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Old 08-09-2019, 07:39 AM
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Socialism and Capitalism both suck. Socialism limits your freedom and takes your property, capitalism will crash when we run out of resources ( which ARE limited) because it requires indefinite population growth. That's the real reason ALL the politicians are not very much interested in stopping the illegals and others from coming here. Trump ( and others ) might say he wants to build a wall, but notice how little he has actually accomplished. Ain't going to happen because the U.S economy depends on population growth. It also depends on cheap energy
AND it depends on consumers willing to work hard to earn a lot of money to buy toys like that corvette. I am not one of those, never owned a new vehicle, and never bought a useless "toy" of any kind. Not willing to play their debt game. Not willing to work harder to have toys. If everyone thought like myself, the economy would crash. I am one of those people that has a credit card and not once payed a single fee , interest or fine. I actually get money back for purchase I made over the year. When I quit my job I put all my 401k into cash and spending it early. I don't believe in the system as it is. I don't trust it one bit. If everyone did what we are doing the system would crash. A system that can crash because lack of consumers of unnecessary things is not a great system either.

and when I say Capitalism , I mean Capitalism as it is currently in the U.S.

However, I have no alternative solution. Someone needs to invent a better economic system
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Old 08-09-2019, 07:37 PM
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Capitalism is actually based on traffic lights. That's because one of the bases of capitalism is private property, and that was brought about by force during the late Middle Ages as armed men working for some who thought themselves as possessing divine rights to rule enclosed plots of land that peasants commonly used. Eventually, they set up legal systems to legitimize ownership. Other bases, such as fiat currencies and corporations, came about from the same.

Interestingly enough, one can argue that the commonly used land by peasants is the basis of socialism.
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Old 08-09-2019, 07:47 PM
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The only economic system that's viable given limits to growth and severe environmental damage is one based on subsistence. But because people will always want more, then this is not likely, which means at some point economic output will peak and drop, leading to both higher birth rates due to poverty but also higher death rates due to lack of food, medicine, etc. War, the spread of disease, etc., will make matters worse.
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Old 08-09-2019, 10:17 PM
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The only economic system that's viable given limits to growth and severe environmental damage is one based on subsistence. But because people will always want more, then this is not likely, which means at some point economic output will peak and drop, leading to both higher birth rates due to poverty but also higher death rates due to lack of food, medicine, etc. War, the spread of disease, etc., will make matters worse.
The system you describe is also antithetical to the true Human Spirit. Communism/Socialism saps the Soul. The Communists gain great favor promoting a $15/hr minimum wage. What they don't tell you is they want that to also be a maximum wage. We can all be 'equal'!!

I have met sincere Men that feel aspiring to be an earthworm would be their highest human achievement. FOOLS/BLATHER!!!

Men are made to soar!!!!
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Old 08-09-2019, 10:25 PM
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Capitalism is actually based on traffic lights. That's because one of the bases of capitalism is private property, and that was brought about by force during the late Middle Ages as armed men working for some who thought themselves as possessing divine rights to rule enclosed plots of land that peasants commonly used. Eventually, they set up legal systems to legitimize ownership. Other bases, such as fiat currencies and corporations, came about from the same.

Interestingly enough, one can argue that the commonly used land by peasants is the basis of socialism.
Private property came about as a way of protecting one's efforts to improve and add value to land they possessed/occupied. What the H do 'traffic lights' have to do with anything???

Would you personally build a house, or farm, just to abandon it to 'locusts'? That is what humans become when they only 'take'!!!
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Old 08-10-2019, 06:32 PM
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The system you describe is also antithetical to the true Human Spirit. Communism/Socialism saps the Soul. The Communists gain great favor promoting a $15/hr minimum wage. What they don't tell you is they want that to also be a maximum wage. We can all be 'equal'!!

I have met sincere Men that feel aspiring to be an earthworm would be their highest human achievement. FOOLS/BLATHER!!!

Men are made to soar!!!!
Survivalists will disagree with you. I'll let you figure out why.
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Old 08-10-2019, 06:36 PM
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Private property came about as a way of protecting one's efforts to improve and add value to land they possessed/occupied. What the H do 'traffic lights' have to do with anything???

Would you personally build a house, or farm, just to abandon it to 'locusts'? That is what humans become when they only 'take'!!!
No, that's not true. Private property started with enclosures in England during the late Middle Ages.

About those traffic lights, scroll up to see the original message.

Finally, don't get confused: private property in this case refers to legal land ownership and not possession by force. Most are not aware that the former stemmed from the latter.
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Old 08-10-2019, 09:37 PM
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In the end, Tom really doesn't know.

Good lesson.
Trust you to get the leftist lack of knowledge dead right, and deny reality.

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How much of that Corvette was made by the China people.
Most of the metal, anyway.
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Old 08-11-2019, 07:38 AM
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The only economic system that's viable given limits to growth and severe environmental damage is one based on subsistence. But because people will always want more, then this is not likely, which means at some point economic output will peak and drop, leading to both higher birth rates due to poverty but also higher death rates due to lack of food, medicine, etc. War, the spread of disease, etc., will make matters worse.

and you have solid, documented proof this is true? Or was something you heard from a professor?

if you removed most of the government theft from the people, promoted innovation in industry output will continue to grow.

People keep basing predictions on current technology and keep getting it wrong.
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Old 08-11-2019, 06:09 PM
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and you have solid, documented proof this is true? Or was something you heard from a professor?

if you removed most of the government theft from the people, promoted innovation in industry output will continue to grow.

People keep basing predictions on current technology and keep getting it wrong.
Limits to growth projections from 1972 tracking real data during the next four decades:

Is Global Collapse Imminent? An Updated Comparison of The Limits to Growth with Historical Data

Similar conclusions on parts of this collapse have been made by multiple groups, including oil companies, banks, insurers, military and intelligence organizations, and more:

Peak Oil Reports

Similar has been raised concerning the effects of global warming, which was not factored in the 1972 projections for obvious reasons:

Catastrophe Modelling and Climate Change

Report on Effects of a Changing Climate to the Department of Defense

Those are just a few examples.

About your second point, the problem is partly caused by government theft, but not in the way most realize. I'll see if you can figure out why by reading this short article:

"The Fed's $16 Trillion Bailouts Under-Reported"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/traceyg...nder-reported/

Your last point is shared by the mainstream, which is why they make fun of survivalists.
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Old 08-12-2019, 05:26 AM
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Socialism and Capitalism both suck. Socialism limits your freedom and takes your property, capitalism will crash when we run out of resources ( which ARE limited) because it requires indefinite population growth. That's the real reason ALL the politicians are not very much interested in stopping the illegals and others from coming here. Trump ( and others ) might say he wants to build a wall, but notice how little he has actually accomplished. Ain't going to happen because the U.S economy depends on population growth. It also depends on cheap energy
AND it depends on consumers willing to work hard to earn a lot of money to buy toys like that corvette. I am not one of those, never owned a new vehicle, and never bought a useless "toy" of any kind. Not willing to play their debt game. Not willing to work harder to have toys. If everyone thought like myself, the economy would crash. I am one of those people that has a credit card and not once payed a single fee , interest or fine. I actually get money back for purchase I made over the year. When I quit my job I put all my 401k into cash and spending it early. I don't believe in the system as it is. I don't trust it one bit. If everyone did what we are doing the system would crash. A system that can crash because lack of consumers of unnecessary things is not a great system either.

and when I say Capitalism , I mean Capitalism as it is currently in the U.S.

However, I have no alternative solution. Someone needs to invent a better economic system
1) When we run out of resources we all die, whether it is under capitalism, socialism, or communism. Running out of resources is not just confined to capitalism. It is an issue under all economic systems. I find it interesting that many on the left are blaming Trump for not building the wall, but then out of their second face are bringing lawsuits in the most left leaning courts, and doing everything they can in Congress to stop him from building it.
2) The US in not free market capitalist. We are more of a socialist capitalism. Trump has removed a lot of regulation and freed up the economy from some of the socialistic policies of past administrations and look what happened to our economy. It has improved dramatically. Anybody can take a horrible situation and make it better. It takes skill to take a good situation and make it better. Trump has done the latter. Obama did the former.

A big hindrance to our economy right now is that many of the marginally employed have bought the lie that government will provide everything for them and they don't need to prepare or educate themselves (that is the root of the $15 /hr movement). As a result many people did not obtain skills or abilities that pay worth a crap. Now they are being told to get those skills and abilities. If they did the unemployment rate would be much lower and pay would be going up much faster. There are a lot of skilled jobs out there for those willing to put forth the effort to obtain the skill to land the jobs.
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Old 08-12-2019, 10:47 AM
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I just tell them, without capitalism, you wouldn't have that cell phone you always have your face glued to.
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:06 AM
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Yes, but that doesn't counter my point. If any, it introduces one reason why capitalism requires continuous growth. The other is maximization of profit for investors, especially given competition.

In short, everyone wants to earn more not just to pay for basic needs (which are also becoming more expensive) but to gain middle class conveniences. That's why in the same businesses they want to earn more or receive better returns on their investment.

In order to pay for increasing wages, businesses have to sell more goods and services, which means their employees have to be more productive, and at a level higher than their wage increases. That's because the increasing profit benefits investors. This is done through combinations of automation and finding out ways to make people work harder.

Meanwhile, the same wage earners are expected to buy from the same businesses. That's because businesses can only profit if what is produced is sold. And since more is being produced, then more has to be sold.

Hence, the need for marketing, "new and improved" products, planned obsolescence, etc.

But goods and services draw from material resources and energy, and ultimately, these lead to diminishing returns and pollution. Meanwhile, even as lower birth rates are driven by increasing prosperity (as basic needs are met and more avail of middle class conveniences), businesses expect people to increase their productivity and their consumption rate, with profits generated from these businesses concentrated among a few who want to re-invest the same profits for even more production and consumption.

How long will this arrangement last? The mainstream teaches teens and those in their twenties that it will last forever, and that even socialists will give in and become part of the consumer spending society. But a small group argues that it will not last, and only because of physics. That is, there is no way that a limited biosphere can continue providing resources and energy to a demanding population indefinitely. That's small group has been generally prepping and expecting systemic catastrophe involving combinations of catastrophes amplifying each other.
capitalism doesnt require continuous growth.
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:40 AM
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All of these are part of free market capitalism, where market forces dominate. The catch is that with capitalism, more wealth is concentrated among a few to the point that they eventually take over. That's why today much of the U.S. economy is controlled only by a few.

Tariffs, together with border control and other forms of government regulations, counter free market capitalism. Right-wingers refer to such moves as socialist.
Unfortunately markets are never truly free. So who is to say that US tariffs are bad while chinese currency manipulation is good? Or that chinese keeping their markets closed to US companies is good while the US opens its markets wide to chinese goods.

Authoritarianism is extremely efficient and can beat out democracy in the short run. In the long run it collapses faster because it is too dependent on the competence of too few people.
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:42 AM
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Socialism and Capitalism both suck. Socialism limits your freedom and takes your property, capitalism will crash when we run out of resources ( which ARE limited) because it requires indefinite population growth. That's the real reason ALL the politicians are not very much interested in stopping the illegals and others from coming here. Trump ( and others ) might say he wants to build a wall, but notice how little he has actually accomplished. Ain't going to happen because the U.S economy depends on population growth. It also depends on cheap energy
AND it depends on consumers willing to work hard to earn a lot of money to buy toys like that corvette. I am not one of those, never owned a new vehicle, and never bought a useless "toy" of any kind. Not willing to play their debt game. Not willing to work harder to have toys. If everyone thought like myself, the economy would crash. I am one of those people that has a credit card and not once payed a single fee , interest or fine. I actually get money back for purchase I made over the year. When I quit my job I put all my 401k into cash and spending it early. I don't believe in the system as it is. I don't trust it one bit. If everyone did what we are doing the system would crash. A system that can crash because lack of consumers of unnecessary things is not a great system either.

and when I say Capitalism , I mean Capitalism as it is currently in the U.S.

However, I have no alternative solution. Someone needs to invent a better economic system
Capitalism as it is in the US does not require growth. What requires growth is all the socialism. Socialism is a voracious beast that consumes more than it produces sucking the capitalist side dry and forcing growth to keep up with the overspending.
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Old 08-12-2019, 02:15 PM
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1) When we run out of resources we all die, whether it is under capitalism, socialism, or communism. Running out of resources is not just confined to capitalism. It is an issue under all economic systems. I find it interesting that many on the left are blaming Trump for not building the wall, but then out of their second face are bringing lawsuits in the most left leaning courts, and doing everything they can in Congress to stop him from building it.
2) The US in not free market capitalist. We are more of a socialist capitalism. Trump has removed a lot of regulation and freed up the economy from some of the socialistic policies of past administrations and look what happened to our economy. It has improved dramatically. Anybody can take a horrible situation and make it better. It takes skill to take a good situation and make it better. Trump has done the latter. Obama did the former.

A big hindrance to our economy right now is that many of the marginally employed have bought the lie that government will provide everything for them and they don't need to prepare or educate themselves (that is the root of the $15 /hr movement). As a result many people did not obtain skills or abilities that pay worth a crap. Now they are being told to get those skills and abilities. If they did the unemployment rate would be much lower and pay would be going up much faster. There are a lot of skilled jobs out there for those willing to put forth the effort to obtain the skill to land the jobs.

If the population did not grow ( or better yet shrank) , we would not need to run out of resources. Non renewable ones maybe but not stuff like food, because you can grow more. If you have more people than you can feed, you will have problems obviously.

Yes, U.S. already has socialism, ( I don't think any country has 100 % free market economy without taxes and rules, or is there?) but that's the point. The point is the U.S. economy depends on population growth. If the population stays the same or shrinks the whole economic system fails, because GDP needs to go up. Make sense? The same amount of people are not going to buy more and more stuff they don't need in half the cases , so you need more people. Example housing: if you have no new people, you build very few new houses. We live in a house that is about 70 years old. We will fix what falls apart. Many people do that. Same with cars. You can drive a used car for all your life . It's like that with almost anything.
There might be some new technology everyone wants to be like Iphones that nobody had 20 years ago, but there isn't enough of that to grow the economy. If the economy doesn't grow, the stock market goes down.
So they need more people. The result is the illegals are being let in, and refugees and anyone else that can come here and buy stuff.

As far as everyone getting educated and getting well paying jobs, I don't think that's possible. First, not everyone is intelligent enough . Second there are just not enough high paying jobs around. You say "get educated" but do you realize how ignorant a lot of the population is? Most are too stupid to pass high school algebra without trouble. How are these people going to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, pharmacists, or successful business people? Not
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Old 08-12-2019, 07:26 PM
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I just tell them, without capitalism, you wouldn't have that cell phone you always have your face glued to.
Made in China, too.
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Old 08-12-2019, 07:27 PM
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capitalism doesnt require continuous growth.
Actually, it does. That's why it's called "capitalism." The profits earned from sales are reinvested to expand production: that's your "capital."
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Old 08-12-2019, 07:33 PM
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Unfortunately markets are never truly free. So who is to say that US tariffs are bad while chinese currency manipulation is good? Or that chinese keeping their markets closed to US companies is good while the US opens its markets wide to chinese goods.

Authoritarianism is extremely efficient and can beat out democracy in the short run. In the long run it collapses faster because it is too dependent on the competence of too few people.
They start off as free, and then some become richer than others and eventually take over. That's also the result of capitalism, where more wealth is concentrated among a few.

U.S. tarriffs are bad for the U.S. because of the Triffin dilemma. It was not only China but also Japan and the Asian tiger economies that practiced protectionism.

China, Japan, and other countries have governments that are essentially authoritarian. The U.S. has similar, except that it's Wall Street that calls the shots.
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Old 08-12-2019, 07:37 PM
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Capitalism as it is in the US does not require growth. What requires growth is all the socialism. Socialism is a voracious beast that consumes more than it produces sucking the capitalist side dry and forcing growth to keep up with the overspending.
Actually, both require growth, as socialism also employs state capitalism. In fact, the U.S. itself is a mixed economy, i.e., combining private and public corporations.

Capitalism in the U.S. or anywhere else requires growth. That's why companies want to see not just profitability but even increasing profitability given competition. The government itself wants to see increasing GDP. The same goes for households in the same country: they want their income and returns on investment to grow.
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