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Old 07-23-2009, 06:46 PM
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And for a good reason; too many variables. The main one being physically fit and trained. Most are lazy and scared of life threatening or crippling injuries. Animals fight to achieve dominance; not death or even injury; so they can survive another day. Pack light, pack all the time, use what your packing fast and effective. Hope no body ever gets the drop on ya.

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Old 07-23-2009, 08:27 PM
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Warmachine View Post
Thats just it, a good wrestler will always have the dominant position. Mount,cross body,back,etc. Thats why a wrestler with no traditional martial arts training(Brock Lesnar) beat a bjj black belt with 20+ years of training(Frank Mir). Frank is an experienced mma fighter and Brock has what 2 or 3 mma fights?

Look at the champ GSP his wrestling takedowns are unstopable,and his wrestling is great, he always gets and holds dominant position. Great stand up also.

Why was Randy Coture so succesfull and a 2 weight class UFC champion? Great wrestling.

To make it in mma you must be a complete fighter wrestling,bjj,judo,muay thai,boxing,conditioning,heart. But put a good wrestler against any one of those arts and the wrestler wins 90% of the time.
Lesnar beat Mir because Mir was an idiot. What about their first fight? Different results.

Since we're so focused on MMA, what about:

- Fedor (Sambo / Judo)
- Machida (Karate / BJJ)
- Penn (BJJ)
- Silva (Muay Thai / BJJ)
- Liddell (Kickboxing)

You can't sit here and say that wrestling dominates MMA, because it doesn't. That's why it's called MMA, not "wrestler's learning to box".
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by kajunman1 View Post
Most people are:

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And for a good reason; too many variables. The main one being physically fit and trained. Most are lazy and scared of life threatening or crippling injuries. Animals fight to achieve dominance; not death or even injury; so they can survive another day. Pack light, pack all the time, use what your packing fast and effective. Hope no body ever gets the drop on ya.

YouTube - Worlds Fastest Shooter -- 8 rounds in 1 second
I never get tired of watching him.....
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:57 PM
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I agree with a lot of the OP's statements in regards to Krav. I think that a little perspective is in order in regards to the style. Also, I do think the style has merit and would be a good option for those interested in self defense.
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lockjaw View Post
Lesnar beat Mir because Mir was an idiot. What about their first fight? Different results.

Since we're so focused on MMA, what about:

- Fedor (Sambo / Judo)
- Machida (Karate / BJJ)
- Penn (BJJ)
- Silva (Muay Thai / BJJ)
- Liddell (Kickboxing)

You can't sit here and say that wrestling dominates MMA, because it doesn't. That's why it's called MMA, not "wrestler's learning to box".
Bj Penn is a perfect example of what im saying. He is a world class bjj black belt and his last 3 losses were all to good wrestlers.

Machida has good wrestling skills he proved that when he fought Tito Ortiz. He took Tito down easily. Dont think for one minute he is just a karate guy,lol. Machida is a complete fighter.

Wanderlai Silva has won 22 fights by ko,and 4 by way of submission. So i have no clue why you would call him a bjj fighter? And 4 of his losses were to good wrestlers.

Chuck Liddel was a wrestler way before he became a fighter. That is why he had such good takedown defense,and was hard to keep down on the mat.

As far as Fedor he is just a freak,and a complete all around fighter. He is one of my favorite fighters. I would love to see Fedor vs Brock.

MMA stands for mixed martial arts and good wrestlers excell at mma with the right mma training. You cant argue that fact.

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Old 07-23-2009, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kajunman1 View Post
Most people are:

Attachment 17971

And for a good reason; too many variables. The main one being physically fit and trained. Most are lazy and scared of life threatening or crippling injuries. Animals fight to achieve dominance; not death or even injury; so they can survive another day. Pack light, pack all the time, use what your packing fast and effective. Hope no body ever gets the drop on ya.

YouTube - Worlds Fastest Shooter -- 8 rounds in 1 second
Think your in the wrong section there buddy. Its okay you"ll be alright.
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:50 PM
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Warmachine, MMA is not a good indicator of individual styles. The only good indicator of styles is personal experience and the old UFC fights.

Studying how to employ wresting against a person using the guard who is trying to choke you out, punch or arm lock you is not wrestling, it's MMA. Nor is it BJJ it is MMA. Nor is either one of them a street fight, it is MMA.

With all of that said, MMA has show us a lot about what styles are not very effective. For instance, for all of those that say style doesn't matter it's the person that matters. This is easy to disprove. If that were true then you would see Karate guys, with no cross training whatsoever, compete in MMA, and use only MMA to win.

I believe that a style that is competitive and that has the most liberal rules is generally better training for self defense. Although to obtain effective self defense skills I think that reality based training is a must, bu that is definitely a topic for another thread.

Cross training in proven effective styles is the key. I think.
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:58 PM
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Warmachine, MMA is not a good indicator of individual styles. The only good indicator of styles is personal experience and the old UFC fights.

Studying how to employ wresting against a person using the guard who is trying to choke you out, punch or arm lock you is not wrestling, it's MMA. Nor is it BJJ it is MMA. Nor is either one of them a street fight, it is MMA.

With all of that said, MMA has show us a lot about what styles are not very effective. For instance, for all of those that say style doesn't matter it's the person that matters. This is easy to disprove. If that were true then you would see Karate guys, with no cross training whatsoever, compete in MMA, and use only MMA to win.
I believe that a style that is competitive and that has the most liberal rules is generally better training for self defense. Although to obtain effective self defense skills I think that reality based training is a must, bu that is definitely a topic for another thread.

Cross training in proven effective styles is the key. I think.
That is what im saying. You cant find a pure judo guy who does well in mma,or a pure muay thai guy,or a pure bjj guy. But Brock lesnar is a pure wrestler with minimal mma training and now the champ.
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:43 PM
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Again another korean vs korean. Show me a Korean vs a Thai, or a Korean vs a European, or a Korean vs an American then I will give you a point.
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:44 PM
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That is what im saying. You cant find a pure judo guy who does well in mma,or a pure muay thai guy,or a pure bjj guy. But Brock lesnar is a pure wrestler with minimal mma training and now the champ.
One guy, who happens to be massive, does not make the statement true that wrestlers dominate MMA. Wrestling is good for take downs and some ground control. After that it's Brazilian Ju-Jitsu's world. Before that it is muay Thai / American Boxing's world.

Wrestling is just a segway.
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:51 PM
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BTW we have guys that are pure wrestlers and come in to train stand up with Judo and Jujitsu guys. They are good, I see value in wrestling. We practice single and double leg shots. We use sprawling.

Wrestling just has less ways to end a fight than most other systems. Muay Thai is all about about striking and about 80% of it's total techniques can be fight enders. BJJ is all about grappling and maybe 50% of it's techniques are fight enders. Wrestling is all about grappling but maybe only 15-20% of it's techniques are fight enders.

(p.s. I don't think 'enders' is a word) lol
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:07 AM
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Looking at the early UFC's, before the really was such a thing as "MMA," Royce Gracie pretty much dominated (BJJ). Most guys, even wrestlers, were totally incapacitated by him.

As far as wrestlers dominating MMA, I think they do have a distinct advantage. However, early wrestlers like Dan Severn didn't know how to end a fight! He was able to easily put his opponents on their backs but then couldn't put the away with subs or ground-n-pound. He picked these up quickly and became quite a force to be reckoned with.

In regards to Brock Lesnar, he is simply too huge, strong, and fast for any current UFC heavyweights to beat. He is a great wrestler, and as soon as he gets on top of the guys they are pretty much done. When Mir beat him it was an amateur mistake, one I don't see him making any time soon.

More on topic, while I haven't trained Krav Maga, it seems like a good system. The thing about training MMA is that while it is fight training, it is confined by a strict set of rules. No eye gouging, groin strikes, striking the throat, etc. Krav doesn't train with these rules, which I think is a good thing for the average person that wants to defend themselves on the street.

(P.S. The good thing about this thread is that it is inspiring me to get back in to the gym. I haven't been training in Martial Arts much lately but I want to get back in to it!)
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:13 AM
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BTW we have guys that are pure wrestlers and come in to train stand up with Judo and Jujitsu guys. They are good, I see value in wrestling. We practice single and double leg shots. We use sprawling.

Wrestling just has less ways to end a fight than most other systems. Muay Thai is all about about striking and about 80% of it's total techniques can be fight enders. BJJ is all about grappling and maybe 50% of it's techniques are fight enders. Wrestling is all about grappling but maybe only 15-20% of it's techniques are fight enders.

(p.s. I don't think 'enders' is a word) lol
Tell that to Randy Coutore,Brock Lesnar,Shane Carwin,Matt Hughes,GSP,Dan Henderson,Rampage Jackson,Kevin Randelman,i can go on all night.

Most Wrestlers win by ground and pound.

As far as muay thai having more ways to end a fight. I cant count how many wrestlers i have seen beat muay thai guys. I remember when Kit Cope tried to fight in the ufc. He got taken down and tapped at will. And he was a muay thai champion. In mma if you place any one dementional fighting style against another wrestling will win 99% of the time.
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:22 AM
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Looking at the early UFC's, before the really was such a thing as "MMA," Royce Gracie pretty much dominated (BJJ). Most guys, even wrestlers, were totally incapacitated by him.
That was 1993 bjj was the new kid on the block in the states. Wrestlers and every martial artist for that matter had no submission defense then. Now in 2009 the sport has evolved.

Royce Gracies last ufc fight he was totally dominated and got his arm broken in a submission by a wrestler. Matt Hughes.
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:22 AM
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Tell that to Randy Coutore,Brock Lesnar,Shane Carwin,Matt Hughes,GSP,Dan Henderson,Rampage Jackson,Kevin Randelman,i can go on all night.

Most Wrestlers win by ground and pound.

As far as muay thai having more ways to end a fight. I cant count how many wrestlers i have seen beat muay thai guys. I remember when Kit Cope tried to fight in the ufc. He got taken down and tapped at will. And he was a muay thai champion. In mma if you place any one dementional fighting style against another wrestling will win 99% of the time.
I am not posting again about this subject after this because it is pointless. However you are citing people who have wrestling backgrounds who FINISHED the fights with other systems' techniques. Ground and pound finished with the pounding not the grounding. Pound = hands = boxing, not wrestling.
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:37 AM
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I am not posting again about this subject after this because it is pointless. However you are citing people who have wrestling backgrounds who FINISHED the fights with other systems' techniques. Ground and pound finished with the pounding not the grounding. Pound = hands = boxing, not wrestling.
So if a judo guy hip tossed you on to your back and then followed up with a punch to your jaw judo didnt win the fight?

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Old 07-24-2009, 01:38 AM
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Hey you guys check out the mma fighter vs krav maga expert video i posted on the other thread.
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:45 AM
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I've been trying to tell people this for ages; Krav Maga is a marketing scheme.
There's nothing in Krav Maga that isn't taught in other self defense courses. The only thing you can pull from Krav Maga that's useful is it's philosophy - that of turning defense into offence as quickly as possible, then immediately leaving the area when you've eliminated the threat.
For some brain candy at the airport I picked up one of the novelizations of the Splinter Cell games. The 'author', attempting to build a back story for Sam Fisher, insisted that his close combat skills were honed in a civilian Krav Maga class on his own time (!?).
So he's trying to tell readers that a highly skilled techno spy for the most highly funded agency, the NSA, has become a lethal weapon from KM courses at a local civilian school ran by some chick. What a meshuguna idea.
KM is marketing, an attempt to get in on the martial arts industry.
That said, if anyone cares to look it up or find samples of the DVD's, the Israeli Kapap knife fighting routines are really well done and thought out. The blow Gunsite's knife videos out of the water. Kapap's F.I.G.H.T. knife techniques are superb.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:41 AM
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That was 1993 bjj was the new kid on the block in the states. Wrestlers and every martial artist for that matter had no submission defense then. Now in 2009 the sport has evolved.

Royce Gracies last ufc fight he was totally dominated and got his arm broken in a submission by a wrestler. Matt Hughes.
I just added the part in about Royce Gracie dominating the early UFC's for historical backround. Since we are comparing "one dimensional" fight systems to each other, I thought it was pertinent. Royce Gracie (BJJ) beat Dan Severn (Wrestler) in UFC 4 by Triangle Choke (and Severn outweighed Gracie by about 70lbs).

Every decent fighter in MMA now trains in multiple styles obviously, you simply can't win without a well rounded game.
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