers and bullet styles—the most susceptible being 5.56◊45mm NATO FMJ ammunition like SS109/M855 and M193.

— Dr. Martin Fackler[37]
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Old 06-30-2020, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Dutchmano1 View Post
55 grain hollow points can be relied upon to expand in human torsos.
Perhaps. BUT, I've never been issued anything but 55gr FMJ.
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Old 06-30-2020, 04:10 PM
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Inazone Inazone is offline
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At the end of the day, a fantastic rifle that is fed a strict diet of poorly performing ammunition comes out looking ineffective. Likewise, the finest premium ammo in the world being run through a POS gun will be ineffective. People should be using the gun/ammo combination best suited to achieve the desired outcome. Since the military supply chain was brought up, it's worth stating that modern military forces have a multitude of options available for "problem solving" and can dedicate manpower and resources to solving those problems, with the luxury of resupplying at the taxpayers' expense, or going back to the drawing board when a particular tool proves unsuitable for the job.

As civilians, or at least those of us in the US in "permissive" states, we have a lot of options available, too, but without the deep pockets and supply chain the military enjoys. The vast majority of American gun owners will (hopefully) never have to find out which gun/ammo combination is most effective at neutralizing a lethal threat, but as technology advances, eventually plateaus and finally becomes affordable to virtually everyone who wants it, you get things like the AR15. Assuming everything is built to mil-spec, the basic function of one AR should be comparable to the next, with higher price getting you more/better features and (arguably) better durability. And what do many folks do? They buy the cheapest ammo possible.

Across hundreds or perhaps thousands of posts on this forum, ammo has been hotly debated, and it's usually established pretty quickly that the gun/ammo combination fielded by the US military in the M16/M4 platform has been hindered by ammo restrictions. Can it be accurate? Yes. Can it kill enemy combatants? Yes, with proper shot placement. But are there better ammo options available to the civilian who chooses the AR platform? There sure are. Same thing in the handgun realm.

It all comes down to what you want to do. Take out raiders at 300+ yards? Achieve accurate on-target hits through auto glass? Defeat body armor? Put food on the table? There are choices. Some of them can check multiple boxes, some of them are really only good for one role. Some of them are only effective with a gun built to fully utilize that ammo, whether by function of barrel or optics or some other feature. My choice is an AR with a 1-6X scope and 1:7-twist barrel that will put a bonded 62gr SP bullet on-target at anywhere from up close out to 200 yards, the maximum distance at which I have the opportunity to shoot. For someone else, it might be a heavier bullet out of a longer barrel with a more powerful optic at a longer distance . . . if that's their need.
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Old 06-30-2020, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dutchmano1 View Post
His point being the u.s. military chose the m16 because of its ability to provide suppressive fire (full auto). Thatís the only reason it exists. Itís a trade off (full auto as opposed to longer range...more lethality...greater penetration ect)

The author is saying the semi auto ar platform gives you all the downsides (weak cartridge.....short range.....ect) and none of the upsides (full auto).
So, it's a rant against the AR-15, not ARs generally or the 5.56 cartridge generally. Thank you.

His message was very poorly communicated and he still needs to provide some alternatives.
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Old 06-30-2020, 04:40 PM
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Panchovilla Panchovilla is offline
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I trained with and carried the M16 back in 1967-69. I sure don't remember shooting full auto all the time. And this guy talks about a 'tumbling' bullet; I believe he's referring to yawing. If I'm trying to kill someone more than 400 yds out, maybe I should consider retreating instead and live to fight another day. .................

Meh, I'm just picking on the guy. I'm not impressed. I can't begin to imagine how many rounds in 5.56 I've fired over the last 50 years with this platform; both select and semi.

IMHO, just shoot what you shoot best.

Last edited by Panchovilla; 06-30-2020 at 04:49 PM.. Reason: clarification
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