Your AR will get you killed...are you a soldier wannabe? - Page 5 - Survivalist Forum
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Military Weapons Forum AR15, AK47, SKS, H&K, Galil, CETME, FN/FAL, Tanks, Ships, Jets, Helicopters....

Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-30-2020, 07:55 AM
Rural Buckeye Guy Rural Buckeye Guy is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: rural ohio
Posts: 4,213
Thanks: 40
Thanked 8,072 Times in 2,837 Posts
Default



Advertise Here

The value of 556 in the AR platform is its universal utility to train new shooters using military style arms. I have trained my kids, as kids, in how to use and maintain them. Arguably, many former military style weapon packages potentially fall into this category. The difference being that people like me grow up with guns, plinking and hunting with guns. My kids transitioned from 22 rifles to AR rifles in an afternoon. It was heavier but easier to shoot, clean and more fun to plink with. Between them, thier cousins thier friends (with parents), I cooked off 2k rounds and easily 80 large pizzas. But everyone learned, the black rifle fear went away, they learned and relearned and relearned safety.

Little holes? Not as important as more visible rifle barrels if things get sharp. ARs are in many ways the commonmans eeapon....
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-30-2020, 08:03 AM
JDH's Avatar
JDH JDH is offline
Si vis pacem, para bellum
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,980
Thanks: 827
Thanked 11,084 Times in 4,205 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
5-7 rounds (I counted, many times) in the torso to make Hajj be good.

Over and over and over.

I'll NEVER willingly rely upon 556 again.


No response matters. Simply is.
FMJ? Better on people than 40 hollow point varmint loads.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-30-2020, 08:19 AM
Dutchmano1's Avatar
Dutchmano1 Dutchmano1 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Middle of nowhere arkansas
Posts: 2,228
Thanks: 3
Thanked 1,387 Times in 825 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDH View Post
FMJ? Better on people than 40 hollow point varmint loads.
55 grain hollow points can be relied upon to expand in human torsos. The m855 was made for longer range had a tendency to just through folks without yawing. Of course all of this depends on things like barrel length and rifle twist.

Of course good ÷l army fixed all that with the m855a1 but you can’t have those.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56◊45mm_NATO


Quote:
Combat operations the past few months have again highlighted terminal performance deficiencies with 5.56x45mm 62 gr. M855 FMJ. These problems have primarily been manifested as inadequate incapacitation of enemy forces despite their being hit multiple times by M855 bullets. These failures appear to be associated with the bullets exiting the body of the enemy soldier without yawing or fragmenting. This failure to yaw and fragment can be caused by reduced impact velocities as when fired from short barrel weapons or when the range increases. It can also occur when the bullets pass through only minimal tissue, such as a limb or the chest of a thin, malnourished individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to yaw and fragment. In addition, bullets of the SS109/M855 type are manufactured by many countries in numerous production plants. Although all SS109/M855 types must be 62 gr. FMJ bullets constructed with a steel penetrator in the nose, the composition, thickness, and relative weights of the jackets, penetrators, and cores are quite variable, as are the types and position of the cannelures. Because of the significant differences in construction between bullets within the SS109/M855 category, terminal performance is quite variable—with differences noted in yaw, fragmentation, and penetration depths.

Wound profiles in ballistic gelatin
Note: images are not to same scale
M16 5.56◊45mm wound ballistics
M16 M193 5.56◊45mm
M16A2 M855 5.56◊45mm wound ballistics
M16A2 SS109/M855 5.56◊45mm NATO
If 5.56 mm bullets fail to upset (yaw, fragment, or deform) within tissue, the results are less significant wounds that may not cause adequate blood loss or damage to immediately stop the target's attack or advances . This is true for all 5.56◊45mm bullets, including both military FMJ and OTM (open tip match) and civilian JHP/JSP designs used in law enforcement. As expected, with decreased wounding effects, rapid incapacitation is unlikely: enemy soldiers may continue to pose a threat to friendly forces and violent suspects can remain a danger to law enforcement personnel and the public. This failure of 5.56◊45mm NATO bullets to yaw can be caused by reduced impact velocities as when fired from short-barreled weapons or when the range to the target increases. Failure to yaw and fragment can also occur when the bullets pass through only minimal tissue, such as a limb or the chest of a thin, small statured individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to yaw and fragment. Two other yaw issues: Angle-of-Attack (AOA) variations between different projectiles, even within the same lot of ammo, as well as Fleet Yaw variations between different rifles, were elucidated in 2006 by the Joint Service Wound Ballistic Integrated Product Team (JSWB-IPT), which included experts from the military law enforcement user community, trauma surgeons, aero ballisticians, weapon and munitions engineers, and other scientific specialists. These yaw issues were most noticeable at close ranges and were more prevalent with certain calibers and bullet styles—the most susceptible being 5.56◊45mm NATO FMJ ammunition like SS109/M855 and M193.

— Dr. Martin Fackler[37]
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-30-2020, 08:34 AM
JDH's Avatar
JDH JDH is offline
Si vis pacem, para bellum
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,980
Thanks: 827
Thanked 11,084 Times in 4,205 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchmano1 View Post
55 grain hollow points can be relied upon to expand in human torsos.
Perhaps. BUT, I've never been issued anything but 55gr FMJ.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-30-2020, 04:10 PM
Inazone's Avatar
Inazone Inazone is offline
Fenced In
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Bloomington, MN
Posts: 3,223
Thanks: 1,410
Thanked 4,394 Times in 1,887 Posts
Default

At the end of the day, a fantastic rifle that is fed a strict diet of poorly performing ammunition comes out looking ineffective. Likewise, the finest premium ammo in the world being run through a POS gun will be ineffective. People should be using the gun/ammo combination best suited to achieve the desired outcome. Since the military supply chain was brought up, it's worth stating that modern military forces have a multitude of options available for "problem solving" and can dedicate manpower and resources to solving those problems, with the luxury of resupplying at the taxpayers' expense, or going back to the drawing board when a particular tool proves unsuitable for the job.

As civilians, or at least those of us in the US in "permissive" states, we have a lot of options available, too, but without the deep pockets and supply chain the military enjoys. The vast majority of American gun owners will (hopefully) never have to find out which gun/ammo combination is most effective at neutralizing a lethal threat, but as technology advances, eventually plateaus and finally becomes affordable to virtually everyone who wants it, you get things like the AR15. Assuming everything is built to mil-spec, the basic function of one AR should be comparable to the next, with higher price getting you more/better features and (arguably) better durability. And what do many folks do? They buy the cheapest ammo possible.

Across hundreds or perhaps thousands of posts on this forum, ammo has been hotly debated, and it's usually established pretty quickly that the gun/ammo combination fielded by the US military in the M16/M4 platform has been hindered by ammo restrictions. Can it be accurate? Yes. Can it kill enemy combatants? Yes, with proper shot placement. But are there better ammo options available to the civilian who chooses the AR platform? There sure are. Same thing in the handgun realm.

It all comes down to what you want to do. Take out raiders at 300+ yards? Achieve accurate on-target hits through auto glass? Defeat body armor? Put food on the table? There are choices. Some of them can check multiple boxes, some of them are really only good for one role. Some of them are only effective with a gun built to fully utilize that ammo, whether by function of barrel or optics or some other feature. My choice is an AR with a 1-6X scope and 1:7-twist barrel that will put a bonded 62gr SP bullet on-target at anywhere from up close out to 200 yards, the maximum distance at which I have the opportunity to shoot. For someone else, it might be a heavier bullet out of a longer barrel with a more powerful optic at a longer distance . . . if that's their need.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Inazone For This Useful Post:
Old 06-30-2020, 04:31 PM
Ankylus's Avatar
Ankylus Ankylus is offline
Listen to the ghosts
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas Gulf Coast
Posts: 5,201
Thanks: 5,803
Thanked 9,563 Times in 3,491 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchmano1 View Post
His point being the u.s. military chose the m16 because of its ability to provide suppressive fire (full auto). Thatís the only reason it exists. Itís a trade off (full auto as opposed to longer range...more lethality...greater penetration ect)

The author is saying the semi auto ar platform gives you all the downsides (weak cartridge.....short range.....ect) and none of the upsides (full auto).
So, it's a rant against the AR-15, not ARs generally or the 5.56 cartridge generally. Thank you.

His message was very poorly communicated and he still needs to provide some alternatives.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-30-2020, 04:40 PM
Panchovilla's Avatar
Panchovilla Panchovilla is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 126
Thanks: 50
Thanked 204 Times in 82 Posts
Default

I trained with and carried the M16 back in 1967-69. I sure don't remember shooting full auto all the time. And this guy talks about a 'tumbling' bullet; I believe he's referring to yawing. If I'm trying to kill someone more than 400 yds out, maybe I should consider retreating instead and live to fight another day. .................

Meh, I'm just picking on the guy. I'm not impressed. I can't begin to imagine how many rounds in 5.56 I've fired over the last 50 years with this platform; both select and semi.

IMHO, just shoot what you shoot best.

Last edited by Panchovilla; 06-30-2020 at 04:49 PM.. Reason: clarification
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-03-2020, 01:01 AM
MrHmuriy's Avatar
MrHmuriy MrHmuriy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Brovary, Ukraine
Age: 45
Posts: 77
Thanks: 77
Thanked 189 Times in 59 Posts
Default

Black rifle - a sufficiently reliable weapon with sufficient stopping power in order to use it for self-defense. In my country, when the war started, these locally produced civilian rifles were probably the only weapons available for paramilitary units. They were mainly used for urban warfare at distances between 20-250 meters - none of their opponents complained. Although, when the enemy start using bulletproof vests (now everyone using a NIJ Level IV vests), usage of civilian ammunition is not effective enough. This is one of the reasons why I would prefer .308 if I will be involved in such activities. Currently I use AR-15 as a self-defense weapon - at a distances of up to 25 meters, an ordinary 55gr bullet is quite effective, since robbers usually do not use bulletproof vests.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MrHmuriy For This Useful Post:
Old 07-03-2020, 11:42 AM
sarge912's Avatar
sarge912 sarge912 is offline
Father of 11 husband of 1
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Northeast Ohio
Age: 68
Posts: 10,431
Thanks: 5,907
Thanked 13,684 Times in 5,685 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rural Buckeye Guy View Post
The value of 556 in the AR platform is its universal utility to train new shooters using military style arms. I have trained my kids, as kids, in how to use and maintain them. Arguably, many former military style weapon packages potentially fall into this category. The difference being that people like me grow up with guns, plinking and hunting with guns. My kids transitioned from 22 rifles to AR rifles in an afternoon. It was heavier but easier to shoot, clean and more fun to plink with. Between them, their cousins their friends (with parents), I cooked off 2k rounds and easily 80 large pizzas. But everyone learned, the black rifle fear went away, they learned and relearned and relearned safety.

Little holes? Not as important as more visible rifle barrels if things get sharp. ARs are in many ways the commonmans eeapon....
Yup. The other great advantage is how easy it is repair simply by swapping components in the field and figuring out the exact problem later. My kids, grandkids and inlaws have built many AR's in my shop, getting a much better understanding of how they function.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-03-2020, 12:48 PM
Peter's Avatar
Peter Peter is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Above ground
Posts: 8,781
Thanks: 5,078
Thanked 9,212 Times in 4,357 Posts
Default

I skipped a head, Being to Loves this forum...well that didn't take long. As far as my AR getting me killed that's all I needed to hear on that topic...so no point in watching the video...besides it was blocked on this site so it is more than likely a source of revenue for the individual who made it...
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Peter For This Useful Post:
Old 07-04-2020, 01:37 PM
Czechsix Czechsix is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Meadow Lakes, Alaska
Posts: 193
Thanks: 18
Thanked 152 Times in 75 Posts
Default

Every video put out by that channel is absolute click bait crap. Not worth listening, I've got better things to do with my time, like typing this out. LOL.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Czechsix For This Useful Post:
Old 07-05-2020, 11:15 AM
Dragunov's Avatar
Dragunov Dragunov is offline
TEXAS!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Great Republic of Texas!
Posts: 7,224
Thanks: 10,760
Thanked 11,391 Times in 4,385 Posts
Default

I have an AR. I kill deer, and hogs with it. No problems with it EVER. A 55gr 223, will near take your leg off at 50 yards, if you hit bone. I've seen pictures.

Anyone care to stand 200yards from an AR, willing to get shot with it?


I didn't think so.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-06-2020, 11:55 AM
merlinfire's Avatar
merlinfire merlinfire is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,069
Thanks: 34,931
Thanked 48,154 Times in 14,023 Posts
Default

survival in a boogaloo has more to do with tactics than tools. a lot more.

me personally, i would (theoretically) intend never to get in any enclosed spaces anywhere near an urban area. prefer long lines of sight, lots of ways out, cover and concealment. scopes and bipods. and if i didn't have front and back plates and a helmet i sure enough wouldn't be getting involved in urban cqb.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to merlinfire For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2020, 12:22 PM
Peter's Avatar
Peter Peter is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Above ground
Posts: 8,781
Thanks: 5,078
Thanked 9,212 Times in 4,357 Posts
Default

When your best efforts at avoidance and social distancing fail...and it becomes apparent that the situation has become unavoidable and unsocial, it's better to have one than to not have one.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Peter For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2020, 01:42 PM
Straza's Avatar
Straza Straza is offline
Rebel Against Tyrants
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 11,135
Thanks: 4,466
Thanked 22,179 Times in 7,275 Posts
Awards Showcase
Outstanding Member 
Total Awards: 1
Default

Just built another AR


Kills hogs just fine with the following ammo


55gr Federal Bonded
62gr Federal Fusion
75gr Speer Gold Dot
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Straza For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2020, 01:43 PM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gulf coast and/or Nomadically
Posts: 33,475
Thanks: 32,929
Thanked 74,461 Times in 22,924 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragunov View Post
I have an AR. I kill deer, and hogs with it. No problems with it EVER. A 55gr 223, will near take your leg off at 50 yards, if you hit bone. I've seen pictures.

Anyone care to stand 200yards from an AR, willing to get shot with it?


I didn't think so
.
One of the dumbest ****ing 'validations' people keep saying.

I don't volunteer to stand down range from thrown empty cans.

You've seen pictues: I've used it.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Nomad, 2nd For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2020, 05:22 PM
Astronomy Astronomy is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Pineland Expat
Posts: 5,068
Thanks: 4,542
Thanked 16,504 Times in 4,058 Posts
Default

So have I. No problems.

I won't use M855/M856 for anything outside of range firing. Not even if you give it to me for free. I don't buy it or stock it. That particular load combination sucks. If (as I suspect) you were running that stuff through your SAW... I can understand your hatred. I see you beat that drum hard, in post after post. I don't doubt your very real unsat experience. But it wasn't mine. Because I'm pretty sure I had better performing ammo than what you had to use.

That garbage load is ancient history nowadays. Along with the ridiculous gravel-belly rifle designed to shoot it (M16A2).

Brother, I promise you, 5.56 ammo (both military & commercial) has come a long way since 2004 Fallujah. Significantly.

No need to reply or debate. I get where you're coming from. I don't even dispute it.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Astronomy For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2020, 05:35 PM
Dragunov's Avatar
Dragunov Dragunov is offline
TEXAS!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Great Republic of Texas!
Posts: 7,224
Thanks: 10,760
Thanked 11,391 Times in 4,385 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
One of the dumbest ****ing 'validations' people keep saying.

I don't volunteer to stand down range from thrown empty cans.

You've seen pictues: I've used it.
Viable validation though. I've seen what it does to a deer.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Dragunov For This Useful Post:
Old 07-06-2020, 06:11 PM
DisgruntledPatriot's Avatar
DisgruntledPatriot DisgruntledPatriot is online now
Hail to the King, Baby
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1,460
Thanks: 3,026
Thanked 3,991 Times in 1,084 Posts
Default

I'm actually building an A2 from Palmetto right now, Astrononomy. What was, in your opinion, the issue? Genuinely curious.
Quick reply to this message
Old 07-06-2020, 07:18 PM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gulf coast and/or Nomadically
Posts: 33,475
Thanks: 32,929
Thanked 74,461 Times in 22,924 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post

Brother, I promise you, 5.56 ammo (both military & commercial) has come a long way since...
(When I talk to people about it I typically mention that possibility, and say I will not argue with you about the performance of your TAP or Nuclear tipped rounds.)

...but I also note that that's been claimed since the 60's!
(I remember hearing such "in the Old Corps."
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Nomad, 2nd For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
223 remington, ar-15 for shtf, ar15, shtf survival rifle, survival rifle



Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net