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Old 05-10-2019, 11:34 AM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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The overwhelming majority of Protestants don't have a clue as to who the early Church fathers and saints were
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... it is irrelevant to their faith.
The very Bible you study and can hold in your hands belies your point.
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:35 AM
JenFred JenFred is offline
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Do you make any distinction between the "tradition" of Mark chapter 7 and the "tradition" of the following verses?
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. (1 Cor. 11:2)

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. (2 Thess. 2:15)

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. (2 Thess. 3:6)
Yes. Mark 7 was to religious leaders who upheld their traditions to become "righteous". Their following the traditions became more important than finding God....as evidenced by the jewish religious leaders missing Christ totally....and then killing Him.

Traditions aren't bad. Many are/were used to point to Christ. We can learn from them. I don't think any of us deny that here. What I deny is using man's traditions as the only way to Christ. I also deny the belief that I cannot be whole as a Christian without ALL of man's words and ways and Traditions. I believe one can worship and love and enjoy a full Christian life by being a part of a church which follows thousands of years of writings and traditions....but which also follows Christ. I also believe that I can enjoy a full Christian life without making Tradition what I worship. The past is a good teacher. There is much to learn. But I won't put my new wine in old wine skins.

Our last church was a local church....except for a handful of people....everyone there was related to each other, and their families had built the church back in the 1800's. It was like stepping back into the 1950's, as far as formality and worship was concerned. Although I bet when they put a screen up for their hymns vs using hymnals, it nearly caused a church spilt! The people loved religiousity. They put on their best faces and best clothes before coming to church....and were there every time the church doors were open! But their pretty clothes and fake smiles hid the open graves inside of them. People had no idea how to study their Bibles. The sunday school materials asked questions of adults which I had in 1st/2nd grades. Easy questions....they tickled them enough with a false religiousness. And every month, every yr, they lose people. And think by singing their old-school hymns (not wrong to sing hymns...but they believe this is their higher morality) and shaming people who don't wear their Sunday best....that they will win souls for Christ. They are sooo full of playing what they think is a christian....that they hate people who actually live as followers of Christ. Their 1950's traditions trump following God for real. They follow what was....and have not thought to see if God is still with them. He's not....
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:51 AM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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Yes ...
What are those traditions to which Paul refers?
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:54 AM
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And I guess some things we won't agree upon concerning Traditions, because I don't believe I have to follow a succession from Peter to belong to the Church. I believe that the Church is built upon Christ, the apostles, and prophets....but I also believe that that is available to me without having to follow some line from Peter. Peter's writings teach me, and have been included in what is God-breathed Scripture....and from his/the Holy Spirit's writings and Peter's life....I have been taught Christ and how to live for Him and follow Him. I know it may not be agreed upon, but Peter is one of the ones who has taught me to have a full life in Christ....without me having to be a part of church x or church y, and without having to follow every bit of their traditions. And so, this may be a place where we disagree. And I'm ok with that. I feel it's ok for others to believe differently about things like this. I see the passion and care and love many here have for our Lord, and THAT IS EXCITING! And wonderful! And even without us agreeing on so much....one day we will see things clearly, and see God Himself....and THAT will be a day for us to rejoice, and to join hands, and to worship together...without any earthly trappings holding us back!
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:57 AM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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And I guess some things we won't agree upon concerning Traditions, because I don't believe I have to follow a succession from Peter to belong to the Church. I believe that the Church is built upon Christ, the apostles, and prophets....but I also believe that that is available to me without having to follow some line from Peter. Peter's writings teach me, and have been included in what is God-breathed Scripture....and from his/the Holy Spirit's writings and Peter's life....I have been taught Christ and how to live for Him and follow Him. I know it may not be agreed upon, but Peter is one of the ones who has taught me to have a full life in Christ....without me having to be a part of church x or church y, and without having to follow every bit of their traditions. And so, this may be a place where we disagree. And I'm ok with that. I feel it's ok for others to believe differently about things like this. I see the passion and care and love many here have for our Lord, and THAT IS EXCITING! And wonderful! And even without us agreeing on so much....one day we will see things clearly, and see God Himself....and THAT will be a day for us to rejoice, and to join hands, and to worship together...without any earthly trappings holding us back!
Does it not make sense to understand the Scripture within the context of the Tradition from which it came?
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Old 05-10-2019, 12:08 PM
JenFred JenFred is offline
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What are those traditions to which Paul refers?
Paul is referring to his/their teachings as to how to follow Christ. How to live a godly life. Don't forget what we've taught. The traditions are also translated as teachings. And thank God FOR the traditions and teachings which have withheld the test of time! The time period was a time of oral teachings, passed on. I appreciate that. I appreciate the work for thousands of years, which brought these teachings further. I appreciate, too, the reformation....which caused the catholic church to dial things back a bit....and become more Bible-based. It was painful then. Painful to splinter off....painful to be shattered....but I believe in the long run that it helped bring Truth back to the world, in a time when MEN were not living in truth. I grew up around people who thought all Catholics were going to hell....and vice versa. I don't believe that at all. My Bible doesn't say if I confess to be Orthodox or Catholic or some form of Protestant, that I will be saved.

So yes, Paul wanted the people he was writing to to follow the (new) traditions of Christianity. To not follow the world's patterns, nor the jew's patterns....but to be a follower of Christ Himself. (And not a follower only of paul, peter, appolos....) And for thousands of yrs, that was passed down thru oral and written history. Men have been debating religion since cain and able. It's what we do. But also the writings telling others to test what is spoken....does it line up with Scripture. Don't just follow man....see if what he says agrees. I'm guessing this us where that sola scritpura thing comes into play? So I do. Does this tradition line up with Scripture? Is it necessary for my salvation? Is it good to learn from? Is it needed for life and godliness?
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Old 05-10-2019, 12:19 PM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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... I appreciate, too, the reformation....which caused the catholic church to dial things back a bit....and become more Bible-based ...
Dial back what? How did the Reformation cause the Catholic Church to become more Bible-based than it was?
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Old 05-10-2019, 12:25 PM
JenFred JenFred is offline
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Does it not make sense to understand the Scripture within the context of the Tradition from which it came?
It does make sense. Alas, many of us have nothing against learning from traditions....I have an issue when those traditions become more worshipped than God is.

And I'll tell you....there are many people, sitting in alllll of the churches in this world that think them being in church when it is opened, and following church traditions themselves, will bring them salvation and eternal life.

One of my dearest friends is Catholic, and I think I regret most not going to mass with her when we lived newr one another....and then getting to ask her allllll the questions after. (She now lives in the upper midwest, I'm nearly as deep south as you can get.) But I looooved hearing her answers about why they crossed themselves, and the info she told me about confirmations and communion, and the prayers her kids used to sing before meals. They were so different than how I grew up. And the things they did had further meaning and further info about Christianity that I appreciated. There is always more to learn. But I've seen too many people who think they are good, and think they've done all the traditions...and gone to the church services....and they think that's their salvation. And it's across the board in churches and faiths....it takes something more to follow Christ. It takes dying to oneself and choosing to obey and to submit....and to spend time learning from the Holy Spirit. I don't understand living life without God in every part. He is everything.

And I guess part is me being genx and cynical, and part is seeing the adults before me think that their religious traditions would save them from hell.... And so I get my knickers twisted when told that because I don't know and follow every MAN from Peter on down, that I can't truly be a part of the Church. Remember....I lived in denominations that preached that same thing....we are the ONLY ONES gonna be in heaven....yet I've met men and women and children whose love for God and others was so beautiful and amazing....from all different flavors of Christianity. God is amazing in how He draws us all...from different paths....from hating Him....He draws us each in a way that will suit US. He knows us personally, and He loves us dearly....and He brings us to Him. I'm thankful that how He speaks with all of y'all is so personal, and so different. He pours His love into each of us....so what should we do now with all of that love?!?!
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Old 05-10-2019, 12:36 PM
JenFred JenFred is offline
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Dial back what? How did the Reformation cause the Catholic Church to become more Bible-based than it was?
The Catholic church, from what I've been taught, was charging $$ from believers, hoping they could buy their dead relatives' salvation into heaven. There were ways in which the people were being taught that was extra-biblical....and once the Bible started being printed in local languages....and people could own one and read one for themselves....many of those extra traditions were done away with. ....and honestly....you see this in protestant churches, too....someone is a charismatic speaker and preaches on how much need they have....and all the poor widow ladies are using their food money to send to a man that has a multi-million dollar house and a jet and all the greedy trappings of this earth. (Again, genx, and also....grew up in the heyday of the crooked televangelists. I don't trust those slick looking liars. Lol.)

...it's been awhile since I've read from back around the time of the reformation. But the Catholic church today does look different than it did, and imo for the better. ...also....I read aloud to my kids about some of the men and women after the reformation....when both sides were killing each other. (Such a difference than us debating on a forum.) And a little bit after, we met a family while camping and befriended them. And my kids later told me they weren't sure if they should tell the kids we weren't catholic. I told the parents the next time we camped together, and all four of us adults laughed our butts off. I had to have a loooong discussion with my kids about different times and changes and how we are different, but still both believe in Jesus.
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Old 05-10-2019, 12:41 PM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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It does make sense. Alas, many of us have nothing against learning from traditions....I have an issue when those traditions become more worshipped than God is.
Who worships traditions?
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Old 05-10-2019, 12:47 PM
JenFred JenFred is offline
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Interestingly enough, part of my family tree comes from Wittenburg. Idk if my family used to be Catholic...I think so....because of there being the fancy baptismal papers in my great-grandmother's trunk.... By the time of my great grandparents' generation, though, my family on my dad's side was not in church. My mother's mother's side was full of harsh "christianity" which was enforced physically, with many rules to follow. I don't know much about my maternal grandfather's side. At some point actually following Christ was lost, and replaced with no religion at all, or by following rules to become "godly", but not knowing Christ.
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Old 05-10-2019, 12:48 PM
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Who worships traditions?
I would suggest the ones who claim that I am outside of the Church because I don't follow their traditions.
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Old 05-10-2019, 12:50 PM
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...the ones who say that unless everyone believes exactly as they do....and this can be any flavor of christianity....that they cannot be part of the Church, part of God, part of eternity. ....the ones we will tiptoe around in heaven, so they don't know we are there....
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Old 05-10-2019, 12:57 PM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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The Catholic church, from what I've been taught, was charging $$ from believers, hoping they could buy their dead relatives' salvation into heaven.
Please elaborate on your point with primary sources.

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There were ways in which the people were being taught that was extra-biblical
What were these extra-biblical ways to which you refer?

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....and once the Bible started being printed in local languages
Was the lack of printing technology until the 16th century a fault of the Catholic Church?

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....and people could own one and read one for themselves....many of those extra traditions were done away with.
To what extra traditions do you refer?

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But the Catholic church today does look different than it did,
How so?

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and imo for the better.
In what way(s)?
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Old 05-10-2019, 01:02 PM
cat_1978 cat_1978 is offline
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...the ones who say that unless everyone believes exactly as they do....and this can be any flavor of christianity....that they cannot be part of the Church, part of God, part of eternity. ....the ones we will tiptoe around in heaven, so they don't know we are there....
The Holy Spirit is given to us in unique ways because we are unique. However the core beliefs should be the same if you are part of the Church of Jesus Christ. If the core beliefs are different than it simply does not make any sense. The Church cannot believe in multiple versions of whatever core belief there is. It is illogical.
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Old 05-10-2019, 01:12 PM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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Does it not make sense to understand the Scripture within the context of the Tradition from which it came?
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It does make sense. Alas, many of us have nothing against learning from traditions....I have an issue when those traditions become more worshipped than God is. ...
You are not making the distinction between essential Tradition, which is handed on as the Deposit of Faith, and nonessential traditions. As an example, the extra-biblical determination of what books are inspired is part of big "T" Tradition. Both Scripture and Tradition are to be accepted and honored with equal sentments of devotion and reverence.
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Old 05-10-2019, 07:07 PM
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.it's nice to learn about old church traditions....some are beautiful and amazing....but in the end, I choose to follow JESUS.
Wow! That really says it all. Thanks.
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Old 05-10-2019, 07:34 PM
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And I guess some things we won't agree upon concerning Traditions, because I don't believe I have to follow a succession from Peter to belong to the Church. I believe that the Church is built upon Christ, the apostles, and prophets....but I also believe that that is available to me without having to follow some line from Peter. Peter's writings teach me, and have been included in what is God-breathed Scripture....and from his/the Holy Spirit's writings and Peter's life....I have been taught Christ and how to live for Him and follow Him. I know it may not be agreed upon, but Peter is one of the ones who has taught me to have a full life in Christ....without me having to be a part of church x or church y, and without having to follow every bit of their traditions. And so, this may be a place where we disagree. And I'm ok with that. I feel it's ok for others to believe differently about things like this. I see the passion and care and love many here have for our Lord, and THAT IS EXCITING! And wonderful! And even without us agreeing on so much....one day we will see things clearly, and see God Himself....and THAT will be a day for us to rejoice, and to join hands, and to worship together...without any earthly trappings holding us back!
Well said!

God's plan for His church and salvation are so very simple. Many have made it complicated and very exclusive with silly rules and regulations that all point coincidentally, to their club/church.
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Old 05-10-2019, 07:58 PM
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it takes something more to follow Christ. It takes dying to oneself and choosing to obey and to submit....and to spend time learning from the Holy Spirit.
I 100% agree with what you've said...and you know what? I would almost guarantee that 99% of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christian monastics who you said such a statement to would agree 100%.

The places where you won't find the "dying to oneself, choosing to obey and to submit" concept to be popular is downstream of Zwingli in the reformation.
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Old 05-12-2019, 02:53 PM
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
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....but Peter is one of the ones who has taught me to have a full life in Christ....without me having to be a part of church x or church y, and without having to follow every bit of their traditions ...
Where does Peter state this?
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