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Old 05-21-2013, 10:00 AM
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Evolution.

This is the time of the western martial arts fighter.

Taking what works from various Asian martial arts and distilling it in the crucible that is the MMA and UFC arenas.

To those who are still extolling the virtues of the traditional martial arts I ask one question...

In the MMA and UFC arenas where are your Kung-Fu masters? Where are your seventh Dan Black Belt instructors?
Where are your 20 years plus students and practitioners of (insert a traditional Asian martial art here) that, apparently, are so highly skilled as to be considered walking weapons of destruction?
Where are the deadly ninja disciples?

Sure, a few MMA fighters are black belts or highly accredited members of one or another Asian martial art…but many of today’s top MMA fighters haven’t even been doing MMA for that long a period.
Certainly not for decades.
Certainly not for most of their life.

Where in the UFC do we see the famous reverse karate strike?
Where do we see those supposedly deadly Kung-Fu animals’ forms, the monkey, the tiger, the snake, the crane…and, for all I know, the angry meerkat or enraged gerbil.

We don’t, because in their heart of hearts the practitioners of those traditional martial arts know that in the UFC arena those techniques just aren’t going to be of any use.

If this were not true we’d have pint sized masters of exotic Asian martial arts downing UFC fighters left and right.

A western MMA fighter shouldn’t even be able to lay a hand on an Aikido black belt. That worthy should be throwing the MMA fighter around the ring like a storm tossed feather.

The venerable Kung-Fu master should be tying the MMA fighter up with his ‘sticky hands’ techniques and knocking the MMA fighter to the canvas with those slick evasive movements and those lightning fast chain punches.

Revered karate black belt instructors with decades of training should be reverse punching and back-fisting the MMA fighter into oblivion in the opening seconds of the first round.

But that’s not what is happening in modern MMA/UFC at all.

Western MMA warriors are at the pinnacle of the martial arts mountain.

Time and again we’ve seen fighters using nothing but western boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ and wrestling techniques dominate all other fighting styles.

And these aren’t guys and gals who’ve been studying those disciplines for twenty years, nor even ten years…we’re seeing young men and women fighting and winning in the MMA and UFC arenas who have only been doing MMA for relatively brief periods of time. In some cases only a year or two.

So tell me...apart from the fitness and spiritual aspects of the traditional Asian martial arts…how and in what way are they superior to modern MMA?

To those who say that MMA is a sport form of hand to hand combat and would not be as good as, let’s say Kung-Fu, on the street in a real life situation…I say that’s just not logical…in the MMA/UFC arenas you’re up against another fighter who knows you’re going to be punching and kicking and grappling with him…and that other fighter is equally as skilled as yourself.

If an MMA fighter can kick a fellow MMA fighter’s ass in a controlled arena with rules, imagine what he’s going to do in an uncontrolled street fight situation.

There’s no ref to say he can’t kick you in the balls. There’s no tap-out to tell him to stop because he’s a micro-movement away from breaking your arm. There’s no end of round alert to make him back up and go stand in his corner while you get your breath back.

A MMA fighter in the street is going to be twice as dangerous as in the arena. He’s used to exchanging actual full contact blows with an opponent. He can take it and he can dish it out.
He’s used to evading, he used to counter-punching. He’s used to the actual full contact violence that is modern MMA.

He hasn’t spent ten years studying a martial art where you never actually hit your opponent.

He’s been perfecting his art by spending hundreds of hours hitting and kicking heavy bags, floor to ceiling bags, speed balls, focus mitts and sparring with fighters of equal or more ability than himself.

The modern MMA fighter also spends hundreds of hours lifting weights and performing a whole host of other muscle strength enhancing and cardio enhancing exercises.

He’s an all-round super-fit martial arts athlete.

He’s the future of martial arts and its continuing evolution.

Cheers: Jaq




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Old 05-21-2013, 11:07 AM
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Uh...yeah....thanks for sharing.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:21 AM
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cung le and goodridge are the only 2 that come to mind. though goodridge was just a athletic freak that transcended his discipline. if you are taking martial arts for a practical reason, you should be taking some form of jiu-jitsu with some boxing/kickboxing. that is the basis for modern mma fighters for a reason as stated above.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:21 AM
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In my limited experience. The people I know who are deeply involved and capable in the martial arts would never join in those activities.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:25 AM
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In my limited experience. The people I know who are deeply involved and capable in the martial arts would never join in those activities.
That is very foolish of them.

MA training is theory. Actual fighting is experimentation of those theories to prove or disprove their validity.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:37 AM
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Uh...yeah....thanks for sharing.
My pleasure.

I was commissioned to write an article for a local fight club, thought I'd offer it here for you guys to peruse for free.
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:19 PM
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In my limited experience. The people I know who are deeply involved and capable in the martial arts would never join in those activities, for fear of being shown a fraud and incompetent.
You forgot the rest.
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:09 PM
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All sport fighting is "fake". In a real fight a martial artist would usually break his opponents finger or something. The person would not be able to fight again for several years, if ever. This would effectively mean no money.

MMA has rules. These rules all benefit the grappler, making it essentially a wrestling contest with punches and kicks involved. Some of the rules:

1. No small joint manipulation (most holds can be gotten out of fairly easily by grabbing the fingter and twisting or pulling, done to the extreme it can be broken. these bones are easily broken. Thus most holds that win the UFC can easily be gotten out of by a competent martial artist in a "street fight".

2. No eye gouging, no groin shots, no punches to the back of the head etc. You are basically taking away all of the most lethal stand up moves and then asking why stand up fighting doesn't work. Let's make the rear necked choke illegal, the arm bar illegal etc. and then ask why grappling doesn't work.

So what MMA amounts to mostly is Greeco Roman wrestling combine with Jiu-Jitsu. Both of these are basically the same thing, but one is Western and one is Asian. The main "evolution" in MMA is that they break up the fighters and make them stand up again if it gets too boring. Greko wrestling was so technical that the person with little knowledge of it would get bored watching two people roll around for an hour. So by adding a bit of stand up to it, and having a coach who tries to keep the fight exiting makes it more commercially successful.
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaqhama View Post
Evolution.

This is the time of the western martial arts fighter.

Taking what works from various Asian martial arts and distilling it in the crucible that is the MMA and UFC arenas.

To those who are still extolling the virtues of the traditional martial arts I ask one question.......

If an MMA fighter can kick a fellow MMA fighter’s ass in a controlled arena with rules, imagine what he’s going to do in an uncontrolled street fight situation.
...

The modern MMA fighter also spends hundreds of hours lifting weights and performing a whole host of other muscle strength enhancing and cardio enhancing exercises.

He’s an all-round super-fit martial arts athlete.

He’s the future of martial arts and its continuing evolution.

Cheers: Jaq

.
I will step out there and give you one reason why MMA can not be the "pinnacle" of all martial arts. Weapons.

MMA has no weapons training. There is no defense against a bat or crowbar, Knifework or even a walking stick. There is no training on the effective uses of such weapons. In most realistic of fights and attacks there will be a weapon.

And even something such as a short stick in the hands of an eskrimador will apply leverage and techniques that an MMA fighter have never trained for or encountered. Remember Martial Arts is not always empty hand to empty hand.


Your view on this?
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 133948 View Post

MMA has rules. These rules all benefit the grappler, making it essentially a wrestling contest with punches and kicks involved. Some of the rules:

1. No small joint manipulation (most holds can be gotten out of fairly easily by grabbing the fingter and twisting or pulling, done to the extreme it can be broken. these bones are easily broken. Thus most holds that win the UFC can easily be gotten out of by a competent martial artist in a "street fight".
100% agree.

Funny story, I told a good MMA friend of mine that I could get out of a rear naked choke. He said I could not. I let him lock one in on me and grabbed his pinky and ring finger from behind my head and twisted it back and out. He screamed like a woman and I got out. Of course he said that was an "illegal move".
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:32 PM
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I will step out there and give you one reason why MMA can not be the "pinnacle" of all martial arts. Weapons.

MMA has no weapons training. There is no defense against a bat or crowbar, Knifework or even a walking stick. There is no training on the effective uses of such weapons. In most realistic of fights and attacks there will be a weapon.

And even something such as a short stick in the hands of an eskrimador will apply leverage and techniques that an MMA fighter have never trained for or encountered. Remember Martial Arts is not always empty hand to empty hand.


Your view on this?
Defence against a knife or a crowbar or a bat?

Get out of the way or get in closer.
It's instinctive.
A trained MMA guy is used to moving in and out, circling, sidestepping.

The MMA version of full contact weapons fighting is being practiced by the Dog Brothers.
It's fast and brutal and doesn't look anything like the nice moves you see in the Arnis videos.
The UFC once considered Dog Brothers stick fighting as an event, but deemed it too violent and injury prone for the general masses.

I take your point about weapons, but the article is clearly about empty hand MMA vs empty hand traditional styles.
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 133948 View Post
All sport fighting is "fake". In a real fight a martial artist would usually break his opponents finger or something. The person would not be able to fight again for several years, if ever. This would effectively mean no money.

MMA has rules. These rules all benefit the grappler, making it essentially a wrestling contest with punches and kicks involved. Some of the rules:

1. No small joint manipulation (most holds can be gotten out of fairly easily by grabbing the fingter and twisting or pulling, done to the extreme it can be broken. these bones are easily broken. Thus most holds that win the UFC can easily be gotten out of by a competent martial artist in a "street fight".

2. No eye gouging, no groin shots, no punches to the back of the head etc. You are basically taking away all of the most lethal stand up moves and then asking why stand up fighting doesn't work. Let's make the rear necked choke illegal, the arm bar illegal etc. and then ask why grappling doesn't work.

So what MMA amounts to mostly is Greeco Roman wrestling combine with Jiu-Jitsu. Both of these are basically the same thing, but one is Western and one is Asian. The main "evolution" in MMA is that they break up the fighters and make them stand up again if it gets too boring. Greko wrestling was so technical that the person with little knowledge of it would get bored watching two people roll around for an hour. So by adding a bit of stand up to it, and having a coach who tries to keep the fight exiting makes it more commercially successful.
In the hundreds of videos available on You Tube that feature people being attacked or successfully defending themselves against a real attacker...not a one of them is using small joint manipulation.

It's punching. elbowing, kicking and grappling.

In all the years I've been arresting violent people I've never once used any joint manipulation smaller than a wrist lock or an elbow lock.

The small joint manipulation stuff doesn't generally work. If it did every military policeman, LEO and security guy would be using it.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:01 PM
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Defence against a knife or a crowbar or a bat?

Get out of the way or get in closer.
It's instinctive.
A trained MMA guy is used to moving in and out, circling, sidestepping.

The MMA version of full contact weapons fighting is being practiced by the Dog Brothers.
It's fast and brutal and doesn't look anything like the nice moves you see in the Arnis videos.
The UFC once considered Dog Brothers stick fighting as an event, but deemed it too violent and injury prone for the general masses.

I take your point about weapons, but the article is clearly about empty hand MMA vs empty hand traditional styles.
Well.. I thought it was about the evolution of Martial Arts. Asian martial arts is actually mostly weapons arts and yes these ARE traditional forms and arts. Because that is how it evolved. Defense with items that were available. Empty Hand to hand is what you did when you had no weapons or are first learning the basics/ discipline needed to handle the weapon.

Remember... monks had weapons, soldiers had weapons, farmers had weapons, brigands had weapons. Traditional Asian Martial arts is 80% weapons (contrary to popular beliefs). So to me, and hopefully others reading this, it would seem that MMA is not an evolution of Martial arts but a weakening of Martial Arts. You say you are only talking about "empty hand vs empty hand"... well isn't that stacking the deck to your argument.

My point is that empty hand to empty hand is not a "evolution" but a DE-Evolution of martial arts.

And getting an answer like "get in closer or move away"... wow. Really? LOL sorry for the sarcasm there but what else is there?!?! And how is a MMA practitioner going to know to use which for what weapon? What strikes to try for when your opponent has a knife/stick or what to avoid?

You bring up the Dog Brothers. And that is a nice event. I have watched them and there is a lot of value in what they are doing. It is not pretty. Also, Escrima is not pretty. Real fights last a matter of seconds. It is just the practice muscle memory conditioning that they are practicing that look pretty. I have seen true escrima fights and they last under 10 seconds. Hand, knee, head, win.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:17 PM
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It seems that you're really saying that your MMA marketing is better than the McDojo marketing. I agree.

Neither one are comparable to martial arts learned from actual life and death struggles. You've recognized evolved marketing, not evolved art.
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Old 05-22-2013, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 133948 View Post
All sport fighting is "fake". In a real fight a martial artist would usually break his opponents finger or something. The person would not be able to fight again for several years, if ever. This would effectively mean no money.

MMA has rules. These rules all benefit the grappler, making it essentially a wrestling contest with punches and kicks involved. Some of the rules:

1. No small joint manipulation (most holds can be gotten out of fairly easily by grabbing the fingter and twisting or pulling, done to the extreme it can be broken. these bones are easily broken. Thus most holds that win the UFC can easily be gotten out of by a competent martial artist in a "street fight".

2. No eye gouging, no groin shots, no punches to the back of the head etc. You are basically taking away all of the most lethal stand up moves and then asking why stand up fighting doesn't work. Let's make the rear necked choke illegal, the arm bar illegal etc. and then ask why grappling doesn't work.

So what MMA amounts to mostly is Greeco Roman wrestling combine with Jiu-Jitsu. Both of these are basically the same thing, but one is Western and one is Asian. The main "evolution" in MMA is that they break up the fighters and make them stand up again if it gets too boring. Greko wrestling was so technical that the person with little knowledge of it would get bored watching two people roll around for an hour. So by adding a bit of stand up to it, and having a coach who tries to keep the fight exiting makes it more commercially successful.
You are joking right?
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Old 05-22-2013, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jaqhama View Post
Evolution.

This is the time of the western martial arts fighter.

Taking what works from various Asian martial arts and distilling it in the crucible that is the MMA and UFC arenas.

To those who are still extolling the virtues of the traditional martial arts I ask one question...

In the MMA and UFC arenas where are your Kung-Fu masters? Where are your seventh Dan Black Belt instructors?
Where are your 20 years plus students and practitioners of (insert a traditional Asian martial art here) that, apparently, are so highly skilled as to be considered walking weapons of destruction?
Where are the deadly ninja disciples?

Sure, a few MMA fighters are black belts or highly accredited members of one or another Asian martial art…but many of today’s top MMA fighters haven’t even been doing MMA for that long a period.
Certainly not for decades.
Certainly not for most of their life.

Where in the UFC do we see the famous reverse karate strike?
Where do we see those supposedly deadly Kung-Fu animals’ forms, the monkey, the tiger, the snake, the crane…and, for all I know, the angry meerkat or enraged gerbil.

We don’t, because in their heart of hearts the practitioners of those traditional martial arts know that in the UFC arena those techniques just aren’t going to be of any use.

If this were not true we’d have pint sized masters of exotic Asian martial arts downing UFC fighters left and right.

A western MMA fighter shouldn’t even be able to lay a hand on an Aikido black belt. That worthy should be throwing the MMA fighter around the ring like a storm tossed feather.

The venerable Kung-Fu master should be tying the MMA fighter up with his ‘sticky hands’ techniques and knocking the MMA fighter to the canvas with those slick evasive movements and those lightning fast chain punches.

Revered karate black belt instructors with decades of training should be reverse punching and back-fisting the MMA fighter into oblivion in the opening seconds of the first round.

But that’s not what is happening in modern MMA/UFC at all.

Western MMA warriors are at the pinnacle of the martial arts mountain.

Time and again we’ve seen fighters using nothing but western boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ and wrestling techniques dominate all other fighting styles.

And these aren’t guys and gals who’ve been studying those disciplines for twenty years, nor even ten years…we’re seeing young men and women fighting and winning in the MMA and UFC arenas who have only been doing MMA for relatively brief periods of time. In some cases only a year or two.

So tell me...apart from the fitness and spiritual aspects of the traditional Asian martial arts…how and in what way are they superior to modern MMA?

To those who say that MMA is a sport form of hand to hand combat and would not be as good as, let’s say Kung-Fu, on the street in a real life situation…I say that’s just not logical…in the MMA/UFC arenas you’re up against another fighter who knows you’re going to be punching and kicking and grappling with him…and that other fighter is equally as skilled as yourself.

If an MMA fighter can kick a fellow MMA fighter’s ass in a controlled arena with rules, imagine what he’s going to do in an uncontrolled street fight situation.

There’s no ref to say he can’t kick you in the balls. There’s no tap-out to tell him to stop because he’s a micro-movement away from breaking your arm. There’s no end of round alert to make him back up and go stand in his corner while you get your breath back.

A MMA fighter in the street is going to be twice as dangerous as in the arena. He’s used to exchanging actual full contact blows with an opponent. He can take it and he can dish it out.
He’s used to evading, he used to counter-punching. He’s used to the actual full contact violence that is modern MMA.

He hasn’t spent ten years studying a martial art where you never actually hit your opponent.

He’s been perfecting his art by spending hundreds of hours hitting and kicking heavy bags, floor to ceiling bags, speed balls, focus mitts and sparring with fighters of equal or more ability than himself.

The modern MMA fighter also spends hundreds of hours lifting weights and performing a whole host of other muscle strength enhancing and cardio enhancing exercises.

He’s an all-round super-fit martial arts athlete.

He’s the future of martial arts and its continuing evolution.

Cheers: Jaq




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Old 05-22-2013, 03:19 AM
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100% agree.

Funny story, I told a good MMA friend of mine that I could get out of a rear naked choke. He said I could not. I let him lock one in on me and grabbed his pinky and ring finger from behind my head and twisted it back and out. He screamed like a woman and I got out. Of course he said that was an "illegal move".
Not really going to work with ground and pound though.

And you can do rear nakeds with clenched fists forcing you to use other escapes. Which of course you know being part of a compleate defence package right.
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Old 05-22-2013, 03:24 AM
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It seems that you're really saying that your MMA marketing is better than the McDojo marketing. I agree.

Neither one are comparable to martial arts learned from actual life and death struggles. You've recognized evolved marketing, not evolved art.
Exept that is not true plenty of sports fighters fight people outside the ring.

Soldiers train MMA in afganistan. The battelfield argument is nonsence.
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Old 05-22-2013, 03:46 AM
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It seems that you're really saying that your MMA marketing is better than the McDojo marketing. I agree.

Neither one are comparable to martial arts learned from actual life and death struggles. You've recognized evolved marketing, not evolved art.
If you think MMA and UFC is evolved marketing you should get in the ring against an MMA fighter who's being sparring for, let's say...12 months, and see how you go for a couple of rounds.
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Old 05-22-2013, 05:04 AM
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Well.. I thought it was about the evolution of Martial Arts. Asian martial arts is actually mostly weapons arts and yes these ARE traditional forms and arts. Because that is how it evolved. Defense with items that were available. Empty Hand to hand is what you did when you had no weapons or are first learning the basics/ discipline needed to handle the weapon.

Remember... monks had weapons, soldiers had weapons, farmers had weapons, brigands had weapons. Traditional Asian Martial arts is 80% weapons (contrary to popular beliefs). So to me, and hopefully others reading this, it would seem that MMA is not an evolution of Martial arts but a weakening of Martial Arts. You say you are only talking about "empty hand vs empty hand"... well isn't that stacking the deck to your argument.

My point is that empty hand to empty hand is not a "evolution" but a DE-Evolution of martial arts.

And getting an answer like "get in closer or move away"... wow. Really? LOL sorry for the sarcasm there but what else is there?!?! And how is a MMA practitioner going to know to use which for what weapon? What strikes to try for when your opponent has a knife/stick or what to avoid?

You bring up the Dog Brothers. And that is a nice event. I have watched them and there is a lot of value in what they are doing. It is not pretty. Also, Escrima is not pretty. Real fights last a matter of seconds. It is just the practice muscle memory conditioning that they are practicing that look pretty. I have seen true escrima fights and they last under 10 seconds. Hand, knee, head, win.
Tradition based martial arts in the west today focus mainly on empty hand.
Sure, plenty do train with weapons, but how many have used those weapons in an actual self-defence situation?

So again, I stand by the fact that the majority of traditional arts taught in the west today are 80% empty hand and 20% weapons.

Not counting Arnis of course, but again, you don't see many people fighting with sticks on the street do you.

Learning weapons is great, I love mucking about with weapons, but in reality I don't expect to have access to anything except a pocket knife and, on rare occasions a walking stick.
And I'm certainly not going to be stabbing people unless I'm vastly outnumbered and my life depends on it.
I have no compunction about whacking an attacker with my walking stick, but it's extremely unlikely I'll be in a situation where that need might occur anyway.

How will the MMA fighter know what to do when attacked by a guy with a knife or a stick...he knows to get out of the way and try to avoid getting stabbed or struck by the stick.
The same as the rest of us.
If he's extremely confident in his ability I dare say he'll attempt to stop his attacker...and hopefully the months of training and sparring will come to the fore and he'll be able to overcome his assailant.
Confidence, reflexes, ability, strength and timing is all more important than the ability to actually hit someone. Hitting someone is the easiest part, anyone can do it. The question is have they practiced enough to be able to connect with their chosen target area, with enough force to do the damage they want.
All you have to do to hit someone is strike them with an open or closed fist.
And anyone can do that.

But this is all the old 'my style is better than yours' stuff. The 'what if this happens' scenarios.

MMA and UFC isn't about scenarios, it's about actually putting theory into practice with full contact fighting.

No one does full contact knife fighting with sharp blades, so no one really knows how they will go on the street in a real life knife fight, not that many people ever get into real life knife fights anyway.

Only the Dog Brothers really train for realism, I don't know of any other organization in the west that fight with sticks and no armor, except a helmet.
I find these suggestions just an attempt to distract from the reality that MMA is a superior form of hand to hand combat as opposed to the majority of the traditional martial arts.

Again I back this up with the observation that we don't have any Asian hand to hand combat grandmasters wiping the floor with MMA fighters in UFC style events.

And as for all those who keep harping on about how MMA/UFC is a sport based system and that it's not practical for the street, maybe you need to go back and read the original article...why would an MMA fighter in a street fight situation bother abiding by the rules inside the UFC arena?

You think an MMA fighter couldn't gouge your eye out if he wanted to?
Couldn't shin kick you in the balls and launch you into orbit?
Couldn't choke you unconscious , or even, if he wished, just break your neck?
Couldn't stomp kick the side of your knee and make a noodle out of it.

MMA fighters train for speed, power, strength, timing and precision targeting every time they work out...just looking at the physique of the majority of MMA fighters who have worked out for more a year and you can see right away how much fitter than the average person they are.

I have to say that I don't see a lot of super fit, muscular bodied guys down at the local dojo, as opposed to down at the local MMA/Full contact fight gym.

Hell, hardly any dojos have any weight lifting equipment or cardio machines, whereas a great many professional MMA gyms have all that and more.

I'm with you on the lack of weapons aspect of MMA...but here in the west we're not using martial arts weapons to defend ourselves with, and if we're honest about it, unless you're facing off against a drunk in a bar, most attacks will be relatively unexpected and you probably wouldn't have time to get a weapon in your hand anyway.
And if you're attacked by a guy with no weapon except his fists and you stab him...well good luck when your day in court arrives is all I can say.

A female might get away with stabbing an unarmed attacker...us guys, not so much.
Provided your walking stick doesn't resemble nothing but a weapon you might be okay...but you'd better at least look like you need to be using a stick, otherwise it can be considered that you were carrying it simply as weapon to begin with.

Anyway..back to empty hand fighting...I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me that the traditional empty hand methods are more effective than MMA empty hand methods..and produce some evidence, preferably on video, that they are right and I am wrong.

MMA is an offshoot of traditional martial arts, but now evolved into a pure full contact fighting form that is proving itself superior to the arts that it originated from.

Cheers: Jaq.
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