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Old 03-08-2020, 06:09 PM
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The Sunday of Orthodoxy is the first Sunday of Great Lent. The dominant theme of this Sunday since 843 has been that of the victory of the icons. In that year the iconoclastic controversy, which had raged on and off since 726, was finally laid to rest, and icons and their veneration were restored on the first Sunday in Lent. Ever since, this Sunday has been commemorated as the "Triumph of Orthodoxy."

At the conclusion of the Divine Liturgy, a service is conducted in commemoration of the affirmations of the Seventh Ecumenical Council in 787 and the restoration of the use of icons in 843. Orthodox faithful carry icons in a procession, while the clergy offer petitions for the people, civil authorities, and those who have reposed in the faith.

After the recitation of the Nicene Creed, Anathemas against the Christian Faith are proclaimed by the clergy and acknowledged by all the faithful.

From the service:
“This is the faith of the apostles! This is the faith of the fathers! This is the Orthodox faith! This faith has established the universe!

Furthermore, we accept and confirm the councils of the holy fathers, and their traditions and writings which are agreeable to divine revelation.

And though the enemies of Orthodoxy oppose this providence and the saving revelation of the Lord, yet the Lord has considered the reproaches of His servants, for He mocks those who blaspheme His Glory, and has challenged the enemies of Orthodoxy and put them to flight!

As we therefore bless and praise those who have obeyed the divine revelation and have fought for it; so we reject and anathematize those who oppose this truth, if while waiting for their return and repentance, they refuse to turn again to the Lord; and in this we follow the sacred tradition of the ancient Church, holding fast to her traditions.

To those who deny the existence of God, and assert that the world is self-existing, and that all things in it occur by chance, and not by the providence of God, Anathema!

To those who say that God is not spirit, but flesh; or that He is not just, merciful, wise and all-knowing, and utter similar blasphemies, Anathema!

To those who dare to say that the Son of God and also the Holy Spirit are not one in essence and of equal honor with the Father, and confess that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not one God, Anathema!

To those who foolishly say that the coming of the Son of God into the world in the flesh, and His voluntary passion, death, and resurrection were not necessary for our salvation and the cleansing of sins, Anathema!

To those who reject the grace of redemption preached by the Gospel as the only means of our justification before God, Anathema!

To those who dare to say that the all-pure Virgin Mary was not virgin before giving birth, during birthgiving, and after her child-birth, Anathema!

To those who do not believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the prophets and apostles, and by them taught us the true way to eternal salvation, and confirmed this by miracles, and now dwells in the hearts of all true and faithful Christians, and teaches them in all truth, Anathema!

To those who reject the immortality of the soul, the end of time, the future judgment, and eternal reward for virtue and condemnation for sin, Anathema!

To those who reject all the holy mysteries held by the Church of Christ, Anathema!

To those who reject the Councils of the holy fathers and their traditions, which are agreeable to divine revelation and kept piously by the Orthodox Catholic Church, Anathema!

To those who mock and profane the holy images and relics which the holy Church receives as revelations of God's work and of those pleasing to Him, to inspire their beholders with piety, and to arouse them to follow these examples; and to those who say that they are idols, Anathema!

To those who dare to say and teach that our Lord Jesus Christ did not descend to earth, but only seemed to; or that He did not descend to the earth and become incarnate only once, but many times, and who likewise deny that the true Wisdom of the Father is His only-begotten Son, Anathema!

To the followers of the occult, spiritualists, wizards, and all who do not believe in the one God, but honor the demons; or who do not humbly give their lives over to God, but strive to learn the future through sorcery, Anathema!

But to all who have fought for Orthodoxy, by their words, by their writings, by their teaching, by their sufferings and religious life, as its defenders and allies, the Church of Christ annually commemorates and proclaims, Memory Eternal!
...

To all Orthodox Christians rightly holding the saving faith, and living in obedience to the Church of Christ, grant, O Lord, peace, quiet, prosperity, and abundance of the fruit of the earth, and keep them for Many Years!

Glorify all these, O Holy Trinity, and confirm them in the right faith even to the end; and convert the enemies and those ignorant of the Orthodox faith and Christ's Church, that they may come to know Your eternal Truth, through the intercessions of our most holy Lady, the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary, and of all the saints."

Amen.
Kyrie Eleison.
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Old 03-08-2020, 06:16 PM
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And you all bang on other denominations
And you you have this nonsense ?????
I suppose, enjoy your denominational peculiarity is in order
I Heart icons or whatever.....
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Old 03-08-2020, 06:33 PM
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In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:

"Illumine with the light of grace all apostates from the Christian Faith, and those blinded by pernicious heresies, and draw them to Thyself, and unite them to Thy Holy, Apostolic, catholic Church."

Kyrie Eleison.
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Old 03-08-2020, 06:57 PM
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I will go back to 33 A.D.
The O.C. aka the Original Church
There were no icons or any of this denominational folderol
Enjoy whatever you all made up
I would be more sympathetic if you Ortho dudes were as supportive of other denominational traditions
But, no, you all bang on everyone else
I Heart icons
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Old 03-09-2020, 10:32 AM
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I will go back to 33 A.D.
The O.C. aka the Original Church
There were no icons or any of this denominational folderol
Enjoy whatever you all made up
Well, there was that original icon, folded and found in the tomb that first morning following the resurrection. The veil of Manopello, formerly in the Vatican before it was sacked by the Holy Roman Empire, probably brought there by the Venetians who thought it would be more profitable to loot Constantinople than fight Islam during the fourth Crusade. Prior to that, in Edessa, and prior to that, in the “empty” tomb on that first Pascha. While Jesus wasn’t in that tomb, the most important relic of Christendom was. So important in fact that after the Vatican was rebuilt, the pope commissioned a fake Veronica to display to pilgrims.



“ 1The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 2Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. 3Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. 4So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. 5And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. 6Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, 7And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. 8Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. 9For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.” (John ch 20).

The belief was not just sparked by the empty tomb (which could have been the work of grave robbers), but by seeing the face of Immanuel on the burial face cloth. In fact, Mary, who first arrived but did not go in, thought that it was the work of grave robbers. John 20:2 says as much. The other disciple had gotten there first, peeked in, and already verified that it was empty (John 20:5). So when he went in he saw something else besides the fact that it was empty and believed in the resurrection.

We are not Jews, who hold to a partial revelation of God the Father without understanding his triune nature. We are not Muslims who hold no revelation and claim to worship a unitary deity. We are Christians who worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Sprit. Remember, Jesus said “He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). Imagery is central to Christianity. Jesus left us the first one.
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Old 03-09-2020, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
Well, there was the original icon, folded and found in the tomb that first morning following the resurrection.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mxDTNaJAwMo

“ 1The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 2Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. 3Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. 4So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter,and came first to the sepulchre. 5And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. 6Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, 7And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. 8Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. 9For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.”

The belief was not just sparked by the empty tomb (which could have been the work of grave robbers), but by seeing the face of immanuel on the burial face cloth. In fact, Mary, who first arrived but did not go in, thought that it was the work of grave robbers.

That was a piece of cloth ... not an icon (unless, that is, folks revere it as more than a piece of cloth).

Leviticus 26:1, "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God."

Exodus 20:4, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

1 John 5:21, "Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen."

1 Corinthians 10:14, "Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry."

What others do or don't do is between themselves and the Judge we'll all have to face someday. I'm simply presenting what Scripture has to say on the subject. Take it or leave it.

Far more important that the cloth found in the tomb was the fact that the Body of Christ was absent!!
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Old 03-09-2020, 11:59 AM
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Christian images are not idols.

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I'm simply presenting what Scripture has to say on the subject. Take it or leave it.

Far more important that the cloth found in the tomb was the fact that the Body of Christ was absent!!
...and yet the absence of the body of Christ was not enough to cause them to believe that Pascha morning. He saw something else once he went into the tomb that caused him to believe in the resurrection. As far as scripture, I just presented the clearest dissection of John 20 that you’ll ever hear and you’ve apparently chosen to leave it.
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Old 03-09-2020, 12:31 PM
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That was a piece of cloth ... not an icon (unless, that is, folks revere it as more than a piece of cloth).

Leviticus 26:1, "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God."

Exodus 20:4, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

1 John 5:21, "Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen."

1 Corinthians 10:14, "Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry."

What others do or don't do is between themselves and the Judge we'll all have to face someday. I'm simply presenting what Scripture has to say on the subject. Take it or leave it.

Far more important that the cloth found in the tomb was the fact that the Body of Christ was absent!!
If these verses are in your Bible …
Exodus 25:18-19:
And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.
Numbers 21:8-9:
And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.
1 Kings 6:23-29:
In the inner sanctuary [Solomon] made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. Five cubits was the length of one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the length of the other wing of the cherub; it was ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other. The other cherub also measured ten cubits; both cherubim had the same measure and the same form. The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was that of the other cherub.

He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house; and the wings of the cherubim were spread out so that a wing of one touched the one wall, and a wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; their other wings touched each other in the middle of the house. And he overlaid the cherubim with gold.

He carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms.
1 Kings 7:
[25]It stood upon twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east; the sea was set upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward.
[26] Its thickness was a handbreadth; and its brim was made like the brim of a cup, like the flower of a lily; it held two thousand baths.
[27] [Hiram] also made the ten stands of bronze; each stand was four cubits long, four cubits wide, and three cubits high.
[28] This was the construction of the stands: they had panels, and the panels were set in the frames
[29] and on the panels that were set in the frames were lions, oxen, and cherubim. Upon the frames, both above and below the lions and oxen, there were wreaths of beveled work.
[30] Moreover each stand had four bronze wheels and axles of bronze; and at the four corners were supports for a laver. The supports were cast, with wreaths at the side of each.
[31] Its opening was within a crown which projected upward one cubit; its opening was round, as a pedestal is made, a cubit and a half deep. At its opening there were carvings; and its panels were square, not round.
[32] And the four wheels were underneath the panels; the axles of the wheels were of one piece with the stands; and the height of a wheel was a cubit and a half.
[33] The wheels were made like a chariot wheel; their axles, their rims, their spokes, and their hubs, were all cast.
[34] There were four supports at the four corners of each stand; the supports were of one piece with the stands.
[35] And on the top of the stand there was a round band half a cubit high; and on the top of the stand its stays and its panels were of one piece with it.
[36] And on the surfaces of its stays and on its panels, he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, according to the space of each, with wreaths round about.
[37] After this manner he made the ten stands; all of them were cast alike, of the same measure and the same form.
[38] And he made ten lavers of bronze; each laver held forty baths, each laver measured four cubits, and there was a laver for each of the ten stands.
[39] And he set the stands, five on the south side of the house, and five on the north side of the house; and he set the sea on the southeast corner of the house.
[40] Hiram also made the pots, the shovels, and the basins. So Hiram finished all the work that he did for King Solomon on the house of the LORD:
[41] the two pillars, the two bowls of the capitals that were on the tops of the pillars, and the two networks to cover the two bowls of the capitals that were on the tops of the pillars;
[42] and the four hundred pomegranates for the two networks, two rows of pomegranates for each network, to cover the two bowls of the capitals that were upon the pillars;
[43] the ten stands, and the ten lavers upon the stands;
[44] and the one sea, and the twelve oxen underneath the sea.
[45] Now the pots, the shovels, and the basins, all these vessels in the house of the LORD, which Hiram made for King Solomon, were of burnished bronze.
… it stands to reason that there must be an understanding which escapes you of those verses you cited.
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Old 03-09-2020, 01:16 PM
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The belief was not just sparked by the empty tomb (which could have been the work of grave robbers), but by seeing the face of Immanuel on the burial face cloth. In fact, Mary, who first arrived but did not go in, thought that it was the work of grave robbers. In fact, John 20:8 says as much. The other disciple had gotten there first, peeked in and already verified that it was empty. So when he went in he saw something else and believed.

We are not Jews, who hold to a partial revelation of God the Father without understanding his triune nature. We are not Muslims who hold no revelation and claim to worship a unitary deity. We are Christians who worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Sprit. Remember, Jesus said “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Imagery is central to Christianity. Jesus left us the first one.
Wonderful. This is what I believe happened. They looked upon another miracle of the Teacher and believed once again, stronger than before. Must have been an amazing moment to witness that morning.
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Old 03-09-2020, 01:23 PM
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Christian images are not idols.



...and yet the absence of the body of Christ was not enough to cause them to believe that Pascha morning. He saw something else once he went into the tomb that caused him to believe in the resurrection. As far as scripture, I just presented the clearest dissection of John 20 that you’ll ever hear and you’ve apparently chosen to leave it.

The Bible specifically says that we aren't to create images of anything in heaven, on earth, or in the water and that we aren't to "bow down" to them. When I was attending Orthodox services I saw people bowing to images all the time. Before services and after. I also saw them kissing the hem of the priest's robe. It's one of the reasons I stopped attending. I've also seen Catholic parishioners bowing to the statue of Mary on numerous occasions. The practice of bowing to images is strictly forbidden in Scripture but I'm not the Judge of a person's soul. Others will have to answer for their actions.
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Old 03-09-2020, 02:05 PM
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The Bible specifically says that we aren't to create images of anything in heaven, on earth, or in the water
Ever used a camera? This is the sort of uninformed absolutist thinking Muslims engage in.
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Old 03-09-2020, 02:08 PM
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If these verses are in your Bible …
Exodus 25:18-19:
And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.
Numbers 21:8-9:
And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.
1 Kings 6:23-29:
In the inner sanctuary [Solomon] made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. Five cubits was the length of one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the length of the other wing of the cherub; it was ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other. The other cherub also measured ten cubits; both cherubim had the same measure and the same form. The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was that of the other cherub.

He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house; and the wings of the cherubim were spread out so that a wing of one touched the one wall, and a wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; their other wings touched each other in the middle of the house. And he overlaid the cherubim with gold.

He carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms.
1 Kings 7:
[25]It stood upon twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east; the sea was set upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward.
[26] Its thickness was a handbreadth; and its brim was made like the brim of a cup, like the flower of a lily; it held two thousand baths.
[27] [Hiram] also made the ten stands of bronze; each stand was four cubits long, four cubits wide, and three cubits high.
[28] This was the construction of the stands: they had panels, and the panels were set in the frames
[29] and on the panels that were set in the frames were lions, oxen, and cherubim. Upon the frames, both above and below the lions and oxen, there were wreaths of beveled work.
[30] Moreover each stand had four bronze wheels and axles of bronze; and at the four corners were supports for a laver. The supports were cast, with wreaths at the side of each.
[31] Its opening was within a crown which projected upward one cubit; its opening was round, as a pedestal is made, a cubit and a half deep. At its opening there were carvings; and its panels were square, not round.
[32] And the four wheels were underneath the panels; the axles of the wheels were of one piece with the stands; and the height of a wheel was a cubit and a half.
[33] The wheels were made like a chariot wheel; their axles, their rims, their spokes, and their hubs, were all cast.
[34] There were four supports at the four corners of each stand; the supports were of one piece with the stands.
[35] And on the top of the stand there was a round band half a cubit high; and on the top of the stand its stays and its panels were of one piece with it.
[36] And on the surfaces of its stays and on its panels, he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, according to the space of each, with wreaths round about.
[37] After this manner he made the ten stands; all of them were cast alike, of the same measure and the same form.
[38] And he made ten lavers of bronze; each laver held forty baths, each laver measured four cubits, and there was a laver for each of the ten stands.
[39] And he set the stands, five on the south side of the house, and five on the north side of the house; and he set the sea on the southeast corner of the house.
[40] Hiram also made the pots, the shovels, and the basins. So Hiram finished all the work that he did for King Solomon on the house of the LORD:
[41] the two pillars, the two bowls of the capitals that were on the tops of the pillars, and the two networks to cover the two bowls of the capitals that were on the tops of the pillars;
[42] and the four hundred pomegranates for the two networks, two rows of pomegranates for each network, to cover the two bowls of the capitals that were upon the pillars;
[43] the ten stands, and the ten lavers upon the stands;
[44] and the one sea, and the twelve oxen underneath the sea.
[45] Now the pots, the shovels, and the basins, all these vessels in the house of the LORD, which Hiram made for King Solomon, were of burnished bronze.
… it stands to reason that there must be an understanding which escapes you of those verses you cited.

When God commands something to be done ... it's done. When He commands that something is NOT to be done. We don't do it. See the difference? Show me Scripture where God commands man to create an image of Mary then to bow down to. I'll patiently await your lengthy list.
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Old 03-09-2020, 02:24 PM
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Ever used a camera? This is the sort of uninformed absolutist thinking Muslims engage in.

I have used a camera but I never worshiped or bowed down to the final product.
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Old 03-09-2020, 02:55 PM
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I have used a camera but I never worshiped or bowed down to the final product.
I'll bet that you respect and honor the loved one's represented by any photo or portrait you possess. I also will bet that respect and honor will even extend to the photo itself on occasion. You certainly will not find me daring to urinate and/or defecate on photos of your loved ones while in your presence.
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Old 03-09-2020, 03:05 PM
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I'll bet that you respect and honor the loved one's represented by any photo or portrait you possess. I also will bet that respect and honor will even extend to the photo itself on occasion. You certainly will not find me daring to urinate and/or defecate on photos of your loved ones while in your presence.

I don't bow down to any image whether it's an image of a loved one or not.
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When God commands something to be done ... it's done. When He commands that something is NOT to be done. We don't do it. See the difference?
No, I don't. How do you allow for the scripture passages I cited not to be at odds with your particular understanding of the passages you cited?

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Show me Scripture where God commands man to create an image of Mary then to bow down to.
Show me why an explicit scriptural command is required in this regard.
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Old 03-09-2020, 03:25 PM
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I don't bow down to any image whether it's an image of a loved one or not.
The Saints are the clearest expressions of the Image of God in Man.

We do not bow to the image of the icon.

We do not bow even to the Saint that it is represented in the icon.

We bow to the Image of God that we see clear, alive and visible in the Saint because of his/her life and relationship with God. So when we bow to icons we bow directly to God, as if Jesus is there in front of us. This is a sign of profound reverence to God not an idolater activity as you so wrongly understood it.
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Old 03-09-2020, 03:32 PM
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No, I don't. How do you allow for the scripture passages I cited not to be at odds with your particular understanding of the passages you cited?



Show me why an explicit scriptural command is required in this regard.

I cited at least two important commands earlier.
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Old 03-09-2020, 03:34 PM
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The Saints are the clearest expressions of the Image of God in Man.

We do not bow to the image of the icon.

We do not bow even to the Saint that it is represented in the icon.

We bow to the Image of God that we see clear, alive and visible in the Saint because of his/her life and relationship with God. So when we bow to icons we bow directly to God, as if Jesus is there in front of us. This is a sign of profound reverence to God not an idolater activity as you so wrongly understood it.

As stated earlier ... I attended several Orthodox services in which people were not only bowing to pictures and statues but kissing them. What you're saying is that God didn't quite have it right when He forbade the creation of graven images. What you're saying is that it's okay as long as we see them as god. But that's sorta what I've been warning against all along.
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The Saints are the clearest expressions of the Image of God in Man.

We do not bow to the image of the icon.

We do not bow even to the Saint that it is represented in the icon.

We bow to the Image of God that we see clear, alive and visible in the Saint because of his/her life and relationship with God. So when we bow to icons we bow directly to God, as if Jesus is there in front of us. This is a sign of profound reverence to God not an idolater activity as you so wrongly understood it.
Why not to the saint? I've bowed to my Asian mother-in-law. Heck, those folks bow to everyone. The Bible gives accounts of people bowing to another person.
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