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Old 06-30-2020, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Major Mjolnir View Post
Almost exactly the scenario depicted by Rock6 at post 21.

https://www.survivalistboards.com/sh...8&postcount=21

My group is pretty well covered at anything else pertinent to this discussion (arms, ammo, standard mags) so if I can give two or three of the younger guys a slight edge, in vehicles, for less than a couple of months of bourbon, beer and pizzas - why wouldn't I do so?
Indeed. The question remains is it a slight edge, or a slight handicap? That's the debate.

I overlooked your post, responding to personal insults, and wanted to give you a detailed response.

I come down on the side that it's a handicap b/c they are mechanically inherently less reliable, they weigh more, and they cost more; all of that means sacrifices are to be made elsewhere. Those are handicaps.

* Reliability is critical. A mag joining multiple geometric angles, joining circles with columns creating a lot of seams, using multiple springs, etc. with more moving parts is mechanically less reliable than a standard mag that uses 1 spring to lift 1 follower.
* Weight - the more needless weight one carries, the less critical weight. The added pound of a drum mag, is either unnecessary weight, or sacrifices the equivalent of medical gear, more water, more ammo, body armor, etc. All things considered, I'd rather have less weight or the equivalent in other gear.
* Cost - nobody here has unlimited means. $100 wasted on gear is $100 less ammo, less training, etc. Simple economics too elementary to need explanation. One can take a good training course for the additional differential of just a few D60s versus equivalent standard mags. My gym membership is $15 per month. The price differential of 1 mag is about 7 months of gym membership. Plainly, 7 months at the gym is more valuable.
* Pointless. Mags changes are part of the job, they are simple, and pauses in shooting are mandatory to preserve the gun. So D60s are a pointless item IMO. While 1 D60 won't do harm, sustained long term firing and heating up barrels prematurely ruins them, and degrades reliability.

Conversely, things like pizza, bourbon, beer, etc., a night out on the town or at the strip club, etc. or even better useful gear and training, gym memberships, are morale boosters and/or aids in performance, and actually critically important. If you're cutting funds for morale items to provide pointless and, IMHO handicap, items then that furthers the handicap.
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
Indeed. The question remains is it a slight edge, or a slight handicap? That's the debate.

I overlooked your post, responding to personal insults, and wanted to give you a detailed response.

I come down on the side that it's a handicap b/c they are mechanically inherently less reliable, they weigh more, and they cost more; all of that means sacrifices are to be made elsewhere. Those are handicaps.

* Reliability is critical. A mag joining multiple geometric angles, joining circles with columns creating a lot of seams, using multiple springs, etc. with more moving parts is mechanically less reliable than a standard mag that uses 1 spring to lift 1 follower.
* Weight - the more needless weight one carries, the less critical weight. The added pound of a drum mag, is either unnecessary weight, or sacrifices the equivalent of medical gear, more water, more ammo, body armor, etc. All things considered, I'd rather have less weight or the equivalent in other gear.
* Cost - nobody here has unlimited means. $100 wasted on gear is $100 less ammo, less training, etc. Simple economics too elementary to need explanation. One can take a good training course for the additional differential of just a few D60s versus equivalent standard mags. My gym membership is $15 per month. The price differential of 1 mag is about 7 months of gym membership. Plainly, 7 months at the gym is more valuable.
* Pointless. Mags changes are part of the job, they are simple, and pauses in shooting are mandatory to preserve the gun. So D60s are a pointless item IMO. While 1 D60 won't do harm, sustained long term firing and heating up barrels prematurely ruins them, and degrades reliability.

Conversely, things like pizza, bourbon, beer, etc., a night out on the town or at the strip club, etc. or even better useful gear and training, gym memberships, are morale boosters and/or aids in performance, and actually critically important. If you're cutting funds for morale items to provide pointless and, IMHO handicap, items then that furthers the handicap.
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
...I come down on the side that it's a handicap b/c they are mechanically inherently less reliable, they weigh more, and they cost more; all of that means sacrifices are to be made elsewhere. Those are handicaps.
There is no doubt that added complexity breeds 'failure points' but this same argument is used with virtually every sea-change in the mechanical devices we use - M1 to SOPMOD M4s and varients, steel sidearm to 'plastic' sidearm, carburetor to fuel injection, etc., etc., etc. Most have faced, sometimes well deserved, criticisms but in many cases modern materials science and advanced engineering have delivered reliable, not 'perfect', products. No device is perfect.
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
* Reliability is critical. ...
Indeed it is. Maybe we should go back to the Garand and and the 8 shot clip? On a less facetious note your point of no widespread adoption of the device has some validity but the fact remains that neither you nor I have any direct experience with the drums while people on the forum who have seen them in the field depict reasonable scenarios for limited use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
* Weight
- not a factor for bicycle, horse, 4-wheeler, Jeep, F350, or Freightliner deployment. I don't envision my 70+ year old legs or anyone else's for that matter patrolling with these things.
Which of course obviates
Quote:
* Pointless. ... While 1 D60 won't do harm, ...
because no one's going to be firing multiple D60s anyway.

Cost - I'm not rich but I do OK. I can afford 2-3 hundred dollars for a few of these that will almost certainly increase in price (as someone else posted earlier) when /if the Dems take a veto proof hold of the Senate or (s)COTUS attacks the 2nd.

Finally, we'll just have to disagree. An opinion is like a sphincter ani externus, everybody has one. This has been an interesting discussion but for my part, I have nothing else to add - have a good day.
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Old 07-02-2020, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
No "rebuttle" to your personal attacks is necessary, and you "demolished" nothing except your own reputation and character. I'm not going to stoop to your and Steve's level of childishness with branch or MOS shaming. And frankly, it's pathetic for some people to take good natured gear discussions where we might actually learn from each other, and dive into assorted personal attacks. I'm honestly embarrassed for the both of you and your behavior.

I've presented facts, for which you and he can't rebut. When big military units or law enforcement adopt these in massive numbers, post about it and I'll be persuaded. But some French Fries and 1 picture of 2 America SS guys using LITERALLY 2 drums is hardly supportive of widespread drum use.
Do NOT put that **** on me!

Neither I nor anyone else did ANY "MOS shaming"

I merely pointed out that helicopter mechanics aren't cooks
Fighter pilots don't fix tanks
Tankers aren't armorers
And JAG officers aren't trigger pullers and door kickers.

If you're "ashamed" of that that's YOUR hangup, not mine.

And quite frankly it's ****ing stupid.
-but your just hiding behind that to avoid responding to everything ELSE I said.

My dumbass walked away from an ROTC scholarship to enlist and go out for Recon.
One of the biggest mistakes of my life. Wish I'd been smart enough to do JAG instead.

As to your "basic comblock weapons familiarization and fanfire"
I know more about comblock rifles than your instructors did.

Quote:
I've presented facts, for which you and he can't rebut. When big military units or law enforcement adopt these in massive numbers, post about it and I'll be persuaded
Again:
RPK Drums. (You know... The ones I've been talking about this entire time.) ...So I guess you're persuaded.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/displ...darticles=2819
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Old 07-02-2020, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
Do NOT put that **** on me!

Neither I nor anyone else did ANY "MOS shaming"

I merely pointed out that helicopter mechanics aren't cooks
Fighter pilots don't fix tanks
Tankers aren't armorers
And JAG officers aren't trigger pullers and door kickers.

If you're "ashamed" of that that's YOUR hangup, not mine.

And quite frankly it's ****ing stupid.
-but your just hiding behind that to avoid responding to everything ELSE I said.

My dumbass walked away from an ROTC scholarship to enlist and go out for Recon.
One of the biggest mistakes of my life. Wish I'd been smart enough to do JAG instead.

As to your "basic comblock weapons familiarization and fanfire"
I know more about comblock rifles than your instructors did.


Again:
RPK Drums. (You know... The ones I've been talking about this entire time.) ...So I guess you're persuaded.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/displ...darticles=2819
None of your exuding bitterness, which you often take out on other members, has a lick of anything to do with drum mags. This is a gear discussion, not a 'glory days' of - "there I was in combat, not using the gear we're discussing, but let me tell you all about how the gear performs in combat...".

I'd almost be willing to wager you never carried a drum mag or shot one in combat. So all your combat experience has zero, zilch, nothing, nada (and that's not a light chicken gravy) to do with this thread and drum mags. It would be like touting the benefits of using a katana in combat because you were a ground pounder in Afghanistan. One has nothing to do with the other.

The basis for that linked article is firing fully auto at 600 RPM. You'd be lucky to get 150 RPM in semi-auto before fatigue sets in. Realistically you're looking at 120 RPM. About 2 shots per second. A mag change takes say 2 seconds. You're losing a whopping 4 shots off your sustained rate of fire with every mag change. So knocking 120 RPM to ~100 RPM. Your trigger finger would need the break anyway...

Further, the article itself knocks drum mags for reliability, implying Chinese drums are not reliable and prefering the Soviet for better reliability. Your article also mentions high price, lack of availability, increased bulk and weight, complexity, and interfering with prone firing. If you need a 2 page article to describe a magazine and details, the thing is too complex...

Got any other gems that aid my arguments??

So you've taught us nothing about semi-autos and drums. Oh well. Or rather, that they are of no real world benefit for someone firing a semi-auto. All drawback.

Oh, and my "response" will be in PM. Not OT discussion on a thread.
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Old 07-02-2020, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
None of your exuding bitterness, which you often take out on other members, has a lick of anything to do with drum mags.
So, you've learned from my PM where almost every response was finished with "what does this have to do with the fact RPK Drums are widely issued by several militaries"

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
This is a gear discussion, not a 'glory days' of - "there I was in combat, not using the gear we're discussing, but let me tell you all about how the gear performs in combat...".
My my, how the tune doth change once we set aside the "combat JAG"


what does this have to do with the fact RPK Drums are widely issued by several militaries"


Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
I'd almost be willing to wager you never carried a drum mag or shot one in combat. So all your combat experience has zero, zilch, nothing, nada (and that's not a light chicken gravy) to do with this thread and drum mags. It would be like touting the benefits of using a katana in combat because you were a ground pounder in Afghanistan. One has nothing to do with the other.
Too bad it's "almost"
Iraq not Afghanistan BTW.


what does this have to do with the fact RPK Drums are widely issued by several militaries"


Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
The basis for that linked article is firing fully auto at 600 RPM. You'd be lucky to get 150 RPM in semi-auto before fatigue sets in. Realistically you're looking at 120 RPM. About 2 shots per second. A mag change takes say 2 seconds. You're losing a whopping 4 shots off your sustained rate of fire with every mag change. So knocking 120 RPM to ~100 RPM. Your trigger finger would need the break anyway...
You don't shoot much do you?
I'd think that all the time with a pin would of made your trigger finger stronger.
(Yes, NOW I'm busting on you, but after as insulting as you were by PM, I figure some playful ribbing is fine.)

In short:
More evidence you haven't shot for a living.

what does this have to do with the fact RPK Drums are widely issued by several militaries"


Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
Further, the article itself knocks drum mags for reliability, implying Chinese drums are not reliable and prefering the Soviet for better reliability. Your article also mentions high price, lack of availability, increased bulk and weight, complexity, and interfering with prone firing. If you need a 2 page article to describe a magazine and details, the thing is too complex...

Got any other gems that aid my arguments??
"Oh no, one drum mag is gonna break my budget"

Nissan is a less reliable car than Toyota. It must be crap!

You've never fired a RPK from prone with a bipod have you?

what does this have to do with the fact RPK Drums are widely issued by several militaries"

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
So you've taught us nothing about semi-autos and drums. Oh well. Or rather, that they are of no real world benefit for someone firing a semi-auto. All drawback.

Oh, and my "response" will be in PM. Not OT discussion on a thread.
Some people cannot be taught....


what does this have to do with the fact RPK Drums are widely issued by several militaries"


[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
I've presented facts, for which you and he can't rebut. When big military units or law enforcement adopt these in massive numbers, post about it and I'll be persuaded
RPK drums.

Glad your persuaded.
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Old 07-02-2020, 04:45 PM
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Just an FYI if youre looking for them. Combat Armory has the D60's for $101.99 with the code "TAKE15".

http://www.combatarmory.com/magpul-p...drum-magazine/
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Old 07-02-2020, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
Just an FYI if youre looking for them. Combat Armory has the D60's for $101.99 with the code "TAKE15".

http://www.combatarmory.com/magpul-p...drum-magazine/
Pretty good price and they do have them in stock.

Armsunlimited.com has them for $99.99 and if you buy something else to get the total over $100 shipping is free with no tax. Though they are out of stock and you need to get on the notification list and be ready to jump. They have come back in stock twice in the last month but sold out in less than 3 hours each time.
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Old 07-02-2020, 06:30 PM
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Went to go order a couple just cause.
(I have no idea how I will pay my power bill because I bought a couple drums.... Oh, wait. I don't know because I'm offgrid and don't have a power bill!)

An d saw these:

http://www.combatarmory.com/ak-47-22-lr-conversion-kit/

Anyone tried one of these?

Eta: shipping was free.
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Old 07-02-2020, 07:47 PM
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Haven't read all the posts but if it was not mentioned yet, the 40 round pmags are a steal of a deal. 2/3 the capacity of the D60 at 1/5 the cost or less. Before all this craziness they were going for $15-$20 each. They have a similar profile to standard 30 rounders just a bit longer and in my experience function as flawlessly. I even got a couple of Colt branded 40 round aluminum (?)
mags from sportsman's guide for something like $10 each. I have several 40 round mags of each variety. I haven't shot with the Colt ones as much as the pmags but so far no issues with the two I have tried.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
Went to go order a couple just cause.
(I have no idea how I will pay my power bill because I bought a couple drums.... Oh, wait. I don't know because I'm offgrid and don't have a power bill!)

An d saw these:

http://www.combatarmory.com/ak-47-22...version-kit/or

Anyone tried one of these?

Eta: shipping was free.
Your link needs to drop the "/or" at the end to work.

The kits are well thought of over on AKFiles.com
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Old 07-03-2020, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by SHTF MAN View Post
Haven't read all the posts but if it was not mentioned yet, the 40 round pmags are a steal of a deal. 2/3 the capacity of the D60 at 1/5 the cost or less. Before all this craziness they were going for $15-$20 each. They have a similar profile to standard 30 rounders just a bit longer and in my experience function as flawlessly. I even got a couple of Colt branded 40 round aluminum (?)
mags from sportsman's guide for something like $10 each. I have several 40 round mags of each variety. I haven't shot with the Colt ones as much as the pmags but so far no issues with the two I have tried.
40's are a valid option and as you say much cheaper. The only issue is they hang down pretty far and can interfere with going prone or get hung up exiting a vehicle.
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Old 07-03-2020, 08:41 AM
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40's are a valid option and as you say much cheaper. The only issue is they hang down pretty far and can interfere with going prone or get hung up exiting a vehicle.
Agreed. Both very real drawbacks. Just listing it as an option as I have no experience with drums, but I know the 40's shoot. It could also be used as a reload if you need to swap mags after a first 30 rounds. Easier to carry than a drum.

Also I have not done any dynamic training with them but moving around in the house and what not I could see the length getting in the way at times. But maybe it's a compromise when you need more rounds (suppressive fire) but don't want to burn your barrel (still have to stop to change mags, just not as often) or spend a bunch of money on one 'mag'. I am in no way trying to say that the 40 is the answer, just an option for some.. maybe not for others.

That being said I would like to get a D60 as I do see some validity in having at least one. If for no other reason than to familiarize yourself with new equipment and not bother with anyone's internet opinions. That's worth $100 to me. Heck, who hasn't spent more than that on holsters, optics, slings or other gear that ended up in the trash. If you have a D60 and don't like it, you can always sell it probably for more than you paid... so it makes for a very low risk investment to do your own testing/vetting.

To each their own. Everyone has their own opinions and now having read all the comments this thread got pretty derailed by some. It was entertaining though, I'll give it that.
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Old 07-03-2020, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SHTF MAN View Post
Agreed. Both very real drawbacks. Just listing it as an option as I have no experience with drums, but I know the 40's shoot. It could also be used as a reload if you need to swap mags after a first 30 rounds. Easier to carry than a drum.

Also I have not done any dynamic training with them but moving around in the house and what not I could see the length getting in the way at times. But maybe it's a compromise when you need more rounds (suppressive fire) but don't want to burn your barrel (still have to stop to change mags, just not as often) or spend a bunch of money on one 'mag'. I am in no way trying to say that the 40 is the answer, just an option for some.. maybe not for others.

That being said I would like to get a D60 as I do see some validity in having at least one. If for no other reason than to familiarize yourself with new equipment and not bother with anyone's internet opinions. That's worth $100 to me. Heck, who hasn't spent more than that on holsters, optics, slings or other gear that ended up in the trash. If you have a D60 and don't like it, you can always sell it probably for more than you paid... so it makes for a very low risk investment to do your own testing/vetting.

To each their own. Everyone has their own opinions and now having read all the comments this thread got pretty derailed by some. It was entertaining though, I'll give it that.
No I agree it is a viable option. Only thing I would point out is that the 40 should be the initial mag and not a reload. They are a bit awkward in a mag pouch so better to just lead off with it.
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Old 07-03-2020, 07:30 PM
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No I agree it is a viable option. Only thing I would point out is that the 40 should be the initial mag and not a reload. They are a bit awkward in a mag pouch so better to just lead off with it.
Yep.

I believe I mentioned using the 40 as "first mag" on foot patrols a few pages back due to the ammo in drums "clanking"

Not AS good, but better.
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40's are a valid option and as you say much cheaper. The only issue is they hang down pretty far and can interfere with going prone or get hung up exiting a vehicle.
Yeah I bought some of the Magpuls when they came out and that's what I found. Fun, and they work, but unwieldy.
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Old Yesterday, 07:45 AM
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For the OP, a couple of pictures of one of my Romanian AK's with Romanian 75rd drum. It doesn't matter whether you have an A/R or AK. Advise, buy while you still can or cry later...





Primary Arms just had Romanian 75rd AK drums on sale but they are out of stock currently, they usually have the best price on them...

https://www.primaryarms.com/century-...zine-7-62x39mm


If you're an A/R owner primary arms has the Magpul D-60 drum

https://www.primaryarms.com/magpul-p...ack-mag576-blk
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