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Old 08-31-2019, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Don H View Post
When I backpack I figure 1.5 pounds of food per day. And that's lightweight food, not heavy MREs.

+1

1 MRE can weigh between 17 to 26 ounces depending on the individual menu chosen.

If one field strips an MRE, one can further reduce weight...depending on items dumped.

The much older " dark brown bag" MREs had quite a bit of freeze dryed food inside making them lighter in weight, but requires more water vs the current ones.

Also nice to have TP in the field....lol.

Op plans to scavenge. I wonder how he plans to carry all that " loot " back to base? Another looted duffle bag perhaps? Cache for a rainy day?

11B
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by wallacengineering View Post

Thats just the thing, and most SHTF preppers have agreed - theres absolutely no need for a long range weapon in SHTF outside of hunting. Sniping has been accepted as a "mythical fantasy", that it would never really happen in a realistic senario. Even in SHTF Hunting, shots outside about 250 meters is probably never going to happen, and the PWS can take care of 250 meters no issue at all with a bit of practice. So while it would be nice to have a rediculous amount of range and the ability to pierce just about any cover or armor an assailant might be using, it's just not really realistic or practical to try and setup a massive .308 rifle as my primary. If I can own both someday, then great. I have no idea how I would slug around a whole nother rifle and a whole nother stash of ammunition with me in SHTF though. Im pushing it as is if I want to try and bring a Crossbow with somehow (not patrol, more of roaming around and trying to find a safe place.to set up camp).
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Herd Sniper View Post
I am expecting firefights to be engaged at less than 200 meters, most often below 100 meters.

Combat situations vary based off of what all in the line of supplies and personnel is available to the opposing force. You won't be hit the same way, same distance or with the same tactics every time. I was with one platoon that got hit like 28 nights in a row. There was a 7 night pause and then we got hit for another 15 nights in a row. There was another pause of like 10 nights and then we got hit for another 7 nights in a row. Keep in mind that we were not in an urban combat situation but it involved part of a small village, a beach area to the South China Sea and a bunch of rice paddy land.

Out of all those nights of shooting, none of the combat was closer than 200 yards. In fact, most of the attacks were from 300 yards away or more. Shooting patterns in that series of fights broke down to "hit them when you can see them." So for about 50 nights of combat, none of the fighting got real close at all.

Where urban warfare becomes close range is when organized military forces engage one another. In MOUT warfare, in order to gain control of a section of a city two military forces will engage in close quarter battle or cqb. In such fighting conditions, much of the fighting involves hand-to-hand combat where entrenching tools, knives, hands, feet and teeth are used to hurt, maim and kill opposing troops on a personal level.

In the civilian survival situations, you probably won't see any organized urban combat like the military forces do. What you might see is something akin to gang turf warfare which is much more disjointed. With the civilian version, you're probably going to see a whole lot of people doing precision shooting or sniping. Think about it. If you have a small group of people, say 6 to 12 people, how will you keep other people away from your supplies and command center are? The simplest way is to deter them via long range shots from precision shooters. Make people afraid to approach your position.

The best way to defeat long range shooters is to (A.) outmaneuver them or (B.) outshoot them with better shots. The key here is that you adapt your tactics to be better than their tactics by thinking ahead of them. That's what survival thinking is all about: thinking ahead of trouble. Pistols are nice but a pistol is what you use to fight your way to your rifle which you should of had in the first place.
Couldn't have said it better! The reality is for those who think that in a WROL complete collapse SHTF / TEOTWAWKI scenario that we wont have to shoot out past 200 yards is really just about the silliest thing I've ever heard!
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Old 09-02-2019, 03:12 PM
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Alright guys, thats about enough.

If you guys aren't smart enough to realize what the word "METAPHOR" stands for then you guys are demonstrating exactly why this country is #27 in education while being #1 in confidence.

But regardless, no the crossbow idea has nothing to do with the show, its having an effective weapon that can use re-usable ammunition, and you can also carve less effective but usable ammunition from tree branches, effectively giving you an unlimited ammunition weapon in the event that your firearms run out of ammunition. Thats the basic jist of it anyway.

I don't know even the slightest thing about crossbows, so Im gonna need to do a lot or research as well as talk to a lot of bow hunters to determine where I should be looking.
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Old 09-02-2019, 03:15 PM
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You have much to learn grasshoppa
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Old 09-02-2019, 03:29 PM
wallacengineering wallacengineering is offline
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Originally Posted by Daniel8 View Post
Couldn't have said it better! The reality is for those who think that in a WROL complete collapse SHTF / TEOTWAWKI scenario that we wont have to shoot out past 200 yards is really just about the silliest thing I've ever heard!
Thing is, what exactly makes you think that long range combat will be necessary in SHTF/WROL? Im not going to shoot a survivor 500 yards away from my camp because he/she happened to wander in the vague direction of my camp while trying to survive, hiking through the woods.

My goal is to survive, not to murder innocent people who are also trying to survive. Yea, if they ask me for supplies, Im gonna have to turn them away, but I will wish them luck. If our community has spare room, they posess a skill we could use, and we have plenty of provisions, a may even consider accepting them into the community, provided we have 24/7 overwatch security in shift rotations and said new community person is not allowed near weapons until trust is earned over time.

Why is everyone acting like I have to kill every single thing that I see instead of just trying to survive and encouraging others to survive? History has shown us that yes, alot of people are not to be trusted, but in times of absolute peril, in times of extreme desperation, we have the tendency to unite under a single goal - survival.

Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, but the point is Im not going to go around murdering random people who obviously pose no threat whatsoever to my armed-to-the-freaking-teeth community.

We are not Nazis. The Nazis are long gone and they need to stay that way forever. No matter the argument that Hitler was a brilliant man, and he was; he was still one of the worst human beings to ever live, and there is no arguing that point. So no matter how bad things get, I will not be able to bring myself to act like him.
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Old 09-02-2019, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fragout View Post
1 MRE can weigh between 17 to 26 ounces depending on the individual menu chosen.

If one field strips an MRE, one can further reduce weight...depending on items dumped.

The much older " dark brown bag" MREs had quite a bit of freeze dryed food inside making them lighter in weight, but requires more water vs the current ones.

Also nice to have TP in the field....lol.

Op plans to scavenge. I wonder how he plans to carry all that " loot " back to base? Another looted duffle bag perhaps? Cache for a rainy day?

11B
Oh sorry, should have been more clear in my word choice.

I am going to be stocking up supplies like any other prepper. However, I am also going to be prepared for the day that the supplies run out. You know what they say: "You never know what's going to happen, so always be prepared"
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Old 09-02-2019, 04:54 PM
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OP, don’t forget a sling with a cupped leather pouch. Don’t go with pleather, as it chaffes. YMMV tho.

All kinds of uses.

As headband.

As an eye patch, like a pirate, arrr...

As a tourniquet.

As a necklace, handy for dangling lions teeth & bear paws from.

As a bolo tie, you know for a nice evening out, see above teeth and paws to make nice aiguillettes.

The mind simply boggles at the available alternate backup uses.

Oh, and as a slingshot.
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Old 09-02-2019, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Camelfilter View Post
OP, don’t forget a sling with a cupped leather pouch. Don’t go with pleather, as it chaffes. YMMV tho.

All kinds of uses.

As headband.

As an eye patch, like a pirate, arrr...

As a tourniquet.

As a necklace, handy for dangling lions teeth & bear paws from.

As a bolo tie, you know for a nice evening out, see above teeth and paws to make nice aiguillettes.

The mind simply boggles at the available alternate backup uses.

Oh, and as a slingshot.
Lol wtf man ha! But yea you do actually make a good point. Slingshots are small and light, and all u need to do is find some rocks on the ground for ammo, definitely a solid choice right there.
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Old 09-03-2019, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by wallacengineering View Post
Oh sorry, should have been more clear in my word choice.

I am going to be stocking up supplies like any other prepper. However, I am also going to be prepared for the day that the supplies run out. You know what they say: "You never know what's going to happen, so always be prepared"
Now that is a bit better than some of your other ideas
If I understand this right, this scavenger idea is only a last resort type of endeavor ?

If Thats the case....... one could focus towards " supplies" now.

1. You ( or at least a few in your group) could learn how to grow your own food as well as raise your own livestock NOW and well before teotwawki.

2. Utilize power sources that don't rely on the grid, or fossil fuels.

3. Food preservation

.....and several more I might mention later, as it is getting late.

Note: Rule of 3s apply to the above list of examples.

This would certainly curtail the need to go loot and pillage a tad.

With that said, and a like minded group / community as you put it, you can now focus on security.

A few examples in addition to what I have already mentioned......

1. Forget stats. They only apply to folks who have never been involved in a gun fight.
Unlike computers, chaos thru violence of action is the big money. In short, that AK pistol of yours = a PDW. Not a patrol rifle. Own out to at least 500 yards or stay inside the wire . Your patrol members should all be riflemen because that is what they have to become the most effective with.

2. Complacency is the number one enemy for those executing a prolonged static defense. Don't become static....so to speak.

3. Defense in depth.

4. Mobile defense.

5. Obstacle plan

6. Security patrols

7. Above all......Early warning. ( LP/OP)

8. QRF

As to your idea that you will never need to engage anything over 200 yards......

Totally incorrect. If you don't WANT to be in a position where you might have to based off some moral dilemma. .....stay inside the damm wire.

A few reasons:

1. Direct fire support for others in your group. ( Assist others in your group while they are attempting to break contact with some hostile element for example)

2. Overwatch. ( Static, semi static, and bounding)

3. Mid to long range interdiction ( An established trigger line at 383 yards for example)

4. Recon by fire ( In support of... and/ or conjunction with ...a friendly OP or Patrol......and....an established TRP for example)

5. Diversion/ feint

6. Counter attack ( Both ends of that coin)

7. Counter sniper

8. Anti vic.

As for a security patrol load out....... The KISS version below......


1. Dump all that unnecessary crap in the rear.....( Swords, crossbows, nintendos, etc...etc...
2. Focus on what you and your patrol needs to accomplish. ( Hint......shoot/ move/ communicate)
3. After number 2 is complete, add the necessary equipment/ supplies for sustainment. ( medical/ water/ food)
4. Once 3 is complete, special equipment ( if any) .
5. PCCs and PCIs. ( Always and non stop)

Note: Food should be minimal unless this patrol is also supporting one or more OPs

THere is a bit more to it, but fairly easy to research...... ( as to Why u need your own METT-TC to begin with....And leave emotion/ morals out of this analysis. )

A few off the top of me brain.

Photo below just for a better understanding of what I mentioned above......

Boomstick at top = A PDW
Boomstick at bottom = A PATROL RIFLE


11B
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Old 09-03-2019, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by wallacengineering View Post
Thing is, what exactly makes you think that long range combat will be necessary in SHTF/WROL? Im not going to shoot a survivor 500 yards away from my camp because he/she happened to wander in the vague direction of my camp while trying to survive, hiking through the woods.

My goal is to survive, not to murder innocent people who are also trying to survive. Yea, if they ask me for supplies, Im gonna have to turn them away, but I will wish them luck. If our community has spare room, they posess a skill we could use, and we have plenty of provisions, a may even consider accepting them into the community, provided we have 24/7 overwatch security in shift rotations and said new community person is not allowed near weapons until trust is earned over time.

Why is everyone acting like I have to kill every single thing that I see instead of just trying to survive and encouraging others to survive? History has shown us that yes, alot of people are not to be trusted, but in times of absolute peril, in times of extreme desperation, we have the tendency to unite under a single goal - survival.

Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, but the point is Im not going to go around murdering random people who obviously pose no threat whatsoever to my armed-to-the-freaking-teeth community.

We are not Nazis. The Nazis are long gone and they need to stay that way forever. No matter the argument that Hitler was a brilliant man, and he was; he was still one of the worst human beings to ever live, and there is no arguing that point. So no matter how bad things get, I will not be able to bring myself to act like him.
Cmon now. No need to think like a DAC. Use that computer nerd logic mentioned by you b4.

Not that this has anything remotely close to the topic at hand, but Hitler was a dumb ass. In addition, he is dead, so move on.

11B
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Old 09-03-2019, 05:43 AM
wallacengineering wallacengineering is offline
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Now that is a bit better than some of your other ideas[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif[/IMG]
If I understand this right, this scavenger idea is only a last resort type of endeavor ?
Yes, scavenging would of course be the last/final option after running out of supplies, that is what I had meant.

I do have some experience growing my own food, albeit on a very small scale. As for power, there are a few ways to go about and Im not really sure what is best.

Generators are easy to power if you have fuel, and fairly easy to service. They also put out alot of power. But run out of fuel and ur screwed. And the noise? Not great if ur trying to lay low. Then we have solar panels that are perfectly quiet but pick up much less power and do not help at night for obvious reasons.

I do have defense and patrol strategies in mind, just need a community to join.

Im never been the best at long shooting and so that is another reason Im shying away from long guns. I would be much better suited as a patrol for a community rather than a lookout. But if I can own both rifles and pass the SAPR on, then thats great.
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Old 09-03-2019, 05:49 AM
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Cmon now. No need to think like a DAC. Use that computer nerd logic mentioned by you b4.

Not that this has anything remotely close to the topic at hand, but Hitler was a dumb ass. In addition, he is dead, so move on.
A horrible person? Yes. A Dumb Ass? Nothing could be further from the truth. He convinced the majority of an entire country to follow in his ideals and footsteps, despite the sheer insanity. He also invented a lightning chain-gun that actually functioned, but was quickly dismissed for insane danger to the user and reliability issues. He was a genius who used his powers for evil.
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Old 09-03-2019, 07:08 AM
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How did this thread become about Hitler?
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Old 09-03-2019, 09:44 AM
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How did this thread become about Hitler?
I used him as an example of how not to act and then arguments popped up?
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Old 09-03-2019, 10:23 AM
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Wallace fyi - living in Salt Lake you have access to something most of us don't have...

Multiple 1000yd shooting ranges open to the general public 1 to 2 hours away!!!!
https://www.facebook.com/threemilecreekrange/

https://www.facebook.com/pg/northspr...=page_internal

https://www.carbon.utah.gov/nssr

With training available:
https://www.longrangeshootersofutah.com/classes/

Here's the thing about prepping and long range.
You Can Not Predict what distance someone will be shooting you at. Trash can that 250 yard fantasy. If you can learn to hit a target at 500yds to 1000yds you can hit something at 250yds.


The other thing you have that many us don't is miles of off road 4wd areas. Get yourself a 4wd vehicle and learn to use it.

I too have a 2017 VW in the garage. It gets great gas mileage (40+) but I also have 2 4wd vehicles and love getting off road every chance I can. Even if it's just in my back field.
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Old 09-05-2019, 10:16 AM
Herd Sniper Herd Sniper is offline
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The reason that most military forces have their troops use rifles is pretty easy to understand: rifles allow a soldier to engage targets at close range and far range distances. Rifles allow the same shooter to have much more accuracy than he would have using a pistol, carbine or shotgun. In other words, while there is no such thing as a perfect weapon, a rifle comes close to filling the need as the overall best option for a survival weapon, security weapon or personal defense weapon.

When it comes to caliber or millimeters, a good medium weight bullet is what most soldiers prefer to use for their shooting needs. The problem is that military forces are funded by politicians who tend to abuse their powers of financial control over what the military uses or has to carry into combat. It was because of incompetent politicians that the U.S. military forces have been loaded down with the .223/5.56 cartridges that the soldiers have wanted replaced since Day One. In Viet Nam soldiers often "played with" or tested the enemy AK-47 rifles to see what the differences were in effectiveness in the rifles and ammo. That's why I know that the 7.62 X 39 round is a decent combat round for certain types of fighting like shooting through a wooden pole, mud bricks and so on for urban combat.

In urban combat you have your 4 directions plus up and down. So you are actually fighting on a 6 axis movement factor, not just 4 planes. If somebody is below you with an AK in 7.62 X 39, don't be shocked to learn that they might try to take you out by shooting through the floor below your feet. It could happen and the odds of the X 39 bullet penetrating are a whole lot better than those of a .223/5.56 round. What works for the X 39 round is that it has more weight to help it punch through wood and other material than the 55 grains of the .223 bullets. So the 7.62 X 39 ammo is somewhat better, to some degree, than other ammo for urban shooting situations.

In urban type combat all sorts of things get developed and used to offset "the human advantage." In WW2, the German Army developed lumps of explosives that looked like coal and they would leave them behind in piles of coal when they evacuated a town. American soldiers would go to use a coal or wood burning stove in a house, throw in a lump of the Nazi coal and suddenly the stove would become shrapnel hurting or killing anybody in the room.

In some areas, troops developed periscopes to be used so that they could peek over a bank or berm without exposing their heads and getting them shot off. Once again, enemy rifles proved to be precision instruments used inside a built-up area that proved their worth over pistols.

Setting yourself up with the idea that you won't be shooting beyond any certain distance or below any certain distance is not a good idea. You need to maintain flexibility with all your shooting needs and be ready to engage from 0 to 1,000 yards as needed. You need to think ahead of possible trouble and anticipate situations based on common sense and using historic events as a guide. A decent movie that explains WW2 urban combat is "Enemy at the Gates." If you get a chance watch that movie, think it through and research combat in Stalingrad in depth. You would be amazed at how bad the fighting was there.
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Old 09-05-2019, 04:02 PM
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Default My load out is similar but better

my load out is similar but better than the one I was issued.
High cut mitch helmet with strobe
Chase Tactical LOPC
8 mags
Pvs14 night vision
SOLGW M4 post dealer sample full auto
Changed my Pistol to a USP 45 tactical with Rebel Suppressor
3 mags for my USP 45
for Comms I went with a Bowman 4855 PRR
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Old 09-05-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wallacengineering View Post
Im never been the best at long shooting and so that is another reason Im shying away from long guns. I would be much better suited as a patrol for a community rather than a lookout. But if I can own both rifles and pass the SAPR on, then thats great.
If you are still speaking hypothetically and haven't made any purchases yet, give a lot of thought to what you can accomplish with your current skill level, keeping in mind that starting with a "baseline" rifle that would serve your purposes sufficiently right now still allows for a fair amount of upgrades to further expand your capabilities later if the opportunity arises. Likewise, take into account what you can do to improve on your skills.

I personally am not going to impress anyone with my marksmanship, especially as the distance increases, so my hardware investments and training have been focused on defending against threats in my current environment, since that's my highest priority. I don't have many opportunities to shoot past 200 yards, and Lasik isn't in my budget, so I've focused (no pun intended) on an optic that works well within my vision constraints, a trigger that allows for more consistent follow-up shots, and ammo that should offer the most effective results for my needs.
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Old 09-05-2019, 07:52 PM
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Scavenging.... Well, I'm going to have to go with Wally on this one. While it is not a good idea as it is dangerous, and you have to leave your home/retreat to scavenge thus you are week at home, and also instead of engaging in defensive action of your homestead you will then become an offensive engager which is morally wrong. (WROL TEOTWAWKI collapse scenario of coarse) But reality is if we are all talking about the same thing here as something like a grid down complete collapse scenario, even if you spend over 200k on preps you won't have everything you need at some point and will want to make a trip to whats left of town in search of seeds or medical or someone to hopefully trade with. But you might end up scavenging. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's healthy for us to have that as a plan. But in a WROL scenario in the USA for any extneded period of time when there is no sight of rebuild in law and order the new world will not be so much about right and wrong. There will be no rules. Or at least new "rules" to live by. Wally you will have to shoot by your gut to defend yourself. It won't necessarily be something you want to do every time but well you'll have to learn the new rules to the fallen world I guess. Those who learn quickly will live longer. Try to set yourself up to not scavenge. Or have something of value to trade. Or at least a skill that you might be able to ply for trade later on. But my point is that for any of us to make a rule that we wont "scavenge" (and we all know what that means) is simply blind. You will do what you have to do. Hopefully you prepare enough and live in the right location that you are very rural and have plenty of deer meat and everything else.
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