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Making the Most of the �Little Gun�

13K views 27 replies 19 participants last post by  Ridge138 
#1 ·
Making the Most of the “Little Gun”

I have lots of experience with the .410.

While I carry one for woods walking and to shoot garden varmints, my 12-ga. Winchester Model 12 riot gun is the "go to" gun for things which go bump in the night. So, If you intend to own ONLY ONE shotgun, get a 12-ga. pump. Reduced recoil law enforcement loads are viable if females and youngsters must use the same gun. Their recoil compares to a 20-ga. load.

The .410 slugs are accurate in some guns, but you can determine that only by testing. I found them mostly ineffective on game larger than foxes, at ranges beyond about 30 yards.

Grouping of shotgun slugs from a plain, bead-sighted single-barrel shotgun at best is 1 inch spread per ten yards of range. AND your gun may not hit where it looks, so you must test and practice. You could spend $25 in ammo just to find out that it doesn't work for you...

A .410 slug weighs about 80 grains. While initial velocity is high, it loses half its striking energy in the first 50 yards, where its energy compares to a .25-20 rifle firing black powder loads. Certainly no bear gun!

Better than .410 slugs for larger varmints or home defense are the 3-inch five-pellet 00 buckshot loads now popular for home defense and widely available. In most .410s they are much better than slugs and are the best choice. They put the same number of pellets on a silhouette target at 25 yards that a cylinder bore 12-ga. riot gun firing 9-pellet 00 buck does at 40.
You can expect 4 out of 5 pellets striking an Army "E" silhouette at 25 yards, which is a killing pattern. At 40 yards the .410 gets at best 3 hits out of 5, which is barely adequate, if one more more pellets happen to hit a vital area.

An accepted standard is that total kinetic energy delivered by buckshot on a hostile target should equal that of a hit from an M1911 .45 pistol firing service ammunition. That is the standard that the Army has used since WW2. If you are lucky, you might land 2 pellets out of 5 at 50 yards your Zombie silhouette, if your particular gun likes the load, still, better shoot him twice!

I spent $250 in ammo test firing various .410 rounds in three guns, a full-choke, high-dollar Beretta, a sawed off cylinder-bore Iver-Johnson and a modified choke H&R youth gun to prove the above to my satisfaction. If your Daddy’s .410 happens to be a stone killer, it may indeed be that you have a great gun and that mine are all POS, because the luck of the blind monkey rules the universe in these things.

Each 00 buckshot pellet fired from a .410 has about the same energy at 25 yards as a .32 ACP pistol slug. Less than 3 pellets hits do not total our magic 350 ft.lbs. of kinetic energy and so cannot be considered effective for defense or hunting deer-sized game. The longest range at which you can expect all 3 pellets hitting when firing the shorter 2-1/2 inch buckshot rounds is about 20 yards from a typical single-barrel shotgun.

If using the Judge revolver no farther than 7 yards in the best case, based on one gun I tested. Velocity really drops off quickly from a .410 handgun. Winchester 5-pellet 00 buck gets 1230 fps from a standard shotgun, and only 800 or so from the short-barrelled Judge revolver and 880 fps from the long-barreled one.

When using a .410 with bird shot for hunting small game, it will work OK IF you stay within its rather severe range limitations. The most important thing to remember is that given its small payload (1/2 oz. in the 2-1/2 inch shell and 11/16 oz. in the 3 inch shell) you have very few pellets in the pattern.

In order for a shotgun pattern to be effective on a game animal the size of a rabbit, or a bird the size of a pheasant or duck, you need to achieve a number of pellets hits equal to the shot size, such as six No. 6 or 8 No. 8 within 20 square inches or a 5 inch circle paper plate, about the size of a rabbit.

Having less than 200 shot in the shell makes obtaining effective patterns difficult beyond about 10 yards because the pattern spreads about 1 inch per yard of target distance. Using shot larger than 7-1/2 in the 3 inch shell or No.8 in the 2 inch shell is ineffective unless you limit ranges to 25 yards from a single-barrel shotgun, or 5 yards with the Judge revolver.

It is important to fire test patterns with your gun and ammo and to PRACTICE with the smaller gun, learning to acquire the target and shoot quickly, so that you have clear knowledge of its capabilities and develop enough shooting skill on your part to somewhat make up for its reduced effectiveness.

The biggest drawback in using a .410 is that developing skill requires buying and shooting up more ammo in testing and practice to obtain that knowledge and maintain that skill. A casual shooter needs to fire 100 shells a year at clay birds to simply maintain basic skills and not decline.

To improve your skill you need to shoot a case of 250 shells a year just in practice. And .410 ammo costs about TWICE as much as the same number of 12-ga. or 20-ga. shells because the factories don't produce or sell as many. If you shop seasonal promotions you can buy case lots of "dove & quail" no. 8 or or "duck & pheasant" no. 6 12-ga. or 20-ga. loads reasonably, but not .410s. My advice is to get either a 12-ga. or 20-ga. gun and stock up on bargain ammo whenever you find it.

You won't find any bargains in .410 ammo. At least, I've never seen any. In some areas it is difficult to find .410 cartridges in shot sizes smaller than No.6. Marketing people try to make up for the .410s lack of killing power by pushing larger shot, which is pure lunacy, particularly large shot such as No.4, which is entirely useless beyond 20 yards unless you happen to have a full choke barrel which "likes it". In those cases a gun may pattern so tightly that you must shoot it like a rifle, which means that you could have used your .22 pistol and saved a dollar!

Shot sizes of No. 6 or larger should only be used in choke bore .410 guns which pattern the particular load well, within the ranges at which you have determined that they are actually "effective." A shot load throwing "effective" patterns means that you can reliably depend upon putting a number of pellets equal to the shot size, such as four No. 4s, five No. 5s, six No.6s, seven No.7-1/2s or eight No. 8 shot on your 5-inch paper plate at your given range. Determining this means firing in a rapidly thrown-up 2 second instinctive snap-shot. Misses with a single buckshot do not count anything!

Given the modest shot capacity of a .410 the maximum useful range at which you can expect effective game patterns with any confidence is only 25 yards under the best circumstances. With cylinder bore guns you may do no better than 20 yards...With a Judge revolver no more than 5-7 yards.. I can kill grouse with my slingshot flipping a stone that far for less money and more silently.

There is NO substitute for patterning your gun. You do not have to dissect shells, count pellets, put up a big piece of paper, count all the pellets, draw circles and figure pellet percentages. But it is necessary to determine where the center of your pattern falls in relation to the sights, and to assess whether patterns are uniform, or if they tend to be thicker towards the center or patchy around the edges.

Take a roll of wide butcher paper, roll it out and hang it along on a wire fence. Then take 5-inch paper plates, your representation of a rabbit, duck or pheasant. Staple these every 4 feet or so along the rolled out butcher paper until you have five or six of them. Now, then take your walking shotgun, load, walk TEN paces away from the fence, turn and fire quickly at the first plate you see. This should be natural-point snap shooting as you would at a flushing bird. Turn around, walk away another 5 paces, repeat, turn and shoot the next one, etc. until you have fired five patterns at 5 paper plates, the closest at ten paces and the farthest about 30 paces away. Try 35 paces if you are a dreamer, of course. Looking these patterns over and repeating the exercise again with each shot size and counting the hits on the plate will give you a crystal clear perception of what your little .410 will (or won't) do.

After doing this exercise you will probably come to one of two conclusions, which I did:

Use the .410 only where the reduced weight and cube of gun and ammo is worth its extra cost. Such as when you have a rifle-shotgun combo for the survival ruck in your boat, private aircraft or as a spare gun at the hunting or fishing camp. It is NOT TO BE your ONLY shotgun to depend on. The .410 is a great as an EXTRA gun, especially for use by a recoil-shy family member.

You will then forget the .410 slug fantasy. Instead buy a hundred rounds of 5 pellet 00 for large varmints or defense use, 250 rounds of 3-inch No. 7-1/2s to hunt small game with and 250 rounds of 2-1/2" No. 8 for clay bird practice. Then have all users also pattern the gun so they can understand where it hits FOR THEM, and everyone PRACTICE with it.

Or

Instead buy a 3" magnum chambered 20-ga. gun with modified choke or, better, equipped with screw-in choke tubes. It can use either 3" magnum or standard 2-3/4 inch shells. Buy 100 rounds each of 20-ga. slugs which ARE effective and 3 inch magnum No. 2 buckshot for defense, and 250 rounds each of 3 inch magnum No.6 and 2-3/4" 1-oz. 7-1/2s for small game and birds. If you will be teaching other family members to shoot and throw clay birds for practice, buy an additional 500 rounds of 7/8 oz. No. 8 "dove and quail loads." My two cents.

A brief how-to-do-it on loading all-brass .410s might be helpful. I've successfully done this, fire-forming .303 British or 9.3x74R brass and most recently using Magtech .410 all-brass shells from Midway. Load data, wads and assembly/crimping technique for all-brass shells are different from using modern plastic shells and wads.

In break-open shotguns, all-brass cases can be fireformed from .303 British brass, which is cheap and plentiful. Charge the case with ten grains of fast-burning pistol or shotshell powder. The powder type isn't important, almost anything you have around will work. Push a cotton ball down onto the powder, fill the case up to the shoulder with Cream of Wheat, then press a Gulf wax plug into the case mouth. Fire-form the case pointing the muzzle straight up. The resulting case is 2.25" in length. Cases should fire-form perfectly without splits on the first pop if they are mouth annealed first. Cases which have been reloaded as rifle rounds several times absolutely must be annealed first!

A quickie on how to anneal rifle brass which works for this application: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVeRDAsrCfM
With Magtech brass use, 15.4 grains of #2400 powder, thrown from the RCBS Little Dandy powder measure, using the rotor #19. Place a Buffalo Arms .44 vegetable fiber 1/16” card over the powder, then two Buffalo Arms .44-45 wool felt cushion wads . LIGHTLY oil the top cushion wad only, applying TWO DROPS of SAE 30 weight motor oil with an eye dropper, squishing the wad between the fingers a few times to work the oil in, then wrapping the wad in a square of toilet paper, squeezing it again between the thumb and forefinger to wick out and absorb the excess oil.

A .45 Schofield case holds half an ounce of lead shot to solder up a dip measure. Fill the case to within 1/8” of the case mouth with No. 7-1/2 oir No.8 shot, insert another 1/16” card and glue in place with Elmers. You can get a little more shot in using the old fashioned card and fiber wad column, but my cylinder-bore gun patterns much better using the Federal No. 410SC (1/2 oz. Skeet) shotcup over the card, pouring the shot into that and closing the shell by crimping (or gluing with Elmer's) a .36 cal. card inside the top of the shotcup, as shown below. If using plastic shotcups in the Magtech brass is is absolutely necessary to place a card over-powder wad first, otherwise powder will leak past the shot cup, which is too small to seal the interior of the case wall, causing “bloopers.”

You can make a more finished-looking crimp by inserting a blank Lyman 450 sizer top punch into the seater die plug of a Lee .308 or .243 Winchester seating die, adjusting the seating stem to position the top card below the die shoulder. Use a .44 cal. card to fit the all-brass shell, or .36 cal. to fit inside the Federal shotcup when using that wad. You want to hold the overshot card slightly below the case mouth, as you bump the case mouth against the die shoulder to form a nicely rounded crimp.

When loading buckshot, insert the card firmly over the powder, as you did before. If using a Federal No.410SC plastic shotcup as a container for 00 buckshot the felt fiber cushion wads are not needed. A reminder again, plastic shotcups MUST NOT be used in all-brass cases without an over-powder card, because omitting the card results in powder leaking past the wad, causing “bloopers.” After firmly seating the Federal No.410SC plastic wad column, drop four 00 buck into the shotcup, then add one cast .390” round ball cast of SOFT lead on top of the stack. Adjust the seater so the top ball is crimped positively in the end of the shell. Alternately you can load only FOUR pellets of 000 buck in the shot cup, or the same number of .390" cast round balls in the brass shell with fiber wad column and no plastic shot cup.

Four .39" cast round balls total 350 grains, about 0.8 of an ounce. Each pellet at 25 yards has 150 ft.-lbs. of energy, approximating a .380 ACP pocket pistol at the same distance. If the .390 balls fall through your gun's choke and they pattern well, the increase in energy is dramatic! I use the same 15.4 grain charge of #2400 in my gun, it is, admittedly a "hot" load. Your mileage may vary, so I suggest reducing the charge to 12 grains initially, using Little Dandy Rotor #15 and working back up cautiously.
The 1951 Ideal Handbook provides data with #2400 powder for .410 shells with conventional wad columns. It suggests thickness of the filler wad(s) should be not less than 1/2 bore diameter and not more than bore diameter. Minimum filler wad thickness in the 410 bore is 0.205 inches.

A .444 Marlin sizer die with Lee No.5 shell holder can be used to resize brass cases if necessary. Prime cases with large pistol primers. The RCBS Little Dandy Rotors #19 or #20 measure appropriate charges of Alliant #2400. Thumb over powder card into case mouth, and slide firmly onto the powder using a dowel. Similarly seat the filler wad(s), or plastic shotcup, if used. Add shot and top card or buckshot. Glue top card or crimp, if a suitable die is available. That’s all there is to it.
 
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#4 ·
Cool post. I recently inherited a 410 NE Firearms single shot. It's a neat little light gun. It had a box of 3" 7.5 shot with it. I went out and got a box of 3" 4s and a box of 6s. I was surprised that 410 ammo cost more than 12 ga. I have two 12 gauge pumps. I figured why have the gun without ammo.Then I ordered 3 15 round boxes of Rem Ultimate HD home defense loads, they have five 000 buckshot pellets @1135 fps. I'll bet at close home defense range that will stop anyone.
I plan on patterning this gun with the different loads like I do my turkey gun. It probably won't bruise my shoulder like those 3" mag 12 ga turkey loads with 2 oz of shot. They kick like an elephant gun. Lol.
 
#12 ·
You may find it much more useful after taking a pipe cutter to the barrel and shortening it to a handy length, which I did. The pipe cutter puts a wee bit of constriction in the muzzle like a skeet choke. Use a .50 cal. inside and outside deburring tool to remove the sharp edges and reinstall the front sight.

Understand that a cylinder bore .410 is a 25-yard gun, but MUCH easier to hit with than the full choke you used to have...

I use my .410 around the place alot more than my 12-ga. and it brings home lots of small game for the pot.
 
#7 ·
.12 gauge rules. Smaller gauges do NOT necessarily kick less, especially considering their typically lighter weight. Just less payload.
Regulate the shotgun to it's proper place. Birds, small game. Big game, slugs? Under 100 yds. With practice. Lots. More like 50.. Heavy buck? Under 25yds. With practice. Lots.
Rifles? Practice. Lots. And then. A LOT more. But, it's worth it.

All are good and can do what is needed, within limits. Know your weapons, and all the best to you.

A
 
#9 ·
That was a long post - but lots of info.

I personally love the .410 in spite of its flaws. Shorter range and expensive ammo are entirely true. It's still super fun to shoot and useful in situations where you need a shotgun that acts a little like a rifle - like for pest control at close range without sending a full charge of 12 gauge pellets out through your tomato plants. But the .410 does have light recoil, the guns are fun to shoot, and if it's not your only shotgun and it don't cost too much, I say go for it!
 
#10 ·
.410

Nice post. I appreciate the effort.
I too like the .410. For years we always have one in camp during big game hunts. I have never messed with the handgun versions. We have used the little rossi break open and a nef break open. After someone fills their tag on elk or deer they carry a 410 and pop grouse rabbits and squirels. Meat in the pot. IFIRC the rossi is 3" modified while the nef is 3" fixed. The rossi is featherweight and easier to carry and the nef is easier to shoot well. They have different POA and pattern spreads. While the ammo is spendy we do not shoot enough of it to mess with reloading. I figure the guns were cheap( rossi combo 410/22 was like $160 and I got the nef used but pristine for $100. BTW the rossi with the 22 barrel mounted and some quiet ammo is fun for the kids in camp) A few boxes per year and your good to go. I have been tempted by the new savage combo but I really don't need it and it cost over $400. If the 22 were accurate and the barrels well regulated to poi I suppose it woild be nic. Anybody have one that could chime in?
 
#17 ·
Making the Most of the “Little Gun”

Nice post. I appreciate the effort.

I too like the .410. For years we always have one in camp during big game hunts. I have never messed with the handgun versions. We have used the little rossi break open and a nef break open. After someone fills their tag on elk or deer they carry a 410 and pop grouse rabbits and squirels. Meat in the pot. IFIRC the rossi is 3" modified while the nef is 3" fixed. The rossi is featherweight and easier to carry and the nef is easier to shoot well. They have different POA and pattern spreads. While the ammo is spendy we do not shoot enough of it to mess with reloading. I figure the guns were cheap( rossi combo 410/22 was like $160 and I got the nef used but pristine for $100. BTW the rossi with the 22 barrel mounted and some quiet ammo is fun for the kids in camp) A few boxes per year and your good to go. I have been tempted by the new savage combo but I really don't need it and it cost over $400. If the 22 were accurate and the barrels well regulated to poi I suppose it woild be nic. Anybody have one that could chime in?


i really like 410. i got a savage m42 o/u 22wmr/410 a few years ago at the new good price of $350 to use as a nontactical camp and trunk piece for northeast & canadian trips. it is a pricey compromise, ok for me no more than 50'. in retrospect the value proposition just isnt there for the savage. i suggest just sticking with a used h&r 410 plus a rifled insert (or rossi combo), or better yet, a used 22lr or wmr rifle if you want that capability too and have someone to carry it.


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#11 ·
Little guns. I have a .50 smoothbore fowling piece that gives about the same performance as the .410. Built this one about nine years back, and use it around the garden for targets of opportunity, like rabbits, opossum (who seem to like watermelon pretty well) and similar critters. Nothing wrong with the .410 for most farm chores....

I load for my SIL's double .410 with .45-70 brass. Works pretty well, and the brass lasts a long time.
 
#13 ·
I have an old JC Higgins (Stevens) bolt action 410. It has taken a few squirrels, an occasional rabbit, quite a few clay pigeons. It is a fun gun. I have considered shortening the barrel to make it more user friendly, but the bolt is difficult to operate so I am not sure it is worth the effort. Maybe one day.....
 
#14 ·
Thank you for you thoughts and comments. I'm an old lady now (something i hate to admit) and small. I spent my younger years hunting with a 20g. A 12 was a bit too much for me and we never had one with a short enough stock for me. Aside from the handguns in the house that would be used for home defense it occurred to me that I wanted a shotgun.

I had certain criteria the men of the house resisted. Envisioning the scenarios of a home invasion led me to want not just short enough to handle easily by myself or children, but light enough to fire from the hip if in a desperate hurry. The men all howled "stopping power" and "Penetration levels" and all that manly junk. But I couldn't see myself or my 13 yr old grand daughter sneaking down a dark hall with a 20g double barreled man-sized shotgun that weighs nearly what we do, even in an emergency.

As you said, just shoot twice. Or 4 times if the adrenaline is high! For home defense I'm not going to be aiming for 50 yards. The longest straight shot inside my house is 27 FEET. I've shot coyotes in the yard at 50 yds, but used a rifle. The same can go for zombies. For inside, I finally ignored the men and bought my own 410 with a youth stock. It's the very first firearm I bought myself! (Rather silly proud of myself here.) All the other weapons in the house were actually purchased by a man, even the little Smith .38 I carry every day.
 
#18 ·
I have a short hard rifle case that my Springfield M6 fits in nicely along with my Ruger MK I that I swapped out the top end with a Paclite barrel that's 10" long, aluminum with a steel barrel inside.

For my .410, I have buckshot, slugs, #7 shot, flachette rounds, and flare rounds along with Remington Target standard velocity ammo and cb 22 shorts. I modified mine M6 by running to pieces of copper pipe along the barrel, one piece on each side that will hold an extra 10 rounds or so of .410. Wrapped them on there with paracord and it works as a nice foreend grip. Also have a Scout Ramp and scope on it. The Ruger Mk I also has a scout scope on it for better shot placement. A well placed .22 round will drop a bad guy where he stands and if it doesn't, the M6 makes no more noise than the hammer falling when it shoots so it's almost impossible to figure out where the shot came from.

The M6 also has a sling on it made of paracord for carrying on my shoulder. That case is definitely one I'll grab when heading out the door along with a Keltec P11 for when things get hairy.

I believe in being as quiet as can be even when taking game to put in the pot. No thoughts on killing a deer or anything of size, don't want to have to put the meat in a cooler and drag that around or waste the meat. Squirrels and bunny's make a great stew when prepared right.

If it looks like I need more firepower because of bad guys coming in, I'll grab my M1 Carbine which I have at least 30 10 round magazines in an ammo can ready to go along with 2 30 round clips taped together that ride in the action.

Even have an AR7 that rides tucked away under the bench in the back of my truck.

Don't get me wrong, I also have 3 1911's (1 is a para ordnance, 1 is a custom accurized job done by my father, Couple .357 magnums, and a couple more Keltecs in smaller calibers.

Just my grab and go is what's in that rifle case. The M6 will fold in half and fit ni a backpack and the Ruger Mk I will also have a place in my pack. Few boxes of standard target ammo and I think I'll be doing well.

I don't plan on shooting it out with a bunch of bad guys, I plan on total stealth to rule the day.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Heck of a detailed write up OP.

My wife is 4'10/90pounds and (att) 60+yo. One of my 12Gs was right out and even the youth 20G semi-auto I picked out for her was too heavy. So I bought her a Mossy youth .410. Changed the barrel and mag tube from 22"/4+1 to 18.5/5+1.

We keep it loaded with Remington HD 000 buck. It's sitting 4 feet away as I type this. Butt is just long enough to hold a rifle sleeve with 9 extra rounds. Everyone I let shoot it is impressed with what the 000buck does to plywood and how light/compact and easy recoiling it is.
 
#25 ·
Years ago I wanted to test a shotgun project I'd had in mind that would fit well with a "Family use" home defense shotgun. I was able to do so in late 2010-Early 2011. The basis was a Mossberg 500 E model # 50104 and an 18.5 inch "Security" barrel ordered directly from the factory. and thanks to the .410 revolvers that had hit the market a few years earlier I took stock of what was on offer. The Buckshot loads that made the most sense were from Federal's Personal Defense line. The load I zeroed in on out of the three federal offerings happened to be the company's 3-inch 9-pellet load of #4 Buckshot. The load worked equally well through the 24-inch fixed full choke barrel and the 18.5 inch fixed cylinder choke barrel. It wears the 18.5 inch barrel for general purpose work as a home defender, garden pest removal tool, and snake tamer. Though for my uses and for ammo conservation I trimmed down a small diameter wooden dowel and plugged off the magazine to make it a single shot.
 
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