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Old 09-16-2019, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
They happen to be an atheist.



If they are an atheist, then there is no point asking them if they believe in God, right?
True atheists are rare. Most who call themselves atheists actually do believe in something - whether its what they would call a god, a power, or a force. The question is to open a discussion of what they think.

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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
Just as obviously, the answer is no. Death is the natural end to life. Why in the world would you suppose an atheist would think it is easier for life to go on forever? Near death or coming back to life stories aside, life has a 100% death rate.
This question is a way to get a person - who thinks they are an atheist - to actually consider the concept of eternity. If you don't get it, I can't help you.


Don't troll me again.
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Old 09-16-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
True atheists are rare. Most who call themselves atheists actually do believe in something - whether its what they would call a god, a power, or a force. The question is to open a discussion of what they think.

This question is a way to get a person - who thinks they are an atheist - to actually consider the concept of eternity. If you don't get it, I can't help you.

Don't troll me again.
I'm not trolling you. The OP question is what would you tell an atheist is a reason/rational to be a Christian. The OP question is not to psycho-analyze them in projecting what they actually think.

However, that brings up an insightful point seen in the other thread numerous times; making up words to mean whatever you want! A hypothetical person is defined in the OP as being an atheist. Your starting point to the whole discussion is to deny the foundation of the conversation! If I did not know you better, I would think you are trolling.

Moreover, this word play apparently is how you approach a real person who self-defines as an atheist. They really do believe in God and really do believe in an after-life. This changes the question, in practice, from what do you say to a non-believer, to what do you say to a believer.

Beyond the word play is the psychological analysis that upon first meeting, Christians know other people better than they do. (Not exactly the height of humility.) I've encountered this proselytizing psycho-babble BS many times and wondered if Christians go to some kind of seminar to learn this stuff. Classic exchange:
Atheist: I don't believe in God or that Jesus was God.
Seminar Christian: You bring up an interesting question.
Atheist: I did not ask a question.
Seminar Christian: (Ignoring what was said) Everyone believes in something - whether its what they would call a god, a power, or a force.
Atheist: I don't believe in God. Of course, what you call beliefs, I call conclusions in a comprehensive world view. For instance, I believe in truth, justice and that the nature of humans is to be free, i.e., Free Will.
Seminar Christian: (Ignoring what was said) If not - then do you believe that you will live forever?
Atheist: No, I believe death is the natural end of life.
Seminar Christian: (Ignoring what was said) If not, then do you think it's easier to believe in life ending permanently, or going on forever?
Atheist: <sighs. Begins to realize Seminar Christian has not listened to one thing she said.> It's much easier to believe in life ending permanently.
Seminar Christian: I just ask these questions to get you to consider the concept of eternity.
Atheist: (Realizes she's being played as Seminar Christian's sense of superiority is revealed and is now angry and betrayed as the conversation unfolded under false pretenses). I have thought of these concepts and reject them. Bye-bye.
Seminar Christian: (Walks smugly away, thinking God's work was done and planted seeds leading the atheist to God)
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Old 09-16-2019, 05:14 PM
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I would say, "what do you have to lose?" If the Christian is wrong and you're right, no big deal. You both die and cease to exist. But if the Christian is right, do you want to spend eternity in hell?"

This is essentially Pascal's Wager. An interesting read.

There are criticisms to this reasoning which are listed in the link so I won't repeat them here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager
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Old Yesterday, 07:46 AM
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This is essentially Pascal's Wager. An interesting read.

There are criticisms to this reasoning which are listed in the link so I won't repeat them here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager
There is a fence in front of you. What do you do?

1 Do you assume that there are no consequences if you jump it because you assume it is not actively guarded by camera, or dog, or shutgun owner, or lady with a phone, or etc.

2. Or you look for a proper gate so you can stay lawful?

That fence is "Death". The proper gate is only one and it is established by the owner of that gate not by you. The gate has rules. First rule is to believe there is an owner. Second you must establish communication with the owner or at least a gate keeper before you can pass through the gate.

If you jump the fence or crush through it, there will be consequences. If you establish contact with the owner of the property or at least the gate keeper and respect their rules you stay safe. Good luck making your decision.

This I say not to help you believe but to explain "the law" of the Fence. What you do with this information will relate to what you believe. Even if you are not a believer, but if you respect Christian morality I will say you are safer than not respecting Christian morality, concerning this Fence "Death".
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Old Yesterday, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
There is a fence in front of you. What do you do?

1 Do you assume that there are no consequences if you jump it because you assume it is not actively guarded by camera, or dog, or shutgun owner, or lady with a phone, or etc.

2. Or you look for a proper gate so you can stay lawful?

That fence is "Death". The proper gate is only one and it is established by the owner of that gate not by you. The gate has rules. First rule is to believe there is an owner. Second you must establish communication with the owner or at least a gate keeper before you can pass through the gate.

If you jump the fence or crush through it, there will be consequences. If you establish contact with the owner of the property or at least the gate keeper and respect their rules you stay safe. Good luck making your decision.

This I say not to help you believe but to explain "the law" of the Fence. What you do with this information will relate to what you believe. Even if you are not a believer, but if you respect Christian morality I will say you are safer than not respecting Christian morality, concerning this Fence "Death".
I'm not trying to be difficult here, but why do you think you want/need to "cross" that fence to begin with? This is an assumption that doesn't have to be made. You're assuming there is something better on the other side and that there is even a gate to begin with.

The fence is death. As someone else pointed out earlier, everyone dies. Its possible this is all there is. Why not live and die right where we are, respecting morality for its inherent worth, and try to live the best life one can, right here and now?
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Old Yesterday, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by AlgoRhythms View Post
I'm not trying to be difficult here, but why do you think you want/need to "cross" that fence to begin with? This is an assumption that doesn't have to be made. You're assuming there is something better on the other side and that there is even a gate to begin with.

The fence is death. As someone else pointed out earlier, everyone dies. Its possible this is all there is. Why not live and die right where we are, respecting morality for its inherent worth, and try to live the best life one can, right here and now?
You are not difficult.

I do not need to assume that we have to cross the fence, this is just a fact that we will cross the fence. We will all die. So we will all cross the fence. The nature of a fence speaks of a before and a beyond, or a before and an after. If you are alive before the fence, I see 100% chances you will be alive after the fence as well. I see no evidence in Nature, or in Logic that death (as in transformation in nothingness) exist. Transformation exists, yes, but something to become nothing (actually nothing) I do not see that. So the same will be with our essence (the one that speaks through your mind and your mouth/fingers), I call it soul, but it has many names and is evidenced in many ways. This essence (soul) will pass through this Fence (death) and transform itself but it will not be lost. The nature of the transformation cannot be assumed, that is true, maybe is Nirvana, maybe is the God of the Bible on the other side. But there is something after the fence which we all pass. That is what Nature and the entire Universe shows us. Also once a thought is out it will never disappear, this is the nature of ideas. So our souls might not be material but even if we look at the world of ideas we can conclude that it will not disappear. It will go on forever.

Death is not a Wall. It is a Fence. Even a wall will be full of the bugs that crush in it. Evidence of those bugs will be gathered on the wall. Nothing is lost, all is transformed. The question you have to put to yourself is this. Is the Soul something that exist? If yes, then it is part of a spiritual world (with rules). If not then how do you explain YOU (as in all that is you). Are YOU and all that is YOU simply the effect of your digestive tube eating bad mushrooms and making your brain think organised ideas and feel complex emotions? If you are, then why your ideas and emotions do not change once you eat something else (this question excludes chocolate )?
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Old Today, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by OldCorps View Post
I would say, "what do you have to lose?" If the Christian is wrong and you're right, no big deal. You both die and cease to exist. But if the Christian is right, do you want to spend eternity in hell?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlgoRhythms View Post
I'm not trying to be difficult here, but why do you think you want/need to "cross" that fence to begin with? This is an assumption that doesn't have to be made. You're assuming there is something better on the other side and that there is even a gate to begin with.

The fence is death. As someone else pointed out earlier, everyone dies. Its possible this is all there is. Why not live and die right where we are, respecting morality for its inherent worth, and try to live the best life one can, right here and now?
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Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
Death is not a Wall. It is a Fence. Even a wall will be full of the bugs that crush in it. Evidence of those bugs will be gathered on the wall. Nothing is lost, all is transformed. The question you have to put to yourself is this. Is the Soul something that exist? If yes, then it is part of a spiritual world (with rules). If not then how do you explain YOU (as in all that is you). Are YOU and all that is YOU simply the effect of your digestive tube eating bad mushrooms and making your brain think organised ideas and feel complex emotions? If you are, then why your ideas and emotions do not change once you eat something else (this question excludes chocolate )?

I believe we all have an immortal soul, but it is possible the person I am talking with neither believes there is a soul (especially an immortal one), nor the truthfulness of the Bible...


Over 100 years ago, Dr. MacDougall weighed people right before and after death, and after accounting for all of the weight present after death, there was an average of 21G that was unaccounted for. When the procedure was performed with dogs, there was no unaccounted for weight.

Dr. MacDougall concluded there is such a thing as a human soul, it weighs an average of about 21G, it departs the body when the person physically dies, and dogs do not have a soul.

Original article (much later) posted online:
MacDougall, D. (1907) Hypothesis concerning soul substance together with experimental evidence of the existence of such substance. Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 1(5), 237-
https://diogenesii.files.wordpress.c...907_-_21pp.pdf

The above became known as the 21 gram theory
https://www.historicmysteries.com/th...m-soul-theory/
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Old Today, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Old fart View Post
I believe we all have an immortal soul, but it is possible the person I am talking with neither believes there is a soul (especially an immortal one), nor the truthfulness of the Bible...


Over 100 years ago, Dr. MacDougall weighed people right before and after death, and after accounting for all of the weight present after death, there was an average of 21G that was unaccounted for. When the procedure was performed with dogs, there was no unaccounted for weight.

Dr. MacDougall concluded there is such a thing as a human soul, it weighs an average of about 21G, it departs the body when the person physically dies, and dogs do not have a soul.

Original article (much later) posted online:
MacDougall, D. (1907) Hypothesis concerning soul substance together with experimental evidence of the existence of such substance. Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 1(5), 237-
https://diogenesii.files.wordpress.c...907_-_21pp.pdf

The above became known as the 21 gram theory
https://www.historicmysteries.com/th...m-soul-theory/
The soul does not have weight. It is not part of the material world. Weight comes from mass. The soul is known to travel way faster than the speed of light when God takes it to see the world around it. Also it travels in time to see events in the past and in the future. Mass cannot travel faster than light and cannot travel in time (you will need a force as large as the energy of the entire Universe to turn back time, because time affects all energy in the Universe and has a forward movement). So the soul does not have mass. Mass equals energy. Energy gets to be spent (as in transformed in smaller particle) and that means you can spend, destroy souls. The soul is indestructible as per the Will of God. indestructible and immortal.
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Old Today, 08:13 AM
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The soul does not have weight. It is not part of the material world. Weight comes from mass. ... Mass equals energy. Energy gets to be spent (as in transformed in smaller particle) and that means you can spend, destroy souls.
Mass ≠ energy. The formula is E = mc^2.

But that is only in our material world.

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The soul is indestructible as per the Will of God. indestructible and immortal.
I trust that even your powers of logic see a contradiction between these last two sentences?
A. You can spend, destroy souls.
B. The soul is indestructible.
Perhaps something was lost in the translation.
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Old Today, 09:15 AM
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Mass ≠ energy. The formula is E = mc^2.

But that is only in our material world.

I trust that even your powers of logic see a contradiction between these last two sentences?
A. You can spend, destroy souls.
B. The soul is indestructible.
Perhaps something was lost in the translation.
Peter you are slow and have a cumbersome mind (not good for make it easier on yourself). Basically you are not at the level.

"E = mc2, equation in German-born physicist Albert Einstein’s theory of special relativity that expresses the fact that mass and energy are the same physical entity and can be changed into each other. In the equation, the increased relativistic mass (m) of a body times the speed of light squared (c2) is equal to the kinetic energy (E) of that body."

https://www.britannica.com/science/E-mc2-equation

So for my intended purpose I am correct to say mass equals energy.

I was explaining how IF the soul is energy it will NOT be indestructible. The fact that IT IS indestructible (as per God's Will that sustain this indestructibility) is also a proof that soul is not made of material energy.

P.S.
What is lost in translation with you is your basic understanding when reading something. That is because you are slow. Always was.
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