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Old 07-24-2009, 11:05 AM
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:12 AM
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Wow you guys really now how to **** up a metaphor

with the car and the driver...u got it all wrong.

it's that the person is the car: the person can be big and slow or small and fast or any other combo. the car has certain handling characteristics ike a person has coordination and timing. your brain is the driver. your brain controls the body.

so don't go trying to make it look like it's the martial art that has everything to do with it. it's the individual and his training. if it's a good fighter he will have mastered his martial arts and learned about others. some of you guys misunderstand the teachings of jeet kune do. it's not let's learn every move and use them when we feel appropriate. no. it's that there is no set moves meaning that you can move in any way you want in order to accomplish a strike, a kick, a manipulation, etc. it's using every part of your body as a weapon, using any motion your body can possibly make. it's about being unrestrained but at the same time very under control (going into a brawl like on every mma/ufc fight is not jeet kune do in any way)

being singe-sided/minded is a very dangerous thing.
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:21 AM
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Each and every fighting style has their pros and cons.

But there's a reason why the specialists in the armed forces across the world prefer systems like Krav Maga and Systema.

It works 'out of the box', there's no voodo involved and basically anyone can pick it up and learn it. It's highly adaptable and works great for close quarters.

No spinning kicks, flying side kicks etc.
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Warmachine View Post
Bj Penn is a perfect example of what im saying. He is a world class bjj black belt and his last 3 losses were all to good wrestlers.

Machida has good wrestling skills he proved that when he fought Tito Ortiz. He took Tito down easily. Dont think for one minute he is just a karate guy,lol. Machida is a complete fighter.

Wanderlai Silva has won 22 fights by ko,and 4 by way of submission. So i have no clue why you would call him a bjj fighter? And 4 of his losses were to good wrestlers.

Chuck Liddel was a wrestler way before he became a fighter. That is why he had such good takedown defense,and was hard to keep down on the mat.

As far as Fedor he is just a freak,and a complete all around fighter. He is one of my favorite fighters. I would love to see Fedor vs Brock.

MMA stands for mixed martial arts and good wrestlers excell at mma with the right mma training. You cant argue that fact.
I'm not talking about Wand... I'm talking about ANDERSON SILVA, you know the UFC Middleweight Champ (and here I thought you were an MMA expert).

Many males have wrestling backgrounds. That doesn't mean it's the only reason they excel at MMA. Fighters excel at MMA through a VARIETY of training in MULTIPLE styles, regardless of their background.

Man, trying to get a point across to you is like trying to herd cats.
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff350 View Post
Looking at the early UFC's, before the really was such a thing as "MMA," Royce Gracie pretty much dominated (BJJ). Most guys, even wrestlers, were totally incapacitated by him.

As far as wrestlers dominating MMA, I think they do have a distinct advantage. However, early wrestlers like Dan Severn didn't know how to end a fight! He was able to easily put his opponents on their backs but then couldn't put the away with subs or ground-n-pound. He picked these up quickly and became quite a force to be reckoned with.

In regards to Brock Lesnar, he is simply too huge, strong, and fast for any current UFC heavyweights to beat. He is a great wrestler, and as soon as he gets on top of the guys they are pretty much done. When Mir beat him it was an amateur mistake, one I don't see him making any time soon.

More on topic, while I haven't trained Krav Maga, it seems like a good system. The thing about training MMA is that while it is fight training, it is confined by a strict set of rules. No eye gouging, groin strikes, striking the throat, etc. Krav doesn't train with these rules, which I think is a good thing for the average person that wants to defend themselves on the street.

(P.S. The good thing about this thread is that it is inspiring me to get back in to the gym. I haven't been training in Martial Arts much lately but I want to get back in to it!)
Sure wrestlers were dominated by Royce, because they had never seen BJJ before. But things changed once they learned Bjj defence techniques.
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:18 PM
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Honestly,...I don't loyally follow anything except understanding the need to know how to absolutely kick the **** out the vast majority of potential adversaries. It's worked well for me so far. The whole seems to me, akin to the gun-snobs going over and over the finer points of this model vs. that. in the end,...your weapon either works, or it doesn't,...and one can employ it effectively, or not.

Someone can have (or be) the most expensive and finely tuned weapon in the world. And the simple fact remains,...that if that person's adversary pops him first, with a chipmunk .22, right where he wants it - the expert is done. End of story.

I believe in the martial art I'll call, "kicking ass and winning". It ain't pretty, but it's awfully damned effective.
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BladeGuru View Post
Im sorry but theres a reason ground fighting has a very limited amount of time with our soldiers vis a vis what they learn in h2h.

Its because nobody goes to the ground in a melee of 100 combatants that have guns, knives, etc.

And historically Brazilian Jits has killed absolutely no one in a war. Hell no jits has been used in a war since the Japanese invasion of Manchuria when rifles were still kind of ****ty.

Jits has its place but its a very short time in the continuum of fighting.

BG
Well,...in your own life experience,...where have you own experiences with hand-to-hand taken place,...on a battlefield or in your town? When you knew it was coming,...or when you were out with friends? You see my point?

My earlier comments still true,....I want to give credit where credit is due. I spent two months at Blackwater getting my "arse" handed to me on a daily basis by their MMA instructors. I know how to fight. Been there done that - a few times too many, sometimes got in some trouble. I can honestly say that I do NOT want to tangle with someone who is schooled in the stuff. And,...having said that, it is my opinion that most fights, if they aren't over very quickly (as they should be if handled properly) are going to the ground - and one had better know what they are doing when they get there. I consider a well trained enough MMA type enough of a threat that he's getting a bullet before it goes there, if I have a chanceto do so. My experience with it was that poignant. Ofcourse, these guys were big, lean and current competitors. And ya know what? The baddest one of them all, wasn't big,....wore hislittle "boat shoes" (Topsiders) to work everyday and was quite the preppie. I'd NEVER had seen him coming. Bad news for any punks that try to call him out at the mall.
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BladeGuru View Post
Im sorry but theres a reason ground fighting has a very limited amount of time with our soldiers vis a vis what they learn in h2h.

Its because nobody goes to the ground in a melee of 100 combatants that have guns, knives, etc.

And historically Brazilian Jits has killed absolutely no one in a war. Hell no jits has been used in a war since the Japanese invasion of Manchuria when rifles were still kind of ****ty.

Jits has its place but its a very short time in the continuum of fighting.

BG
Been in the military recently? You're flat WRONG on that.
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Old 07-24-2009, 02:13 PM
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I just added the part in about Royce Gracie dominating the early UFC's for historical backround. Since we are comparing "one dimensional" fight systems to each other, I thought it was pertinent. Royce Gracie (BJJ) beat Dan Severn (Wrestler) in UFC 4 by Triangle Choke (and Severn outweighed Gracie by about 70lbs).

Every decent fighter in MMA now trains in multiple styles obviously, you simply can't win without a well rounded game.
Dan Severn never even hurd of a triangle choke back in 1993 nor did any wrestlers.

But i agree with the last sentence of your post.
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Old 07-24-2009, 02:40 PM
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I'm not talking about Wand... I'm talking about ANDERSON SILVA, you know the UFC Middleweight Champ (and here I thought you were an MMA expert).Not once did i claim to be an mma expert so where is this bs coming from?
Many males have wrestling backgrounds. That doesn't mean it's the only reason they excel at MMA. Fighters excel at MMA through a VARIETY of training in MULTIPLE styles, regardless of their background. Wrestling is a very good base for a mma fighter,and will give you control of the ground game if you have sub defense.I was a hs and college wrestler and have fought amateur mma and pro, i know what im talking about.

Man, trying to get a point across to you is like trying to herd cats.
Not if you make a valid point. Here was my response to your last post-

Bj Penn is a perfect example of what im saying. He is a world class bjj black belt and his last 3 losses were all to good wrestlers.

Machida has good wrestling skills he proved that when he fought Tito Ortiz. He took Tito down easily. Dont think for one minute he is just a karate guy,lol. Machida is a complete fighter.

Wanderlai Silva has won 22 fights by ko,and 4 by way of submission. So i have no clue why you would call him a bjj fighter? And 4 of his losses were to good wrestlers.

Chuck Liddel was a wrestler way before he became a fighter. That is why he had such good takedown defense,and was hard to keep down on the mat.

As far as Fedor he is just a freak,and a complete all around fighter. He is one of my favorite fighters. I would love to see Fedor vs Brock.

MMA stands for mixed martial arts and good wrestlers excell at mma with the right mma training. You cant argue that fact.

All valid points that show how important good wrestling is in mma.

I dont claim to be an expert or claim to be a great mma fighter but i have fought and i have real life experiences to back my beliefs. I may be partial to wrestling since i wrestled all my life but trust me i understand the importance of cross training. I have been doing bjj since the early 90's, muay thai going on 14 years now, boxing 22 years, ive never trained at a judo club but ive rolled with judo black belts hundreds of times at mma gyms, ive sparred with guys in many different stand up styles like tai kwon do,tang soo do,kick boxing,karate,muay thai,boxing,and many others i cant spell or pronounce. So im not saying wrestling is the one and only art. It is a very important weapon to have in your arsenal.
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Old 07-24-2009, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Warmachine View Post
Not if you make a valid point. Here was my response to your last post-

Bj Penn is a perfect example of what im saying. He is a world class bjj black belt and his last 3 losses were all to good wrestlers.

Machida has good wrestling skills he proved that when he fought Tito Ortiz. He took Tito down easily. Dont think for one minute he is just a karate guy,lol. Machida is a complete fighter.

Wanderlai Silva has won 22 fights by ko,and 4 by way of submission. So i have no clue why you would call him a bjj fighter? And 4 of his losses were to good wrestlers.

Chuck Liddel was a wrestler way before he became a fighter. That is why he had such good takedown defense,and was hard to keep down on the mat.

As far as Fedor he is just a freak,and a complete all around fighter. He is one of my favorite fighters. I would love to see Fedor vs Brock.

MMA stands for mixed martial arts and good wrestlers excell at mma with the right mma training. You cant argue that fact.

All valid points that show how important good wrestling is in mma.

I dont claim to be an expert or claim to be a great mma fighter but i have fought and i have real life experiences to back my beliefs. I may be partial to wrestling since i wrestled all my life but trust me i understand the importance of cross training. I have been doing bjj since the early 90's, muay thai going on 14 years now, boxing 22 years, ive never trained at a judo club but ive rolled with judo black belts hundreds of times at mma gyms, ive sparred with guys in many different stand up styles like tai kwon do,tang soo do,kick boxing,karate,muay thai,boxing,and many others i cant spell or pronounce. So im not saying wrestling is the one and only art. It is a very important weapon to have in your arsenal.
And I never argued that wrestling WASN'T important. I'm simply saying it's not THE most important. It's only a percentage, just like BJJ and stand up is.
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Old 07-24-2009, 02:56 PM
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And I never argued that wrestling WASN'T important. I'm simply saying it's not THE most important. It's only a percentage, just like BJJ and stand up is.
Ill agree with you, you are right. Lets stop bickering. Ill even go as far as to say you can probably find something, atleast one usefull thing in any martial art or style.
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:00 PM
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Ill agree with you, you are right. Lets stop bickering. Ill even go as far as to say you can probably find something, atleast one usefull thing in any martial art or style.
Absolutely. But you can't find jack sh!t in wrestling.

Kidding, kidding.

I actually enjoy wrestling. I never did wrestle Freestyle but did Greco for a number of years.
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:03 PM
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Absolutely. But you can't find jack sh!t in wrestling.

Kidding, kidding.

I actually enjoy wrestling. I never did wrestle Freestyle but did Greco for a number of years.
LOL

I wrestled freestyle but i have trained with alot of greco roman guys. Greco is great for the clinch and upper body control and throws.
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:11 PM
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The funny thing about these two threads is that I think we are all saying about the same thing, but misreading each other and getting all confused! LOL.

To add fuel to the fire, wrestling is one of the only high school/collegiate sports I can think of where athletes have to make weight. This gives wrestlers a distinct advatage when transitioning in to MMA, as they are already used to cutting weight for weigh-ins.
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:44 PM
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The funny thing about these two threads is that I think we are all saying about the same thing, but misreading each other and getting all confused! LOL.

To add fuel to the fire, wrestling is one of the only high school/collegiate sports I can think of where athletes have to make weight. This gives wrestlers a distinct advatage when transitioning in to MMA, as they are already used to cutting weight for weigh-ins.
LOL
I agree with this entire post.
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:47 PM
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Holy sh!t, we all agree! Mark this moment down in the history books!
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Old 11-29-2009, 11:32 PM
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As in every thing variety is the spice of life, I believe every martial art has its up and downs I do believe some are for sport, and others are for self defense. I was a wrestler for six years, and I loved it and encourage people to learn, but as a self defense a wrestler has to reprogram him self. In wrestling you are taught never go to your back in MMA you go to your back or you lose. You learn punching combinations , and kicking chokes none of which are legal. But all and all it is a good base to start with.

I now train in krav maga and believe it is a complete self defense. You train in hand to hand combat, ground fighting, kicking, multiple opponents, knife defense, knife fighting, gun defense, long gun defense, bat or long stick defense. Also the cardio aspect of it is amazing, it hard to win without wind. Good luck train hard and be safe.
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:43 AM
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I agreed with you until you said 'Tae Kwon Do', then I started laughing uncontrollably, falling out of my chair.
I thought the same thing when I read it too....but then I remembered some stories told from Old School Marines, who went to Vietnam, who told me stories of the ROK (Republic of Korea) Marines....they said they were vicious ****ers and that the Vietnamese were scared of them more than the Americans....they said their hand to hand combat was some scary ****....which was probably Tae KWon Do and Hapkido.....

You see the TKD they do in the Korean Military is alot different than what they do here in the U.S......here in the States you can't make your students do things they do in Korea......or instuctors in the U.S. would not have too many students. The training over there is more intense and harder....not like here in the U.S. where you would have guys complaining or suing your ass because they get hurt.....and then go out of business.

I have the same problem in my own school....if I make my classes too hard I lose students.....if I make my class too easy then my hardcore students feel they are not getting enough training....I have to make it where both types of students are happy....I personally like to train hard and realistic....hard warm-ups, excercises, hard sparring where sometimes you might get cut or bruised.....but if I want to make a living from this then I have to make it convenient for everybody.
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:51 AM
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Thats just it, a good wrestler will always have the dominant position. Mount,cross body,back,etc. Thats why a wrestler with no traditional martial arts training(Brock Lesnar) beat a bjj black belt with 20+ years of training(Frank Mir). Frank is an experienced mma fighter and Brock has what 2 or 3 mma fights?

Look at the champ GSP his wrestling takedowns are unstopable,and his wrestling is great, he always gets and holds dominant position. Great stand up also.

Why was Randy Coture so succesfull and a 2 weight class UFC champion? Great wrestling.

To make it in mma you must be a complete fighter wrestling,bjj,judo,muay thai,boxing,conditioning,heart. But put a good wrestler against any one of those arts and the wrestler wins 90% of the time.
First of all Frank Mir beat Lesnar in their first fight...then Brock had to learn BJJ so he could figure how to beat it or defend against it....when Randy Corture first started fighting in MMA, before he fought in UFC,...he got his ass kicked in Japan several times and he lost a few times in the U.S. before he started winning. He also had to learn BJJ to know how defend against it.....so yes BJJ is the ultimate groundfghting style not wrestling....oh yeah and I seem to remember that he lost to a BJJ black belt recently....the Big Nog...and GSP is a black belt in BJJ as well.....if he did not think it was important I don't think he would have studied it long enough to get a black belt

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