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Old 08-05-2017, 08:45 AM
Lunes Lunes is offline
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Hello, i have made a design of a very simple firearm. It's basically a matchlock ignited muzzleloader, but for modern use i would use a (storm)lighter instead.

This is how it looks: http://imgur.com/a/Ept8q

The whole idea of the design is to skip the touch hole, and ignite the gun by the bore instead. In that way it could use cartridges, and you don't have to reload the pan between each shot. Just put a cartridge in, shoot, put it out and put in a new. Fast and simple.

What will the advantage of the gun be?
1. Improve fire speed
2. Less dirt if you use black powder, since the cartridge will protect the main bore of the gun. No small touch hole to clean.
3. Stealth, no one will understand that it's actually a gun that can fire, since it has no mechanism or touch hole at all.
4. Very easy to make, you basically just need a pipe with a bottom at one end, which is strong enough to handle the pressure of your load. You will also need cartridges that fit snugly into that pipe/bore. (Bore-ignition could be used without cartridges to)

What will the disadvantage of the gun be?

This is what came to my mind:
1. The ball have to be under dimensioned (enough for the fuse to pass by)
2. The fuse will delay the shot, with a very fast burning fuse and a short barrel it should not be a big issue.
3. The fire of the fuse may die inside the cartridge/bore, especielly between the little space between bullet and cartridge. How likely is that? How tight does ordinary touch holes use to be?

Give me your thoughts about this project.
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Old 08-05-2017, 08:59 AM
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I have been trying to figure out why this would be necessary.

And your "fast and simple" statement is wholly inaccurate isn't it?
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Old 08-05-2017, 09:05 AM
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So, the fuse is the length of the barrel plus and is "faster"
As opposed to a touch hole or a fuse in the breach?

So how is this an "improvement"?
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Old 08-05-2017, 04:26 PM
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What will your cartridge case be made of? If metal, it will be wedged in the bore at the first shot. No way to get it out. You could make it of flash paper (paper soaked in nitrate), but that will be fragile and very sensitive to moisture.
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Old 08-05-2017, 06:26 PM
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A fuse? Really? How is that going to improve firing speed?
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:18 PM
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If I am understanding the design correctly, and deciphering the OP's description, I do think the design would be effective.

Lunes, correct me if I am wrong, but here is my understanding of the weapon:

1. The 'cartridge' is the same length as the barrel, or slightly longer, and therefore can be gripped and pulled out fairly easily after firing, and an already prepared new one slipped in.

2. The increased rate of firing is in comparison to a matchlock or similar touch hole fired muzzle loaded weapon that uses a priming charge in addition to the propulsion charge, not any type of conventional cartridge weapon with included primer of some sort.

I think that with a couple of design changes in the cartridges, the disadvantages listed might be overcome. But first: touch holes for weapons that used them were usually in the range of 5/64" to 3/32". So they were not all that large.

Okay. To the rest. Black powder only, of course. Never, ever, under any circumstance any smokeless powder.

I would make the cartridges out of fairly heavy brass, for a couple of reasons. One, if there are any imperfections in the bore of the gun, and if using pipe, there will be, light brass is going to expand into those imperfections, and even though the brass will contract some after firing, the cartridge might still tend to stick. Tightly.

Using thick brass will help prevent this, plus, a pair of holes can be drilled in the outer end of the cartridge, so a tool can be used to pull the cartridge if there is a problem with it sticking. The thicker brass will be much less likely to have the holes tear out than thinner brass would.

Now, doing it this way does require either the cartridge to be slightly longer than the barrel, or the barrel must have slots cut into it, and the cartridge inserted with the extraction holes lined up in the slot. I think a longer cartridge is a better choice, though the cartridges will have to be lined up fairly accurately for the flame from the lighter to hit the end of the match, or a better choice in my opinion, small diameter cannon fuse.

Now, one option that might work, by using the thick brass cartridge, is to have the cannon fuse outside the cartridge, and have a groove in the bottom of the barrel, so the cannon fuse lays in it when inserted. That way a fairly snug fitting ball can be used in the cartridge, rather than a looser fitting one.

However, another option that will work almost as well, and is much easier, is to put a groove in the ball, that will fit over the fuse. Great care would need to be taken to not damage the fuse when loading the ball. It would need to be looser than with an external fuse, but still much tighter than one that has to completely clear the ball.a

And yet another option, if the brass is thick enough, is to groove the inside of the cartridge, to hold the fuse.

Another note: Unless the pipe is really smooth, I would definitely get a dowel that can be wrapped with emory cloth and the barrel smoothed as much as possible. Also, if the sticking is prevelent, if the base of the cartridge is left extra thick, and/or, a loose disk of thick metal is inserted in the barrel first, or as part of the cartridge, a small hole can be drilled in the back of the barrel and a hardened push rod kept handy to knock the cartridge out. A long pin punch could be used, actually.

Look for fast burn fireworks fuse. Can be had in a 0.4 second per foot burn rate. That would be about one tenth of a second delay for a 3" cartridge, from the time it lights.


As with all delayed ignition weapons, practice to be able to hold the weapon steady on target during the ignition sequence will need to be done regularly.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask here or PM me.

Just my opinion.
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:35 PM
Flinter Flinter is offline
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Your design has no advantages over a flintlock or caplock pistol.

It does have some serious design flaws though. The fuse is going to take a long time to go off. Accuracy will be awful. Wind will blow the flame in the wrong direction. Gas seepage around that ball will be horrible.

Just off the top of my head.
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Old 08-06-2017, 06:12 AM
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I own what I consider to be the most simple modern firearm available. It's a single shot .22. The bolt action is obviously simple. But so is the trigger. You could replace it with a good rubber band and a nail if you wanted.

I undertsand you're looking at a time when the cartridges have all been fired. But with a good stock of .22 ammo that could take a couple of lifetimes.

My mother and her siblings lived a very poor existence after my grandfather left the family (nut case jerk that he was). They were hard up for food and they lived in a time when accepting any form of charity (including foodstamps) was considered a horrible thing to do. Decent people just didn't do that or so they thought.

At any rate the only male in the family was tasked with providing food quite often. He had a rifle. He was given TWO bullets and told to bring home dinner. He did just that many times.

Even at today's inflated prices .22 ammo is still cheap relatively speaking. A case of ammo (5000 rounds) can last a very, very long time if you are frugal with your shooting. I keep more than double that amount on reserve for just in case purposes.

Needless to say you must be proficient with a rifle to make 2 rounds provide dinner but I know it can be done because my uncle did it. That same uncle preached to me to never give up my firearms no matter what. He must have told me that 10,000 times. He really didn't need to tell me at all. I know the stakes but not like he did. He lived through the worst of the worst and thrived under those conditions. By the time he was 25 he owned a string of service stations in the Los Angeles area. But by the time he was thirty he had cashed out and spent all his money on cocaine but that's another story. He moved to the wilderness of nothern California to escape his habit and his patterns. It worked for him. He lived off the grid for many years there. No running water (excpet for the river next to his house), no electricity, no phone etc.. We did have a modicum of electricity where I grew up but it was so expensive we used little of it. So I know something of living off the grid too. We got our food from the land we lived on and we ate like kings.

Hunting played a part in providing food for our table also. So I learned that firearms can provide even on the limited side of things where a single box of .22 ammo was a luxury. If we got 10 rounds to shoot we thought we were in heaven. We learned to make every shot count too. Eventually we moved up in the world but I never forgot my roots.

A simple firearm with limited ammo can provide bountiful benefits. I just think that trying to reinvent the wheel is going to be tough at this point. Just building the weapon described by the OP could mean a lot of ammo if the money was spent there instead. The time may come when we need to go back to black powder rifles but not in my lifetime. I'm already prepared for a life long period.
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Old 08-06-2017, 06:43 AM
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Build one of those. Put it on the shelf.

Go buy a single shot shotgun. Buy shotgun shells.
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:10 AM
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I'm here to learn, so excuse my questions.

If survival is the game plan, and living off the land as opposed to street massacres is your territory, wouldn't becoming proficient in bow hunting serve the survivalist better in the long term?

I didn't intend to hijack your thread. Thanks
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12413 View Post
Wouldn't becoming proficient in bow hunting serve the survivalist better in the long term?
That's the prob. Long term. It takes a long time to become as good with a bow as a pure beginner can be with the simplest of firearms. While good arrows may become rarer than hen's teeth, the parts of a simple firearm never will. Right now in your own home, you have the makings of a couple of dozen useable firearms. Not so for a bow and arrow.

Welcome to the forum, sir!
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:23 AM
MadDawg MadDawg is offline
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Honestly, I don't see the point of this exercise nor do I see how it would be any better than a reliable, modernized pistol with a stash of ammo. Nor do I see how this would be even marginally better than say a homemade bow and arrow.

For one thing: It's dependent upon you having some sort of tube, plenty of fuse material, lead or suitable material for use as the projectile, a stock of gunpowder, or the materials and skills to make those components, working lighters ( just how long will a lighter last; and do you want to put all of your eggs in this basket for a marginal design)

How much money would you waste building up the necessary stash to make this thing even feasible ? What kind of performance do you think you will get out of it- what three or four hundred feet per second ?

A better option: Buy a cheap but reliable .22LR pistol, preferably new. Get a total of 2 to 4 mags for it. Buy 2000 rounds of .22LR ammo. Store it properly. At that point, you have something far more reliable, far better, far more accurate and probably a darn sight deadlier than the perceived contraption. You could substitute a 9mm for the .22LR and get a similar setup for about two to three times the cost, and it probably would be still only a fraction of what your "design" is capable of, especially considering costs & performance.

Back to your plan: fuse ? Where you going to get it and how much is it going to cost? How do you store it? Projectiles: Let's say you have a stash of lead; Do you have the stuff to melt the lead, pour it into molds, and make projectiles that will work well enough. Tubes: How many times can you fire from the tube before you destroy it. How about - how do you seal the end ? Costs ? Lighters ? How often have you grabbed a lighter to find that it's ran out ? How many are you going to stash away? Gunpowder: Making it or buying it ? How to store it so it does not go bad? Materials to make it ? What if it gets wet ? Once you figure out the costs involved, and the time and effort required, along with the other materials required for your project- go price out a decent .22 pistol, with a few thousand rounds, and I'd bet that it's far cheaper to not re-invent the wheel. Especially on a smaller scale..
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Old 08-06-2017, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunes View Post
Hello, i have made a design of a very simple firearm. It's basically a matchlock ignited muzzleloader.
No touch hole., no fuse, no shoot. The fuse limits you in more than a few ways. The length is another. Long barrel means longer fuse and longer to wait to fire.

Cartridges....make common revolver paper cartridges and then use a touchhole. Make the cartridges out of cig papers on a mandrel that's lesser diam than the barrel, hot glue a ball directly to the top. In use you push the paper cartridge with the powder load down the barrel, ball attached, and then ram it hard. The ramming will split the paper and pack the powder. Wire pick the touch hole and then point it and use a lighter to light it. No fuse. It loads faster than yours, shoots faster, and is more reliable since no fuse. Wire pick the touch hole and you'll get more than enough powder leakage to work as a flash pan. You can use a simple "hold a lighter to it" system or a simple match lock system for accuracy.
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Old 08-06-2017, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunes View Post
Hello, i have made a design of a very simple firearm. It's basically a matchlock ignited muzzleloader, but for modern use i would use a (storm)lighter instead.

This is how it looks: http://imgur.com/a/Ept8q

The whole idea of the design is to skip the touch hole, and ignite the gun by the bore instead. In that way it could use cartridges, and you don't have to reload the pan between each shot. Just put a cartridge in, shoot, put it out and put in a new. Fast and simple.

What will the advantage of the gun be?
1. Improve fire speed
2. Less dirt if you use black powder, since the cartridge will protect the main bore of the gun. No small touch hole to clean.
3. Stealth, no one will understand that it's actually a gun that can fire, since it has no mechanism or touch hole at all.
4. Very easy to make, you basically just need a pipe with a bottom at one end, which is strong enough to handle the pressure of your load. You will also need cartridges that fit snugly into that pipe/bore. (Bore-ignition could be used without cartridges to)

What will the disadvantage of the gun be?

This is what came to my mind:
1. The ball have to be under dimensioned (enough for the fuse to pass by)
2. The fuse will delay the shot, with a very fast burning fuse and a short barrel it should not be a big issue.
3. The fire of the fuse may die inside the cartridge/bore, especielly between the little space between bullet and cartridge. How likely is that? How tight does ordinary touch holes use to be?

Give me your thoughts about this project.
If you are still living in the iron age, this is a great idea.
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Old 08-06-2017, 12:23 PM
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Pound for pound, a bow and arrow is more effective and accurate. Why bother.
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Old 08-06-2017, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
A better option: Buy a cheap but reliable .22LR pistol, preferably new. Get a total of 2 to 4 mags for it. Buy 2000 rounds of .22LR ammo.
That was essentially what I said also except I think a rifle would be a better choice. A single shot rifle at that. They are incredibly simple and durable and they could be repaired easily with basic skills if you did have a problem. I have a .22 like that which is already into it's third generation of humans and about to enter the 4th. And it will probably make it to the 10th generation. It's too simple to quit working, And 10k rounds of ammo will last a very long time with a single shot rifle.
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Old 08-06-2017, 05:48 PM
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Single shot shotgun. H&R Style, or option to the Handi Rifle, in various calibers. Also like Single action 22lr revolvers vs Semi Autos. I have owned several semi's, and most are mag particular/ammo, Single Action has a bit of slack, slow to reload.
Currently I carry a Glock 19, and a S&W 442 as a backup. Both are flawless. I also own a Survival shotgun, with Plastic stock, H&R 12 ga. The Stock opens up enough to store an Altoids Survival Kit. (check YouTube for many kinds), a mini Multitool, pocket knife, 1/2 of a bandana.(for wash/ cooling, or misc use).
My 22lr is an 1875 Chiappa Revolver. Not fancy, but shoots okay.
Good luck.
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Old 08-08-2017, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anishinabi View Post
Pound for pound, a bow and arrow is more effective and accurate. Why bother.
Again, not so. The reasons that we moved off the bows and to the early firearms still hold true today. If bows were better, we would still be using bows today.
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Old 08-08-2017, 10:10 AM
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I have done an update on this project, which will make it possible to ignite the gun through the rear instead of the muzzle.

This is how the prototype of the gun and cartridge looks like: http://imgur.com/download/VfvBhDS

Barrel and stock http://imgur.com/download/r7MgITt

It has to be a hole in the stock/grip that fairly fits the lighter, when the lighter have been put in place the space has to be filled, so that the hot gasses don't reach your hand when firing the gun - but escape through the "touch hole" /big hole at the top. I made that hole very big in my design, so that the gasses easily can escape and don't build up any pressure.

Update advantage:
1. Fires instantly
2. Fires more durable (no hassle with the fuse inside the barrel)
3. The ball don't have to be undersized

Update disadvantage
The only disadvantage i can think of is about the gasses from the touch hole, which will travel back at you since the touch hole is at the rear of the cartridge. That's why i though this design would be bad in the first place, but it should not be that hard to lead the gasses away as i show in my example/sketch. So the disadvantage should easily be overcomed.

The goal behind this project is to find a way to shoot a primitive gun/muzzleloader with fast reloading. The main issue with fast reloading ordinary muzzleloaders is that a spark could be left in the bore, which could make the powder charge go off while you're loading the gun. With cartridges that won't be an issue, and the reloading process can be made even faster to, with the use of cartridges.

Tell me if the design/sketches is unclear, and feel free to give me your thoughts about this update.
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:02 PM
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Learn to reload. It is much safer an it works....
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