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Old 07-12-2019, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Central Scrutinizer View Post
Heads would be exploding here on SB.
Well, setting aside that you're talking about a religion that was founded by a pedophile rapist, I think fair is fair when it comes to religious freedom, and I think most here would agree. I've rarely ever heard anyone saying that a Jew or Muslim or Buddhist could not worship freely, that's the 1st amendment after all.

I do get pretty upset when people try to prevent people from worshipping freely, or they want to tear down war monuments to the dead just because they're in the shape of a Cross, and such.
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Old 07-12-2019, 07:56 PM
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I do get pretty upset when people try to prevent people from worshipping freely...
Freedom of worship is like freedom of the press. It means the government can't stop you... not that you are free to do whatever you want. Freedom of the press doesn't mean you can use your apartment building's copier for free to run off your newsletter and shove it under the door of every apartment and leave it under the wipers of every car in the lot.

From the scant news I have read, it appears the Bible Study was using communal space and annoying residents. I hope and assume the management tried means short of an eviction threat to resolve the problem before it came to this.
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Central Scrutinizer View Post
If he were playing a mechanic and changing oil for random folks in the parking lot. Yes

Bible study, Church? How does one differentiate? The subject matter is exactly the same.
Irrelevant. Reservations for using the common area can be made for birthdays, weddings, funerals, etc. The subject matter to reserve the common area really does not matter.
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:47 PM
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Irrelevant. Reservations for using the common area can be made for birthdays, weddings, funerals, etc. The subject matter to reserve the common area really does not matter.
Except that it does. It's OK to have a birthday party in the club house once a year. But if you're a wedding planner holding an event every week, that's going to violate the lease... and annoy the neighbors who can't schedule their own birthday party.
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:49 PM
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Except that it does.
LOL The article said that he may be evicted even for having Bible Study in his apartment.
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
LOL The article said that he may be evicted even for having Bible Study in his apartment.
Other sources have more information.

Quote:
Kenneth Hauge, a retired Lutheran minister, and his wife, Liv, said they hosted their classes in the complex's community room and were threatened with eviction if they did not stop.
https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values...lex-files-suit
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by LibShooter View Post
Other sources have more information.
Other information is not contradictory information. And are you relying on Foxnews now?
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:56 PM
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Satanists take Scottsdale to court, Surprise City Council
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Old 07-12-2019, 10:09 PM
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Other information is not contradictory information.
Iím not sure what that means, but the story says the couple face eviction because of their bible study in the complex's community room, and not just their own apartment.

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And are you relying on Foxnews now?
I have no problem with Fox News journalism. This story is originally from Fox5, the DC affiliate. They do good work.

(Iím less impressed by FNCís evening opinion programming, but thatís different.)
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Old 07-13-2019, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
"The Satanic Temple's Arizona Chapter says, as it makes its requests, it's apparent that religious discrimination is rampant.

"What weíre seeing in the United States with the term 'religious liberty,' what it really means is Christian supremacy," said de Haan, attorney for the Temple. "They really have no concern with liberty for everybody, only liberty for themselves and those that they like."


Sometimes a Devils Advocate is needed to remind us of the separation of church and state.

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Old 07-13-2019, 12:23 AM
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Irrelevant. Reservations for using the common area can be made for birthdays, weddings, funerals, etc. The subject matter to reserve the common area really does not matter.
They regularily had at least three different activities planned for the common area. If the landlord were to accommodate all the major religions, the common area would be booked 7 days every week. There would be no way to accommodate the events in other tenants may want to use the common area for.

Apparently this Pastor and his flock became more than the other tenants could tolerate. He does have the option of renting a commercial space or the local church he is apparently affiliated with.





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Old 07-13-2019, 12:54 AM
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Wouldn’t be surprised if this whole ordeal is because the guy is a Lutheran Minister and some of the tenants are a different denomination.

Today’s Elderly can be quite fascist in practice.
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Old 07-13-2019, 02:18 AM
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When Dad bought out here it was orange groves far as the eye could see . It was quiet except for the winter when fans would blow to keep things from freezing.
Eventually some of the orange groves were cut down and wineries came in and bars in them along with their music which for us was terrible noise , then another and another and another. during 4th of July there are 4 -5 bars going at the same time with different noise coming from each , RATTLING our windows by the way. most shut down at 9 PM but not all and some go in to 12am
I know many of the neighbors, and most don't like it.
But the money wineries make pays taxes the city enjoys, so who is serving who ?
I was thinking of setting up PA and playing the 1812 overture with live cannon. What do you suppose would be the response ?
It is not actually my nature to do that sort of thing, but the problem is the complete lack of consideration .Not only for the neighbors but even one another .
No one asked permission to put 4-5 bars and live bands 500 feet from my house.
One is a B&B that does wedding and parties till midnight sometimes .
The drunks that leave these places create hazards of their own on the way to the next bar. And this insanity is not just here . when I lived in the mountains the had October fest that lasted September to November with a surplus of drunks on the highway. The city made out well with taxes and drunk fines . An it's noise disrupted the surrounding neighbors as well.
So how many drunks are result of Bible studies ?
Or Mary K home sales , or Tupper wear parties,
I agree consideration should be paramount regarding neighborhoods .
I don't particularly care for big get togethers ,I much prefer meeting people individually in coffee shops and restaurants maintaining the liberty to escape .
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Old 07-13-2019, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Central Scrutinizer View Post
They regularily had at least three different activities planned for the common area.
1st, Not sure that is true.

2nd, not against the lease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Central Scrutinizer View Post
If the landlord were to accommodate all the major religions, the common area would be booked 7 days every week.
1st, that's a big if. A hypothetical problem is really, not problem at all.

2nd, the reality is most common areas in most of these building are vacant. Being used is what common areas are for.

3rd, the article in the OP said the conflict has moved beyond the common area. All you focus on is hypothetical problems in the common area because you know it is the stronger argument.

I doubt the couples federal law suit is exclusively about the common area. The article in the OP said they could get evicted for merely continuing the Bible Study in their own private apartment. This will not stand up in court.
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Old 07-14-2019, 08:22 AM
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At first glance, this seems like an oh no. But they abused the situation. It wasn't just a little Bible study gathering at their apt. They took over the common community area and held counselings and such....to the point that the people with the scheduled birthday parties were not allowed to use the common room for them. From the eviction notice they received, it seems they weren't allowing scheduled events to happen. Their ministry was trumping all else at the apt/condo/whatever. The community room was FOR the community, yet they were treating it as it belonged only to them...and this is where it became an issue. If it had been a once a week, scheduled to be held in the community room, event, they wouldn't be dealing with this. But because they treated the community room as their personal office space/meeting room, and because of the traffic and the overuse/abuse....the people in and over the apt complex are done with this couple and their church gatherings....and done with the crazy amount of people going in and out.

I don't see this as a case of religious persecution, but rather religious people overstepping. And yeah, I'm like, how can they not even hold a study in their very own home? But I think their lack of common decency is why they are being restricted from holding things in their home. The apt complex is basically stating that at this point, it's time to move this elsewhere. They see it as a business or a job....vs just a gathering of a few people to read the Bible for a bit here and there. I've been a part of countless Bible studies/small groups in people's apt's, homes, neighborhoods, and even in some neighborhood community rooms....and we have never ever had this issue. But then we also weren't running a church 7 days a week from those places. And that's what this sounds like has happened.
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Old 07-14-2019, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JenFred View Post
They took over the common community area and held counselings and such....to the point that the people with the scheduled birthday parties were not allowed to use the common room for them. ...But then we also weren't running a church 7 days a week from those places. And that's what this sounds like has happened.
Where did you read this?
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Old 07-14-2019, 10:29 AM
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One of the other posters did, essentially say "They should have allowed it because my wife's building did".

Point being, big difference between PUBLIC and PRIVATE property. A park is public property. A community room in a building is not. Public use is permitted in the room but it is not public.

Public property, have fun, knock yourself out. I have done MANY evangelistic outreaches on public property (medians). Very seldom had a problem and even the police understood I had a right to use it as long as I was not touching cars, interfering with traffic, or accepting money. So I have pretty much a free pass to parade up and down that median with the Free Bibles sign.

Private property: like a store parking lot or this common room, you are only allowed to do what they let you do. They might let you do baptisms and daily church. Or they may say 1-2 times a week only during reasonable hours only. It is up to THE OWNER. THE OWNER decides the rules. Not the tenants.

This is basic evangelism 101. It also goes to property rights. Many Christians think "I can do whatever I want where ever I want because I am doing God's will". "Gods will" does not trump property rights. You have to respect those rights.

I have, and have had store owners come out and bring me drinks, then give me a discount when I went in for food after I was done, ask for Bibles to put on their counter, etc. I have had other property owners stand on their property glaring at me like they'd like to melt me with a glance. It depends on the owner. When I broke this rule, I have been banned from one property because I gave away a booklet about Jesus. He said "Don't you ever come back" and I haven't. It is his property, he is muslim, so I won't go there. He isn't handing out stuff on my property so I can respect that.

I have been on both ends of it and it is far better to be on the side of respecting the property owner. If you are respectful and considerate you are far more likely to get more accommodations than if you are not.
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Old 07-14-2019, 10:34 AM
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One of the other posters did, essentially say "They should have allowed it because my wife's building did".
I don't think so. I am the one who said my wife works at a similar building. The common area is almost always empty and they have church service posted to accommodate the senior citizens who cannot get out.

(FYI, the pastor who is conducting the church service is not a resident.)
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Old 07-14-2019, 10:43 AM
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In my little town, we had some sick puppy go around and place "Chick tract"s inside of the other reading material in the waiting rooms of various professional offices, my CPA, the Quest Lab, and other places in town. Sick stuff, where someone's kid would find them as you waited for an appointment.

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Old 07-14-2019, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Central Scrutinizer View Post
There may be some valid problems if other Tenants are not allowed to use a common area or their peaceful enjoyment of a common area is interfered with. The couple should be able to hold small private studies in their own unit.

I tried to research this to find a copy of the eviction notice, but it is unavailable so only one side of the story is being told.

Well here it is. Seems they were monopolizing the common area for multiple events every week. They had the general public attending. And there are apparently rules.

https://firstliberty.org/wp-content/...e_Redacted.pdf
Peter, in the pdf linked above is where there is info on why they were told to stop.
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