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Old 08-29-2019, 04:59 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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Default Thank God for CO2



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In 1910, the closest year to 300 ppm of CO2, global CO2 levels were 300.1 ppm. That year emissions were 3.03 giga-tons of global CO2. The average temperature for the lower 48 states was 52.42°F. (I only trust lower 48 temp numbers.)

In 2018 CO2 was at 408.1 ppm and global CO2 emissions were 37.1 giga-tons of CO2. The lower 48 average temperature was 53.56°F.

This means since 1910 we have increase CO2 emissions by 1,124% but only increased CO2 atmospheric ppm by 36% while our temperature has only increased 2.2%. Global population has increased 334.3% yet the world is better fed.

How can this be?

Thank the plants in you yards, gardens and farms. Thank God also.

More CO2 means more food. Even if CO2 does, in a minor way data says the effect is not major, it will only mean larger areas with growing seasons. In some areas the agricultural seasons will double. There will be a season between too cold and too hot and a season between too hot and too cold.

Carbon dioxide is one of the best God given tools man has. Which probably explains why many do not believe in either.
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Old 08-29-2019, 05:03 PM
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I just let out some methane.
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Old 08-29-2019, 05:08 PM
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Not so fast. More CO2 isn't always good. If you spend a lot of time outdoors you may have noticed that there has been an great increase in poison ivy (Toxicodendron radicans) over the past couple of decades.

The reason for this is poison ivy LOVES CO2. It really encourages its growth.

The increase of CO2 has greatly increased the amount of poison ivy I'm encountering in the Northeast.

And I'm NOT happy about it.
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Old 08-29-2019, 05:31 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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Originally Posted by AlgoRhythms View Post
Not so fast. More CO2 isn't always good. If you spend a lot of time outdoors you may have noticed that there has been an great increase in poison ivy (Toxicodendron radicans) over the past couple of decades.
You are correct a 300 ppm increase of CO2 over ambient CO2 results in a 75% increase in dry body mass. The good pare it also results in a 116% increase in the CO2 atmospheric exchange rate.

Plant something else.
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Old 08-29-2019, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post

....Plant something else.

That's funny! But also not funny since nobody willingly plants poison ivy.
My point still stands: its not a complete win. More CO2 increases and stimulates plant growth. Those plants that better utilize CO2 will, over time, dominate and destroy those that use/need less. Many of those lost will be beneficial and many of those that thrive won't be.
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Old 08-29-2019, 05:38 PM
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Mother Earth seems to prefer her CO2 at 2,000 PPM and temps at 77. F ... she grew big ass dinosaurs back then.


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Old 08-29-2019, 06:53 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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Originally Posted by AlgoRhythms View Post
Not so fast. More CO2 isn't always good. If you spend a lot of time outdoors you may have noticed that there has been an great increase in poison ivy (Toxicodendron radicans) over the past couple of decades.

The reason for this is poison ivy LOVES CO2. It really encourages its growth.

The increase of CO2 has greatly increased the amount of poison ivy I'm encountering in the Northeast.

And I'm NOT happy about it.
My spreadsheet does not paste well here so her ia a few:

White Oak 146.7% increased growth 142% CO2 exchange rate increase.

Green Beans 104% increased growth 55.8% CO2 exchange rate increase.

Sweet Cherries 59.8% increased growth 173.3% CO2 exchange rate increase.

Wheat 39.4% increased growth 68.2% CO2 exchange rate increase.

The point is we must manage unwanted weeds now and we will need to manage them with increased CO2. The good side of the unwanted plants is they sill have in increased CO2 exchange rate.
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
My spreadsheet does not paste well here so her ia a few:

White Oak 146.7% increased growth 142% CO2 exchange rate increase.

Green Beans 104% increased growth 55.8% CO2 exchange rate increase.

Sweet Cherries 59.8% increased growth 173.3% CO2 exchange rate increase.

Wheat 39.4% increased growth 68.2% CO2 exchange rate increase.

The point is we must manage unwanted weeds now and we will need to manage them with increased CO2. The good side of the unwanted plants is they sill have in increased CO2 exchange rate.

You're presenting a too simplified explanation of the benefits of additional CO2.


In a lab, increased CO2 levels produce more photosynthesis. But in nature its more complicated. In the case of plants, nitrogen is far more important than CO2 for increasing its size.


There is evidence that increased CO2 levels decrease the nutritional quality of many food plants.


The point I'm making is this: increased CO2 levels aren't necessarily a slam dunk benefit, as the problems and benefits associated are complex.
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:29 PM
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I check CO2 ppm all the time (not because of climate change)

I get readings anywhere from 325 to 450 ppm (in the 30 yrs I've been checking). It's all about atmospheric conditions.

You can get a 450 reading then drive a 1/4 mile away and it will be different


Just so you guys know, it's a part of indoor air quality, as the CO2 increases so does the chances of mold when mixed with humidity. It also actually pushes the oxygen out. Oxygen is 19-21% of the air you breath.

You need fresh air, in your business and in your home. If you feel lousy, tired and sleepy, it could be from a lack of fresh air
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ManyFeathers View Post
I check CO2 ppm all the time (not because of climate change)

I get readings anywhere from 325 to 450 ppm (in the 30 yrs I've been checking). It's all about atmospheric conditions.

You can get a 450 reading then drive a 1/4 mile away and it will be different

Just so you guys know, it's a part of indoor air quality, as the CO2 increases so does the chances of mold when mixed with humidity. It also actually pushes the oxygen out. Oxygen is 19-21% of the air you breath.

You need fresh air, in your business and in your home. If you feel lousy, tired and sleepy, it could be from a lack of fresh air
You are correct. CO2 is highly variable which is why I use the numbers the cult uses. Indoor CO2 levels than be much higher then outdoor levels only separated by a wall and a few feet.

What type monitor do you use. The only handhelds I have come across say to calibrate outdoors at 400 ppm then only use them for relative change.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:46 PM
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God gave us CO2...

So there can be photosynthesis.....

So there can be grain........

So there can be...........BEER!


Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
.................................................. ........Benjamin Franklin
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by The Old Coach View Post
God gave us CO2...

So there can be photosynthesis.....

So there can be grain........

So there can be...........BEER!


Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
.................................................. ........Benjamin Franklin



Accepting the first premise, your logic is inescapable!
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:18 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlgoRhythms View Post
You're presenting a too simplified explanation of the benefits of additional CO2.

In a lab, increased CO2 levels produce more photosynthesis. But in nature its more complicated. In the case of plants, nitrogen is far more important than CO2 for increasing its size.

There is evidence that increased CO2 levels decrease the nutritional quality of many food plants.

The point I'm making is this: increased CO2 levels aren't necessarily a slam dunk benefit, as the problems and benefits associated are complex.

I worked by way through college working for a fertilizer company. We got the sodium nitrate, triple superphosphate (phosphoric acid on phosphate rock), potash and filler by rail for granular fertilizer. Those farmers wanting more nitrogen would use liquid nitrogen (liquid urea) or anhydrous ammonium nitrate. They came in on tank cars. I unloaded all from the rail cars and tanks. I mixed the granular fertilizer to the farmers’ request. I know a little about plants and what they need.

Often by request we would add minor nutrients.

The numbers you see on bags of fertilizer is the percent of each of the major nutrients. A bag of 10-10-10 is 10% of each sodium nitrate, triple superphosphate (phosphoric acid on phosphate rock), potash plus often some minor nutrients the rest is filler.

PLANTS DO NOT USE NITROGEN FROM THE AIR!


The growth rates I quoted are lab studies with controlled ambient air growth with and added CO2 with the only variable being the increased CO2.

I am using data from 9 different scientific studies by 6 different teams.

The point is farmers and gardeners attempt to supply the correct fertilizer. Increases in CO2 are a benefit. Yes plants still need water. Yes there are ideal temperatures for growth.

People do not fail to fertilize just because the season might be too hot this year or too dry. Many crops are spring crops other are fall or winter crops.

It is a slam-dunk fact that from 300ppm to 700ppm given the same other variables dry biomass is increased with CO2 increases. The increases are not the same for all plants. It is also a slam-dunk fact that plants increase their CO2 exchange rate with increases of CO2.

Back in the day when Clemson University has extension service agents in every county studies were made in and around corn fields. Even back then lower CO2 levels were measured in the center lower than the average levels around the perimeter of the same field.
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:31 PM
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We should thank God that the Sun returned to near normal output in the 1840s, and our climate warmed up over the next 40 yrs.

This increased ag productivity, and crop yields. This allowed excess farm woorkers to seek out manufacturing jobs, and ultimately produced more CO2, which improved crop yields even further.

It took many, many different factors to allow our current level of productivity, but none of it would be possible during little ice age conditions.

Our sun is currently in another grand solar minimum cycle. If it continues low solar output, we may return to LIA conditions.

Our current ag methods would fail completely under another LIA and most persons would die.
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
You are correct. CO2 is highly variable which is why I use the numbers the cult uses. Indoor CO2 levels than be much higher then outdoor levels only separated by a wall and a few feet.

What type monitor do you use. The only handhelds I have come across say to calibrate outdoors at 400 ppm then only use them for relative change.
I use a gas lab plus handheld

But you bring up a very good point about calibration and how it can vary between monitors and equipment used today vs. yesteryear

I doubt any of them back then and most now days are even NIST certified or even traceable


Edit to add:

If I want lower CO2 readings, I'll go out into the country

If I want higher readings, I can go downtown where there's lots of concrete, asphalt, people and cars, I'll get higher readings

So iffin I was wanting evidence either to promote or deny global warming, the above 2 sentences is where I'd start!
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:32 PM
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I use a gas lab plus handheld

But you bring up a very good point about calibration and how it can vary between monitors and equipment used today vs. yesteryear

I doubt any of them back then and most now days are even NIST certified or even traceable

Edit to add:

If I want lower CO2 readings, I'll go out into the country

If I want higher readings, I can go downtown where there's lots of concrete, asphalt, people and cars, I'll get higher readings

So iffin I was wanting evidence either to promote or deny global warming, the above 2 sentences is where I'd start!
Thanks which model do you recommend?

I mostly just try to hang the cult with their own numbers mostly NOAA. I know some allege they are messed with but their numbers still work against them.
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Old 08-30-2019, 06:59 AM
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Thanks which model do you recommend?
I can't say as I like one more than any other. The Gas Lab Plus does what I need it to do. I have been looking at the Amprobe handheld, I can't tell you the model but it's the only one they make.

I use it for indoor air quality, I'm in the HVAC business and high CO2 readings helps me sell and gain accounts

The answer to high CO2 and mold issues is more outside air and/or dehumidification. When I tell a decision maker that it makes his employees more productive.....he's on board most of the time.

I also have one that's a data logger, it checks for CO2, CO, oxygen, temp and humidity........it always reads high, I think there may be something wrong with it but it's always good to use for the other things it detects, I can't tell you the name as I think its rebranded

I can tell you that it always reads high, if a greenie weenie used it, he would push the global warming thing with it....

As you said in another post, I look for the high readings and the relative change
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Old 08-30-2019, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ManyFeathers View Post
I can't say as I like one more than any other. The Gas Lab Plus does what I need it to do. I have been looking at the Amprobe handheld, I can't tell you the model but it's the only one they make.

I use it for indoor air quality, I'm in the HVAC business and high CO2 readings helps me sell and gain accounts

The answer to high CO2 and mold issues is more outside air and/or dehumidification. When I tell a decision maker that it makes his employees more productive.....he's on board most of the time.

I also have one that's a data logger, it checks for CO2, CO, oxygen, temp and humidity........it always reads high, I think there may be something wrong with it but it's always good to use for the other things it detects, I can't tell you the name as I think its rebranded

I can tell you that it always reads high, if a greenie weenie used it, he would push the global warming thing with it....

As you said in another post, I look for the high readings and the relative change
Thanks your job is to show system capability differences. I understand it is the right tool for the job. I do like their line and the products do seem to hold calibration better than reviews I have read on other products.

Thanks again.
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Old 08-30-2019, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
Yes plants still need water.
You mean like, from the toilet?


Quote:

Joe: For the last time, I'm pretty sure what's killing the crops is this Brawndo stuff.
Secretary of State: But Brawndo's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes.
Attorney General: "So wait a minute. What you're saying is that you want us to put water on the crops.
Joe: Yes.
Attorney General: Water. Like out the toilet?
Joe: Well, I mean, it doesn't have to be out of the toilet, but, yeah, that's the idea.
Secretary of State: But Brawndo's got what plants crave.
Attorney General: It's got electrolytes.
Joe: Okay, look. The plants aren't growing, so I'm pretty sure that the Brawndo's not working. Now, I'm no botanist, but I do know that if you put water on plants, they grow.
Secretary of Energy: Well, I've never seen no plants grow out of no toilet.




Note: PT, thank you for the informative posts above! I hope you don't mind my silly joke from the movie idiocracy.
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Old 08-30-2019, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManyFeathers View Post
I'm in the HVAC business and high CO2 readings helps me sell and gain accounts
High indoor CO2 is a real issue. It is not unusual to have very high CO2 readings in modern, super efficient, super insulated, tightly constructed office buildings and schools. As you might expect, there are times where CO2 levels spike in airport buildings too.

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