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Old 03-15-2019, 08:27 AM
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I have had the idea in the past that bear spray is more powerful than pepper spray but recently I was told they are the same bear spray just holds more.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:40 AM
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I have had the idea in the past that bear spray is more powerful than pepper spray but recently I was told they are the same bear spray just holds more.
It really depends upon the manufacturer of the Oleoresin Capsicum. They vary greatly in quality and effectiveness. I think the reason that many people think it's more effective is maybe from seeing it in some form of video. Bear spray is generally made in a much larger delivery vessel so when deployed a lot more will come out and last a longer duration. Most personal self defense canisters are around the 2.5 to 5 oz sizes. Those smaller ones that are the size of the old binaca mouth freshener bottles are generally very useless and probably pose more of a threat to the user than the intended target.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:47 PM
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Bears seem to prefer some spice in their meals.
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Old 05-10-2019, 06:28 AM
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In general, without comparing specific brands, they're pretty much the same. But bear spray sprays a lot more volume a lot farther. It's a matter of getting a quick spritz in an eye and not being able to see versus being completely drenched in it from the waist up and having your entire body screaming in agony and having difficulty breathing.
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Old 05-13-2019, 12:47 AM
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In Wyoming last fall a guide was killed after he sprayed a Grizzly full in the face with Bear spray. It is a pain compliance chemical, and some things just keep coming. He also didn't have a round chambered in his 10mm Glock which Im sure he regretted.

Real research is showing spray is just a feel good the greenies are pushing to save the poor innocent bears.
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:52 AM
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In Wyoming last fall a guide was killed after he sprayed a Grizzly full in the face with Bear spray. It is a pain compliance chemical, and some things just keep coming.
The part that you failed to mention is that he sprayed the bear with bear spray AFTER he was already mortally wounded. That's an important piece of information you left out.

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The guide was carrying his bear spray and used it before he died but not, investigators believe, before sustaining mortal injuries — Game and Fish Regional Wildlife Supervisor Brad Hovinga said in an interview with WyoFile.
Quote:
We believe the fatal injuries occurred prior to him deploying bear spray,” Hovinga said. “We feel like he got to the location where he died on his own. All evidence [is] he made it there under his own power.
Quote:
In Uptain’s death, the role bear spray played remains uncertain. “We know the bear was sprayed,” Hovinga said, because investigators detected spray on the mother after they killed it. “The can was empty,” Hovinga said. “The injuries likely occurred before he was able to deploy bear spray. It could have worked perfectly.”
https://www.wyofile.com/10mm-glock-f...rizzly-attack/


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Real research is showing spray is just a feel good the greenies are pushing to save the poor innocent bears.
Citation? What is your source for this?
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Old 05-13-2019, 07:25 AM
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“He had an incisor piercing his brain that we feel is the fatal injury,” Blue told WyoFile. “We’re fairly confident the injury to his brain was the terminal event.

“Could he have staggered after that?” Blue asked. “I really don’t think so. I just don’t see him as having any ability to move after that. I can’t comment beyond that.”
Those quotes of your sounded like they had a very clear agenda so I read the article. They came from Fish and Game who want to be the only ones armed out there if at all possible. They also tossed in the standard 'guns are only for experts' stuff. The game and fish guy you quote has no business making the statement he did. He doesn't know anything. He's putting out a statement in order to influence the behavior of the public.

Coronor says Uptain died still in the bear's mouth when it put a tooth right into his brain. However he wasn't able to figure out exactly where the spraying happened purely because he never got to see the attack site to test for it. Not because it necessarily happened at an unknown location. The body was hauled out by deputies who didn't follow procedure which requires the coroner to release the body prior to moving it. The hunter the guide was with fled between the beginning of the attack and the spraying. So the bear got sprayed during the attack but continued long enough to kill the guy before moving on.

Here's a part I found quite interesting:

Quote:
Investigators found the Glock and its magazine in different locations, Hovinga told WyoFile. The evidence raised speculation that Chubon might have pushed the magazine release button below the trigger guard thinking it was a safety switch.

“In the process of trying to manipulate [it], we think he dropped the magazine, or it wasn’t engaged and it fell out when he picked [the pistol] up,” Hovinga said.

The Glock 10mm semi-automatic pistol has three safety features designed to prevent accidental discharge, according to web descriptions of the weapon, but none is an external “on-off switch” typical of many firearms. For safety reasons, many semi-automatic pistols are carried without a round in the chamber — essentially un-cocked.
The recommendations coming out of this from OSHA were that all parties in a group in bear country need to have a weapon against bears that they are familiar with readily available at all times. You don't bring 1 gun that only 1 person is familiar with on a backpack off to the side and then go gut an elk.

The most shocking part of all this is that everyone, and especially the writer of the article, seemed completely unfamiliar with guns or how to use them for defense. In Wyoming that's pretty startling. The article sounds like it was written by some New Yorker, the bow hunter sounded like he'd never touched a handgun before, and the Fish and Game spokesman sounded like he was in charge of Central Park.
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:39 AM
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Those quotes of your sounded like they had a very clear agenda so I read the article. They came from Fish and Game who want to be the only ones armed out there if at all possible. They also tossed in the standard 'guns are only for experts' stuff. The game and fish guy you quote has no business making the statement he did. He doesn't know anything. He's putting out a statement in order to influence the behavior of the public.

Coronor says Uptain died still in the bear's mouth when it put a tooth right into his brain. However he wasn't able to figure out exactly where the spraying happened purely because he never got to see the attack site to test for it. Not because it necessarily happened at an unknown location. The body was hauled out by deputies who didn't follow procedure which requires the coroner to release the body prior to moving it. The hunter the guide was with fled between the beginning of the attack and the spraying. So the bear got sprayed during the attack but continued long enough to kill the guy before moving on.

Here's a part I found quite interesting:



The recommendations coming out of this from OSHA were that all parties in a group in bear country need to have a weapon against bears that they are familiar with readily available at all times. You don't bring 1 gun that only 1 person is familiar with on a backpack off to the side and then go gut an elk.

The most shocking part of all this is that everyone, and especially the writer of the article, seemed completely unfamiliar with guns or how to use them for defense. In Wyoming that's pretty startling. The article sounds like it was written by some New Yorker, the bow hunter sounded like he'd never touched a handgun before, and the Fish and Game spokesman sounded like he was in charge of Central Park.
What was worse was the hunter turned tail and ran, allegedly throwing the guide, his gun.

Comments after the story in the Jackson Hole News were mostly pretty pathetic, rife with opinions sounding like the purest kind of citiot's. I thought people out there were into the outdoors?

Apparently they pieced together from blood patterns that he had got up from the initial mauling, and they figured it was at that point he sprayed the bear IIRC.

Wouldn't trust it, myself. Most of the accounts seem to have been made on half tamed bears in captivity, and seem to be glossed over for marketing. A wild, mad, hungry bear is a horse of a different colour. We're talking about the same animals that will eat their own cubs, risking an attack from the sow. They'll stick their head in a beehive, and not even pay attention to the bees in their face. Ammonia soaked rags don't seem to be a repellant in the slightest.

From what I've seen, OC marketed for dogs and people is around 1% and the big bear canisters are about 2%. Given that LE and soldiers are trained to fight through stuff that is probably a bit higher than 1%, I wouldn't have the slightest doubt that a bear wouldn't either, depending on his mood.

Heard of a couple instances where it didn't work either. One was by a fellow that I'm acquainted with, who told about using the entire can on a bear. The bear kept on coming back, until he shot it.

I'll take the lethal option, even if the lethal option is on the small side, and feel much better about it.
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:47 AM
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Those quotes of your sounded like they had a very clear agenda so I read the article. They came from Fish and Game who want to be the only ones armed out there if at all possible.
Yeah, you know more about the incident than the people who actually investigated the case. And then when the findings arem't agreeable to you, you invent some nonsensical story to explain it away. Totally logical

But then again, you're that same person that made this statement about the LV shooting https://www.survivalistboards.com/sh...s#post16170809

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But a CCW in the room next to him hearing what was obviously going on on the other side of the wall could have really messed up his activities with a couple mag dumps through said wall.

So yeah, I don't put to much stock in your opinion. Sorry.




BTW, this quote from you is also wrong.

Quote:
In general, without comparing specific brands, they're pretty much the same. But bear spray sprays a lot more volume a lot farther.
Bear spray is the strongest OC on the market except for one product by UDAP called the "World's Hottest."
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:56 AM
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From what I've seen, OC marketed for dogs and people is around 1% and the big bear canisters are about 2%. Given that LE and soldiers are trained to fight through stuff that is probably a bit higher than 1%, I wouldn't have the slightest doubt that a bear wouldn't either, depending on his mood.
!% of what? 2% of what?

You shouldn't throw out those numbers when you clearly don't understand what they represent.
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:25 AM
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All I did was repeat what the coroner who examined the body and ruled cause of death said in the article you posted. All my statements are entirely valid, even the one from the other thread you extracted from its context. The significant part is that you felt a need to find and drop red herrings. That would indicate that you don't believe you have a valid argument to make and have to go to extensive effort make invalid arguments to compensate.

I don't need to know anything. The examining coroner does, the Fish & Game spokesperson doesn't. I just believed the independent guy with no interest in the outcome, expertise, and extensive first hand knowledge of the incident over the guy who has a policy agenda to promote and no first hand knowledge of the incident.

Yes, if you're casually shooting people out of a window and someone in the room next to you starts shooting at you through your concealment it will disrupt your activities. I find it kind of nuts that someone would dispute that. Apparently you've never been the victim of a stress shooting course.

Yes bear spray and pepper spray, in general and without comparing specific products, are pretty much the same thing except that you're putting a greater volume of capsicum onto your target from a greater distance.

1% capsicum and 2% capsicum. That's the active ingredient in these things. It's the part that makes it not a water gun.



Bear spray, with an active ingredient of 1.34% capsicum. Delivers 9oz at 20 feet.



Pepper spray, with an active ingredient of 1.3% capsicum. Delivers 1oz at 10 feet.

I've been sprayed by both types, BTW. Bear spray sucks more because it gets everywhere and it's pretty much impossible to not breathe that stuff in because it saturates the air and so you're not just squinting as you fight, but also coughing and dry-heaving. Granted if you manage to spray pepper spray into someone's mouth you'll get the same effect. I've seen that happen. It's just harder to aim that much smaller stream.
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:44 AM
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Yes bear spray and pepper spray, in general and without comparing specific products, are pretty much the same thing except that you're putting a greater volume of capsicum onto your target from a greater distance.

I've been sprayed by both types, BTW. Bear spray sucks more because it gets everywhere and it's pretty much impossible to not breathe that stuff in because it saturates the air and so you're not just squinting as you fight, but also coughing and dry-heaving. Granted if you manage to spray pepper spray into someone's mouth you'll get the same effect, it's harder to aim that much smaller stream.
It's adorable that you are trying to educate me on this subject. You do realize that I have a few decades in the aerosol industry working with chemical deterrents, right?

Bear spray is never in a stream form, is regulated by the EPA, and the only number that means anything is the total capsaicinoids. Most dog deterrent is in the neighborhood of .25% TC, civilian OC spray in the .75% TC range, and bear deterrent must be between 1-2% TC.

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Yes, if you're casually shooting people and someone in the room next to you starts shooting at you through your concealment it will disrupt your activities.
I guess I was absent that day during my firearm training where the instructors stated "Don't bother identifying your target, and have zero idea what's behind it."
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:07 AM
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!% of what? 2% of what?

You shouldn't throw out those numbers when you clearly don't understand what they represent.
Pretty sure most people can figure it out even if they don't have a couple decades to study it.

Some will list it as a percentage of capsaicin, and a percentage of related capsinoids. Some will just add it up, and some will give you a scoville rating. The amount of capsaicin will be the deciding factor of how effective or "hot" it is.

I'd think that someone who bills himself as an "expert" would be able to shed some light on it himself, instead of acting obtuse. Unless you aren't acting?
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:59 AM
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Here's the thing folks: OC Trainer makes his money on pepper spray. The more people use pepper spray and the less people use guns, the wealthier he can get. Thus explains pretty much every post he's ever made on this forum.

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It's adorable that you are trying to educate me on this subject. You do realize that I have over 2 decades in the aerosol industry working with chemical deterrents, right?

Bear spray is never in a stream form, is regulated by the EPA, and the only number that means anything is the total capsaicinoids. Most dog deterrent is in the neighborhood of .25% TC, civilian OC spray in the .75% TC range, and bear deterrent must be between 1-2% TC.



I guess I was absent that day during my firearm training where the instructors stated "Don't bother identifying your target, and have zero idea what's behind it."
I didn't say bear spray was in a stream form. The subject of that adjective was the pepper spray.

https://www.fieldandstreamshop.com/p...brspryxxxxxhua

Uhh.. you need to actually read the ingredients on those cans? I said capsicum to simplify. It's Capsaicin and related capsaicinoids. AKA TC. Your percentages even match. If you really knew what you were talking about and thought I was referring to OC percentage you'd know that companies advertising that number usually claim 10 to 20%.

You're so incredibly full of ****. You know you're being misleading. There are a few different ways companies try to measure their brand against others in order to make it sound stronger. This is why I originally didn't get into all this crap of comparing specific brands. I'm surprised you didn't pull out SHU, MC, etc.

Yeah, a weak OC spray is usually marketed for use against dogs. A moderate percentage product is typically marketed toward humans. That's marketing. The EPA limits what can be labeled as bear spray as between 1 and 2%. Unless you count stupid states like NY there's no actual limit and it all comes down to marketing and business decisions on what is needed to accomplish the desired goal balanced with production cost. In fact you can buy 100% pure capsaicin.

Here's pretty much the exact same thing as the bear spray I listed above sold for home defense for sale on amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/SABRE-Red-Pep...dp/B002368VJ6/

There's also no such thing as 'law enforcement strength', 'dog strength' 'defense strength' or whatever. Those are marketing terms. I never saw any pepper spray can in law enforcement that couldn't have been purchased by anyone not in some crazy ass anti-defense state. In fact amazon's exactly where all my on-duty police OC came from. I've got Sabre Red pepper gel (1.33%) on my duty belt right now and in my patrol bag I've got Phantom OC (1.33%) fogger and a Fox 5.3 (2%) fogger grenade. All of which were purchased on Amazon using no special access.

As for your stupid red herring: The context was the idea that it was physically impossible for an armed person to disrupt or stop him from shooting. I gave an example demonstrating that it wasn't completely impossible. I was 100% correct unless you're asserting that he'd have just ignored it.
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:12 AM
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Here's the thing folks: OC Trainer makes his money on pepper spray. The more people use pepper spray and the less people use guns, the wealthier he can get. Thus explains pretty much every post he's ever made on this forum.
Blah, blah, blah, Walls of text from you = mumbo jumbo nonsense. Talking in circles without actually saying anything.

Your bruised ego isn't doing you any favors. How many times have I caught you fabricating on here? Move along so I don't have to keep pointing out your inconsistencies.

9-03-2017

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*Full disclosure*
I was involved in the defense spray industry for many years - Now retired from that industry.

https://www.survivalistboards.com/sh...d#post15489177
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:13 AM
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Pretty sure most people can figure it out even if they don't have a couple decades to study it.

Some will list it as a percentage of capsaicin, and a percentage of related capsinoids. Some will just add it up, and some will give you a scoville rating. The amount of capsaicin will be the deciding factor of how effective or "hot" it is.

I'd think that someone who bills himself as an "expert" would be able to shed some light on it himself, instead of acting obtuse. Unless you aren't acting?
From my understanding he just did OC training. Maybe sells it. If his classes are anything like any LE OC training I've ever seen it's a pre-made 5 minute slide show on a 3rd grade education level, they spray the students, they make sure the students don't have an asthma attack or whatever, and then they go home. The instructor's education on the matter isn't significantly more than what they provide their students.
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:16 AM
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Blah, blah, blah,

Your bruised ego isn't doing you any favors. How many times have I caught you fabricating on here? Move along so I don't have to keep pointing out your inconsistencies.

9-03-2017




https://www.survivalistboards.com/sh...d#post15489177
Zero times. You're blatantly wrong and convince pretty much no one with a long string of logical fallacies and simple false facts, then you claim victory. Over and over. I'm not the one with an ego.
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:19 AM
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Zero times. You're blatantly wrong and convince pretty much no one with a long string of logical fallacies and simple false facts, then you claim victory. Over and over. I'm not the one with an ego.
Lol. You are delusional.

Too funny. Run along now. Class is dismissed.
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