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Old 06-24-2013, 07:15 PM
weaponkid weaponkid is offline
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Originally Posted by Jaqhama View Post
Tradition based martial arts in the west today focus mainly on empty hand.
Sure, plenty do train with weapons, but how many have used those weapons in an actual self-defence situation?

So again, I stand by the fact that the majority of traditional arts taught in the west today are 80% empty hand and 20% weapons.

Not counting Arnis of course, but again, you don't see many people fighting with sticks on the street do you.

Learning weapons is great, I love mucking about with weapons, but in reality I don't expect to have access to anything except a pocket knife and, on rare occasions a walking stick.
And I'm certainly not going to be stabbing people unless I'm vastly outnumbered and my life depends on it.
I have no compunction about whacking an attacker with my walking stick, but it's extremely unlikely I'll be in a situation where that need might occur anyway.

How will the MMA fighter know what to do when attacked by a guy with a knife or a stick...he knows to get out of the way and try to avoid getting stabbed or struck by the stick.
The same as the rest of us.
If he's extremely confident in his ability I dare say he'll attempt to stop his attacker...and hopefully the months of training and sparring will come to the fore and he'll be able to overcome his assailant.
Confidence, reflexes, ability, strength and timing is all more important than the ability to actually hit someone. Hitting someone is the easiest part, anyone can do it. The question is have they practiced enough to be able to connect with their chosen target area, with enough force to do the damage they want.
All you have to do to hit someone is strike them with an open or closed fist.
And anyone can do that.

But this is all the old 'my style is better than yours' stuff. The 'what if this happens' scenarios.

MMA and UFC isn't about scenarios, it's about actually putting theory into practice with full contact fighting.

No one does full contact knife fighting with sharp blades, so no one really knows how they will go on the street in a real life knife fight, not that many people ever get into real life knife fights anyway.

Only the Dog Brothers really train for realism, I don't know of any other organization in the west that fight with sticks and no armor, except a helmet.
I find these suggestions just an attempt to distract from the reality that MMA is a superior form of hand to hand combat as opposed to the majority of the traditional martial arts.

Again I back this up with the observation that we don't have any Asian hand to hand combat grandmasters wiping the floor with MMA fighters in UFC style events.

And as for all those who keep harping on about how MMA/UFC is a sport based system and that it's not practical for the street, maybe you need to go back and read the original article...why would an MMA fighter in a street fight situation bother abiding by the rules inside the UFC arena?

You think an MMA fighter couldn't gouge your eye out if he wanted to?
Couldn't shin kick you in the balls and launch you into orbit?
Couldn't choke you unconscious , or even, if he wished, just break your neck?
Couldn't stomp kick the side of your knee and make a noodle out of it.

MMA fighters train for speed, power, strength, timing and precision targeting every time they work out...just looking at the physique of the majority of MMA fighters who have worked out for more a year and you can see right away how much fitter than the average person they are.

I have to say that I don't see a lot of super fit, muscular bodied guys down at the local dojo, as opposed to down at the local MMA/Full contact fight gym.

Hell, hardly any dojos have any weight lifting equipment or cardio machines, whereas a great many professional MMA gyms have all that and more.

I'm with you on the lack of weapons aspect of MMA...but here in the west we're not using martial arts weapons to defend ourselves with, and if we're honest about it, unless you're facing off against a drunk in a bar, most attacks will be relatively unexpected and you probably wouldn't have time to get a weapon in your hand anyway.
And if you're attacked by a guy with no weapon except his fists and you stab him...well good luck when your day in court arrives is all I can say.

A female might get away with stabbing an unarmed attacker...us guys, not so much.
Provided your walking stick doesn't resemble nothing but a weapon you might be okay...but you'd better at least look like you need to be using a stick, otherwise it can be considered that you were carrying it simply as weapon to begin with.

Anyway..back to empty hand fighting...I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me that the traditional empty hand methods are more effective than MMA empty hand methods..and produce some evidence, preferably on video, that they are right and I am wrong.

MMA is an offshoot of traditional martial arts, but now evolved into a pure full contact fighting form that is proving itself superior to the arts that it originated from.

Cheers: Jaq.
here's the reason why MMA is better in this situation
is because it's Mixed Martial Arts they can picked out the better moves
from the original martial arts
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Old 07-16-2013, 07:41 PM
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You do realize MMA is sport, and sports help us develop many bad habits. Self defense is a very different animal and the first thing to die is sportsmanship. Great way to get into shape, but then again so is boxing. These forms are just the beginning though.

I happen to like the Dog Brothers even if they make things more complicated than they need to be in my opinion.
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Old 07-17-2013, 03:55 AM
dontbuypotteryfromme dontbuypotteryfromme is offline
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Originally Posted by New Pioneer James View Post
You do realize MMA is sport, and sports help us develop many bad habits. Self defense is a very different animal and the first thing to die is sportsmanship. Great way to get into shape, but then again so is boxing. These forms are just the beginning though.

I happen to like the Dog Brothers even if they make things more complicated than they need to be in my opinion.
So what are the bad habits developed?
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Old 07-17-2013, 04:24 AM
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So what are the bad habits developed?
Not saying I agree with the argument, but one of the arguments is that valid, irl techniques such as biting, eye gouging, fish hooking, nut strikes, etc are illegal in mma, so they're not readily able to be drawn upon in a real life situation. Personally I disagree with this. More brutal techniques don't just disappear like washing juice stains from laundry.

Another agreement is that MMA wrongly emphasizes grappling and that in a street situation a person will needlessly shoot and grapple and could be ganged. This argument assumes that people are stupid, and I can't say as I agree with it. Also, MMA has reached an interesting balance point, were strikers have reached an equipollence, and do very fine in keeping a fight at stand up.

One thing, however, that has occurred with and over emphasis on MMA is hard coding certain drills. Twice now I've had colleagues attempt a shoot on the street; both hurt their knees, one rather grievously. However, this is an issue with any intensive, repetitive training for any sport, and not exclusive to MMA.

Most criticism of MMA is unfounded, desperate and silly, as if MMA is the new bully in school that needs to be taken down a peg. It's as if people only equate MMA with BJJ.

Dudes; MMA=mixed martial arts. Not trying to be prig here, but this can't be cast aside. Most people engaged in MMA have a passion and respect for most styles, but are intelligent enough to perceive that the foolish 'clucking chicken strike' from some wire fu movie is bullsheet and irrelevant.

But hey, it's an uncertain world when the old regimes lose their validity. Boxing and chop socky movies have lost their hold on the masses for something real, something better. Joe Rogan said it best when he went toe to toe on the news with a bitter, old, clueless boxing columnist. He said this.
"You're afraid, because boxing is being swallowed."
And he's exactly right. The Western warrior ethos doesn't need the hocus pocus of 'ancient Chinese master', or the faux toughness and ultra hype bs of boxing.
MMA/UFC has done for combat what the internet has done for wider communication; challenged the false bs satus quo.
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:04 AM
Insneaker Insneaker is offline
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About street situations, knives and grappling.

Lets start with the grappling. When there is only 1 opponent, grappling is handy if you know what you are doing. Basically you must control the hands! Hands are the thingies what make bad for you!
IF There is knife around. 1 vs 1 and grappling might be still good. You have to know what you are doing and how to control those arms effectively! If you lose the hand what are holding the knife, he is going to stab you multiple times before you even notice that. That is bad situation.

Even if you are wrestler, you aren't superiour at the street because wrestler practise without the weapons and with rules! You might be able to adabt your skills, but it is way more easy thing if you are practising for the street, not for rings!

If there is multiple opponents... Erhm... Stay mobile all the time! If you start to play grappling even when there is no knives around, you are still dead man. Do i even need to explain this? I believe this is pretty clear thing.

You should stay mobile all the time! I'm not good in english, but i try to explain this.
You keep distance, try to block your opponents with each others and then you suddenly attack nearest opponent. You kick/hit him couple times and then take some distance and repeat whole thing. It is very fast tempo what you must keep up! If you start to wrestling, others will get you and game is pretty much over. There just isn't time for grappling/wrestling. Some simple joint locks might go, but it is that 1-3 seconds and you must move away from your target to attack another one. So usually there isn't so much time for locks at all. And if you do locks, there is big risk that also your opponent start grappling and it is game over once again if you do not get out of his hold soon enough.
You must attack, change your opponent and attack again! YOu must keep moving and not get cornered and so on... It is very hard situation even when there is only 2-5 opponents.
Luckily not everyone are Kung Fu masters... I have been in multiple opponent situations and with pure aggression, you might get out of there! Ofcourse if your opponents are trained martial arts, you are lucky if you get out when there is only 2 opponents who know how to play together.

Heck, even when you cannot block your opponents with each others, or if you get cornered or middle of the circle, you still should attack one opponent at time, hit couple times and after that change your opponent who you are attacking. You must be even more mobile and aggressive and not give your opponents time to think or attack at all!
You just must stay mobile and be threat to all directions! That mean avoiding attacks, and attacking yourself.

Do this really sound like a MMA sport in the rings? Those tactics are from ancient combat styles what was developed to the battlefield.

MMA is for ring fights, not for street. IF we talk how you pick best moves from different styles, you don't really understand martial arts at all. I don't know what is English term for this, but basically it is "copy, improvise and break."
First you copy what you see. Then you start to improvised things... After that, you just break everything down and really understand them. In the end you just don't have fancy moves or combinations in your hands... You are just blank.
If you are just picking some moves, you are just copying what you see, nothing more. We could say you are empty shell without the inner. You are just limiting yourself if your fight is combination of ready made movements or what combinations of movements your style contain.

When we talk about knife fights, i have been there too. Luckily only 1 versus 1. And i didn't take my knife out of my pockets any time because i knew if that happens, someone surely will get stabbed and maybe even killed.
It was better to fight with empty hands because that was less provocating.
And yeah i'm little bit a nutcase. When i fight i do not think anything else than that situation what i have in my hands. And when i fight, my head is empty. I do not think what might happen to me, or how i should react or what moves i should use, i'm just empty inside and react how my body feels it should.
That is also straight from the battlefield styles btw! Something what is hard to learn... Luckily for me, it is my natural way of react.

MMA is good for ring sports, Taekwondo is good for kicking sports and Boxing are good for boxing sports. All of them might help you in real world situations but that isn't the focus/point of practise them.
Their strong point is absolutely sparring! They sparring alot and learn to improvise and react. They know the feeling when you are in the ring. Ofcourse ring is safe place to be... You should feel the terror when you might die and nobody is there to help you. That is something!

I can admit it straight away that some of older battlefield styles rarely sparring at all and that is really weak point! Because you don't learn combat without being in combat... Or as near as possible. After that, you can start to play inner warrior thingy and talk about philosophy.
(IMHO) Ring styles are like stripped version of battlefield styles and with rules, but their strong point is that they know the feeling of being in the ring. They practise to react in sudden situations. They are more "near the battle" than many older styles because of that.

But lets come out to the martial arts and go to the military side for a moment? How many have been heard "you fight as you train" -phrase?
Yeah... you do not practise with using rules, or without hitting below the waist and that crap. When you practise to the war, you want to practise as near the real deal as possible!
That is weak point of the Ring styles... You do not practise for combat and that is limiting you. Rules are limiting you. Many things go straight to the back bone when you repeat them many times. When you do them thousands times, you don't have to think them anymore. They just come straight from the back bone how you react. And when you practise with rules, you fight with same rules. It is good in ring, but bad habbit in street.

Many older styles traing for (melee) combat, that is surely advantage, but without the sparring, it is limiting them. Some styles ofcourse are sparring and my honest option is, they should do it alot more! Because that is where their focus should be. Learning the combat. Not learning the style and what is exactly location of your pinky finger in certain moves... (i have been there!)
Many old styles have lost their effectiviness because there isn't combat anymore around and they do not practise too often in combat like enviroment. That is their disadvantage for surely.

I cannot say what you really should practise... Do you want to focus on competitions? Do you want to focus ancient battlefield styles or do you want to focus in modern self defence or battlefield styles? There are many reasons for practising and some styles suit better for some others.
IF your focus are in the streets, i would say go to the Krav Maga or Defendo. I do not try to tell you how you should know all the ancient weapons and how to use them, that is purely waste of time! But i surely don't tell you to go to the ring sports either! Because it is much nicer when there is others around of you who's focus are in the same area than you do! You want to survive away from the situation instead of hitting many points or winning the match. It is different mental set and how you should practise for that.

MMA might be evolution of the ring sports, but it isn't evolution of self defence, martial arts and modern combat styles. Sorry because long post, but that is all what i want to say in this topic.
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:56 PM
BshMstr BshMstr is offline
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interesting discussion...

i think MMA is prolly the best style to train in, due to it including various ranges (grappling, striking, ground).

are there inherent weaknesses? sure... i hate how the UFC allows a three point stance count as a "grounded opponent".... training that would get a guy killed on the street, IMO. but one also needs to temper their training with their lifestyle.... if i'm fighting in the UFC, then i need to be as good at that style as possible in order to provide for my family. would it be perfect on the street? no, but the average guy on the street is nowhere near as fast and strong as the average professional fighter, let alone comparable on skill. besides, like Oscar DeLeHoya said.... "i'm a professional fighter-i don't fight for free." also, guys like Forrest Griffen (former LHW UFC champ) and Frank Mir (former HW UFC champ) both carry CCW.... and they are both big, tough guys. so they're not discounting the inherent weaknesses in MMA...

with that being said, there are a couple books that come to mind IRT this... Outliers (Malcolm Gladwell) and The Book of Essential Submission (by Mark Hatmaker). Hatmaker's book isn't solely about submissions, but about the highest percentage ways to win/finish a MMA fight out of several thousand he has analyzed. and that's what's driving MMA now.... while head kicks might cause a KO, slipping off a miss almost always results in a loss... the fact is, MMA is slowly transitioning into "point fighting," due to competitors striving to get the Win.

as long as you keep that in the back of your mind when training, and still train to integrate weapons, then i think MMA is great for self defense. but i think we all kind of agree on that anyway, based off what i've read here...
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Old 07-17-2013, 04:31 PM
Insneaker Insneaker is offline
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interesting discussion...

i think MMA is prolly the best style to train in, due to it including various ranges (grappling, striking, ground).
Many styles include various ranges, grappling, striking, ground... Some include even modern weapons! So once again, i wouldn't say "This is better than that!"... It really depend what for you are training.

If you want to train for ring fight, ring style is probably the best. If you want to learn only joint locks and wrestling, There is another style for that! If you want to practise old japanese sword fighting... Yup, another style.
If we want to learn fight without rules, go to learn fighting without the rules.

Even when we talk about "combat sports" (That them are, a sports.) There is difference styles... Style mainly for kicking, style for hitting, style for hitting AND kicking, style for wrestling, style for joint locks.. and combinations of above things.
Some of them are competing in same tournaments. Others don't.

I'm myself mainly a Kung Fu guy. I have been learning ground fighting, wrestling, joint locks, Hitting, kicking, all kind of weapons (Including knife and batton) and so on. And we practised sprarring atleast once a week and those were very good training sessions, because it weren't "kata." It was putting it all together, learning to attack and defence and react. Learning to fight against multiple opponents and so on...
(IMHO once a week was better than what peoples in many styles sparring, but it still could be much more!)

This was very good style indeed because it wasn't only training like "if you hit like this, i can defend like that." Instead it was totally random sparring and really fighting together.
When we practised to fight against multiple opponents, or group tactics... That is something what you don't find in ring styles! Because in ring it is 1 vs 1. If you want to practise other things, you surely need to go somewhere else to learn them!

In chinese arts i have been finding also skills for using of poisons, using of hidden weapons, using of bows, jumping from high, walking silently in total darkness and so on... There is just so much more than 1 versus 1 what to learn... Ofcourse not all are something what you might need in self defence situation, but in the other hands... I just love those other parts too.
First my priority was absolutely in self defence, but now days i just can study other parts too.

Quote:
but the average guy on the street is nowhere near as fast and strong as the average professional fighter, let alone comparable on skill.
This is very true. I have been in multiple opponent situations many times like i told. Even when they were gang members, they were very poor fighters.
I only knew basics of my style and i afraid alot when it all beging, but still i saw how poor fighters these were. That was real life saver... It was when there was multiple opponents and it was when someone tried to stab me and it was when there were only one opponent against me.
They just didn't know a thing about how to fight... Still they were gang and was fighting with another gangs using pipes, baseball bats, knives and so on... But they still were bad fighters. Below the average martial artists. But they had something. It was will, courage and brave to fight! (Something what you may lack even how long you have been practising martial arts! Actually i believe that even many skilled martial artist lack this courage (And still, it is one of the most important thing above all!))

I have been heard little this and that about that gang after i "get out of the situation"... During time when i was fighting against them, there was only couple real bad guys who did many crimes (And also violentic crimes) but there weren't killers yet. Still they hunted me and tried to kill me many times.
After i get out of the situation there were multiple killers also in that gang. So they finaly did it... Even couple my old huntes did it. They were real bad guys... It dont take too much skills to stab someone. And that is the dangerous part of street fighting!
Even if you are "better" fighter, you might run out of luck. Or they might outnumbered you. And that it is.
Even when average guys don't be so good fighters, we should always remember that luck... If you get out of the situation, you were also lucky! Nothing is 100% sure in streets. (So be humble!)

Now i went little bit offtopic, but street fight is so much difference than ring fight. In ring, somebody always stop the fight when you lose. There is rules. Whole gameplay is toward the competition. Toward something fun, something what you enjoy and like! Gameplay is not to survive when some maniac is trying to rape and stab you. Anybody don't ring the bell after couple first minutes, but fighting is going on and on (Usually fights end pretty fast, but some times, they are longer episodes... Or when someone follow you, but not yet are attacking you and so on. Those situations might take some pretty long time!)

Quote:
"i'm a professional fighter-i don't fight for free."
This is exactly good comment! In MMA those are professional fighters. They fight for money and famous. Or just because of fun when they are amateurs and there isn't famous and money around!
They don't fight because they have to fight. Because someone is hunting them, or trying to rob them or stab them... (Self defence aspect.)
And they do not fight because of king and country (military aspect.)

I don't want to bash ring styles or MMA, but there is huge difference why people are practising them! There is huge difference why people are teaching these styles.
You do not talk in MMA practises what to do if someone put knife next to yout throat, and you do not practise crushing anyones adams apples, or digging their eyes out and so on. You are practising pretty safe competition style what aims toward to be good in competition with certain rules. Like i told earlier, stripped version.


Quote:
as long as you keep that in the back of your mind when training, and still train to integrate weapons, then i think MMA is great for self defense. but i think we all kind of agree on that anyway, based off what i've read here...
I don't know if i agree that.
First we should ask ourselfs what MMA is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts

Mixed Martial Arts maybe was the origin...
But right now you can find MMA schools where you can go to learn ring sport under the name "MMA." So it is right now own style! Style what is focused completely on competitions.
I find it hard to believe that someone go ring sport school and take knife with you and training with it. Atleast here they would shoo you away because they are practising fighting in competitions. Ofcourse it is your business what to do in your own time, but do it somewhere else (And maybe even without a teachers who can teach you...)

I don't say that MMA is BS. Yeah it is fighting, but with rules and in ring. It just is pretty limited stuff. You cannot break anyones arms, you cannot make joint locks in certain joints and so on... You cannot suddenly take knife out and stab your opponent... And you do know that your opponent don't suddenly take his knife out and try to stab you!
In MMA you only practise fighting against one opponent in certain conditions. In real life situations, you need to be watching what is around you, who is attacking, are there more attackers, where attackers hands are because they might go into the pockets and come out with weapons (including firearms!) You might be with your wife (or husband) there might be childrends with you and so on... There might be slippery surface, moving objects, alot of all kind of movements and noise around of you and other dangers too.
So what i'm trying to say is basically that there isn't only mental differences between ring styles and self defence styles. There is also other differences how and what to practise.

Finaly i would say couple things.

MMA is great for self defence, Many other styles are also great for self defence and IMHO couple styles are even greater because they are just for self defence.
I wouldn't dare to say MMA is best.

And...
I totally don't want to bash ring styles. I just hate these "MMA is the best" discussions! Luckily many MMA guys also realise what they are practising. Many of them are really good in what they are doing, much more better than i'm. But in the other hands i just fight dirty. It give me advantage if i ever have to fight against a MMA guy.

And...
MMA might be evolution of the ring sports, but it isn't evolution of self defence, martial arts and modern combat styles. Sorry because another long post.
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:03 PM
BshMstr BshMstr is offline
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Originally Posted by Insneaker View Post
Many styles include various ranges, grappling, striking, ground... Some include even modern weapons! So once again, i wouldn't say "This is better than that!"... It really depend what for you are training.

If you want to train for ring fight, ring style is probably the best. If you want to learn only joint locks and wrestling, There is another style for that! If you want to practise old japanese sword fighting... Yup, another style.
If we want to learn fight without rules, go to learn fighting without the rules.

Even when we talk about "combat sports" (That them are, a sports.) There is difference styles... Style mainly for kicking, style for hitting, style for hitting AND kicking, style for wrestling, style for joint locks.. and combinations of above things.
Some of them are competing in same tournaments. Others don't.

I'm myself mainly a Kung Fu guy. I have been learning ground fighting, wrestling, joint locks, Hitting, kicking, all kind of weapons (Including knife and batton) and so on. And we practised sprarring atleast once a week and those were very good training sessions, because it weren't "kata." It was putting it all together, learning to attack and defence and react. Learning to fight against multiple opponents and so on...
(IMHO once a week was better than what peoples in many styles sparring, but it still could be much more!)

This was very good style indeed because it wasn't only training like "if you hit like this, i can defend like that." Instead it was totally random sparring and really fighting together.
When we practised to fight against multiple opponents, or group tactics... That is something what you don't find in ring styles! Because in ring it is 1 vs 1. If you want to practise other things, you surely need to go somewhere else to learn them!

In chinese arts i have been finding also skills for using of poisons, using of hidden weapons, using of bows, jumping from high, walking silently in total darkness and so on... There is just so much more than 1 versus 1 what to learn... Ofcourse not all are something what you might need in self defence situation, but in the other hands... I just love those other parts too.
First my priority was absolutely in self defence, but now days i just can study other parts too.



This is very true. I have been in multiple opponent situations many times like i told. Even when they were gang members, they were very poor fighters.
I only knew basics of my style and i afraid alot when it all beging, but still i saw how poor fighters these were. That was real life saver... It was when there was multiple opponents and it was when someone tried to stab me and it was when there were only one opponent against me.
They just didn't know a thing about how to fight... Still they were gang and was fighting with another gangs using pipes, baseball bats, knives and so on... But they still were bad fighters. Below the average martial artists. But they had something. It was will, courage and brave to fight! (Something what you may lack even how long you have been practising martial arts! Actually i believe that even many skilled martial artist lack this courage (And still, it is one of the most important thing above all!))

I have been heard little this and that about that gang after i "get out of the situation"... During time when i was fighting against them, there was only couple real bad guys who did many crimes (And also violentic crimes) but there weren't killers yet. Still they hunted me and tried to kill me many times.
After i get out of the situation there were multiple killers also in that gang. So they finaly did it... Even couple my old huntes did it. They were real bad guys... It dont take too much skills to stab someone. And that is the dangerous part of street fighting!
Even if you are "better" fighter, you might run out of luck. Or they might outnumbered you. And that it is.
Even when average guys don't be so good fighters, we should always remember that luck... If you get out of the situation, you were also lucky! Nothing is 100% sure in streets. (So be humble!)

Now i went little bit offtopic, but street fight is so much difference than ring fight. In ring, somebody always stop the fight when you lose. There is rules. Whole gameplay is toward the competition. Toward something fun, something what you enjoy and like! Gameplay is not to survive when some maniac is trying to rape and stab you. Anybody don't ring the bell after couple first minutes, but fighting is going on and on (Usually fights end pretty fast, but some times, they are longer episodes... Or when someone follow you, but not yet are attacking you and so on. Those situations might take some pretty long time!)


This is exactly good comment! In MMA those are professional fighters. They fight for money and famous. Or just because of fun when they are amateurs and there isn't famous and money around!
They don't fight because they have to fight. Because someone is hunting them, or trying to rob them or stab them... (Self defence aspect.)
And they do not fight because of king and country (military aspect.)

I don't want to bash ring styles or MMA, but there is huge difference why people are practising them! There is huge difference why people are teaching these styles.
You do not talk in MMA practises what to do if someone put knife next to yout throat, and you do not practise crushing anyones adams apples, or digging their eyes out and so on. You are practising pretty safe competition style what aims toward to be good in competition with certain rules. Like i told earlier, stripped version.




I don't know if i agree that.
First we should ask ourselfs what MMA is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts

Mixed Martial Arts maybe was the origin...
But right now you can find MMA schools where you can go to learn ring sport under the name "MMA." So it is right now own style! Style what is focused completely on competitions.
I find it hard to believe that someone go ring sport school and take knife with you and training with it. Atleast here they would shoo you away because they are practising fighting in competitions. Ofcourse it is your business what to do in your own time, but do it somewhere else (And maybe even without a teachers who can teach you...)

I don't say that MMA is BS. Yeah it is fighting, but with rules and in ring. It just is pretty limited stuff. You cannot break anyones arms, you cannot make joint locks in certain joints and so on... You cannot suddenly take knife out and stab your opponent... And you do know that your opponent don't suddenly take his knife out and try to stab you!
In MMA you only practise fighting against one opponent in certain conditions. In real life situations, you need to be watching what is around you, who is attacking, are there more attackers, where attackers hands are because they might go into the pockets and come out with weapons (including firearms!) You might be with your wife (or husband) there might be childrends with you and so on... There might be slippery surface, moving objects, alot of all kind of movements and noise around of you and other dangers too.
So what i'm trying to say is basically that there isn't only mental differences between ring styles and self defence styles. There is also other differences how and what to practise.

Finaly i would say couple things.

MMA is great for self defence, Many other styles are also great for self defence and IMHO couple styles are even greater because they are just for self defence.
I wouldn't dare to say MMA is best.

And...
I totally don't want to bash ring styles. I just hate these "MMA is the best" discussions! Luckily many MMA guys also realise what they are practising. Many of them are really good in what they are doing, much more better than i'm. But in the other hands i just fight dirty. It give me advantage if i ever have to fight against a MMA guy.

And...
MMA might be evolution of the ring sports, but it isn't evolution of self defence, martial arts and modern combat styles. Sorry because another long post.
fair points.

i just want to clarify...

the reason why i would say MMA is good for the average person to train on, is this.... there is a great disparity in how many arts are trained.... some martial arts are well rounded, whereas some gyms focus on very simple things (sport only, forms only, etc etc). i think if you go into the average MMA gym, you can expect to gain some knowledge on punching, kicking, grappling (both standing and on the ground), as well as being used to getting hit, and the conditioning required for a real fight. i would say that the average boxing gym is similar in that at the very least, one would at least be able to hit, take a punch and be in shape.... most people aren't.

yeah, you can always find something specific to what you need that will be perfect for you (or maybe you can't, based off your region), but for the average person, MMA should give them a broad level of training and knowledge....
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Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
So what are the bad habits developed?
Sportsmanship as I said earlier....Working within the rules. You don't train your mind to use everything in your arsenal.


There is an old story about a Marine fighting in the Pacific during WWII. He engaged in hand to hand combat and was probably one of the few who actually knew Judo. At one point the Japanese soldier took the advantage and was strangling the Marine. Out of habit the Marine tapped out, something that is common in training. The Marine was shocked when the Japanese soldier responded like in training and let go of the Marine who quickly pulled out his knife and stabbed the soldier to death.

Real fights are a very different animal then what happens in the octagon.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:12 AM
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Sportsmanship as I said earlier....Working within the rules. You don't train your mind to use everything in your arsenal.


There is an old story about a Marine fighting in the Pacific during WWII. He engaged in hand to hand combat and was probably one of the few who actually knew Judo. At one point the Japanese soldier took the advantage and was strangling the Marine. Out of habit the Marine tapped out, something that is common in training. The Marine was shocked when the Japanese soldier responded like in training and let go of the Marine who quickly pulled out his knife and stabbed the soldier to death.

Real fights are a very different animal then what happens in the octagon.
Yeah. We know, we've discussed this in this thread before.
Once again...MMA fighters aren't stupid...in a real street fight they can do just as much damage as anyone else...ignoring the rules of the arena if they choose to.
Instead of an arm bar that merely causes pain...why can't an MMA fighter on the street simply break the arm at once?
Why can't the same MMA fighter choke an attacker into unconsciousness?

Why can't the MMA fighter shin kick to the groin, or the side of the attacker's knee?

Mr MMA fighter trains with weights, punching bags and live opponents, let's say twice to three times a week...he's used to aiming his strikes with precision and power...so on the street, why can't he choose to kick at the knee instead of the thigh or calf?
Why can't he use a head clinch/lock to practically rip his attacker's head off?

When he knocks/throws the attacker to the ground...why can't he stomp-kick the crap out of the guy when he's down, as opposed to holding back inside the arena.

Her knows he's not inside the arena, he knows there's no ref to hold him back...he can do what he wants, go as far as he wants.

I really don't understand why people say that because MMA has rules it isn't any good for the street.
MMA technique is all about grappling, punching, kicking, kneeing, elbowing..the rules are just in place inside the ring to protect the fighters during a bout...there ain't no rules outside the ring...MMA fighters do understand this, even if critics of MMA on the street do not.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:23 AM
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Not saying I agree with the argument, but one of the arguments is that valid, irl techniques such as biting, eye gouging, fish hooking, nut strikes, etc are illegal in mma, so they're not readily able to be drawn upon in a real life situation. Personally I disagree with this. More brutal techniques don't just disappear like washing juice stains from laundry.

Another agreement is that MMA wrongly emphasizes grappling and that in a street situation a person will needlessly shoot and grapple and could be ganged. This argument assumes that people are stupid, and I can't say as I agree with it. Also, MMA has reached an interesting balance point, were strikers have reached an equipollence, and do very fine in keeping a fight at stand up.

One thing, however, that has occurred with and over emphasis on MMA is hard coding certain drills. Twice now I've had colleagues attempt a shoot on the street; both hurt their knees, one rather grievously. However, this is an issue with any intensive, repetitive training for any sport, and not exclusive to MMA.

Most criticism of MMA is unfounded, desperate and silly, as if MMA is the new bully in school that needs to be taken down a peg. It's as if people only equate MMA with BJJ.

Dudes; MMA=mixed martial arts. Not trying to be prig here, but this can't be cast aside. Most people engaged in MMA have a passion and respect for most styles, but are intelligent enough to perceive that the foolish 'clucking chicken strike' from some wire fu movie is bullsheet and irrelevant.

But hey, it's an uncertain world when the old regimes lose their validity. Boxing and chop socky movies have lost their hold on the masses for something real, something better. Joe Rogan said it best when he went toe to toe on the news with a bitter, old, clueless boxing columnist. He said this.
"You're afraid, because boxing is being swallowed."
And he's exactly right. The Western warrior ethos doesn't need the hocus pocus of 'ancient Chinese master', or the faux toughness and ultra hype bs of boxing.
MMA/UFC has done for combat what the internet has done for wider communication; challenged the false bs satus quo.
The counter to the biting etc is two fold.

1, that punching is not only deadly enough but one of the biggest causes of death in street fights mabye with falling and choking. MMA moves are the most leathal street fighting moves that can be practiced.

2. Nobody pops an eye out in training "real" training is a myth. If I wanted to box and I pretended to punch people I would be laughed out of the gym. Why does it work for eye gouges.

I agree there is very little use for the flying triangle in the street. Having said that MMA.(mine anyway is moving away from dropping the knee to shoot due to the time it takes.) The better example would be the rear naked choke over the standing sleeper.

A third would be the extreme danger of using MMA on the street. If I took someones back and suplexed them I could kill them. Which in general should be avoided
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:31 AM
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Sportsmanship as I said earlier....Working within the rules. You don't train your mind to use everything in your arsenal.


There is an old story about a Marine fighting in the Pacific during WWII. He engaged in hand to hand combat and was probably one of the few who actually knew Judo. At one point the Japanese soldier took the advantage and was strangling the Marine. Out of habit the Marine tapped out, something that is common in training. The Marine was shocked when the Japanese soldier responded like in training and let go of the Marine who quickly pulled out his knife and stabbed the soldier to death.

Real fights are a very different animal then what happens in the octagon.
See I am going to be hesitant to base my self defence on urban myths. I would be hesitant to do a style that bases is seflf defence on urban myths.

And by the way. Technicly you go untill the ref stops you. It is his job to watch for the tap.
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Old 07-18-2013, 03:03 AM
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fair points.

i just want to clarify...

the reason why i would say MMA is good for the average person to train on, is this.... there is a great disparity in how many arts are trained.... some martial arts are well rounded, whereas some gyms focus on very simple things (sport only, forms only, etc etc). i think if you go into the average MMA gym, you can expect to gain some knowledge on punching, kicking, grappling (both standing and on the ground), as well as being used to getting hit, and the conditioning required for a real fight. i would say that the average boxing gym is similar in that at the very least, one would at least be able to hit, take a punch and be in shape.... most people aren't.

yeah, you can always find something specific to what you need that will be perfect for you (or maybe you can't, based off your region), but for the average person, MMA should give them a broad level of training and knowledge....
If we talk only about fighting and ignore all the weapons, situation based training, situation awardness and changing enviroment around you...

It is pretty much same what you learn, it give you advantages against average person. And in MMA they do teach you little bit from every aspect. That is very good indeed.
(Still remember that courage what i was talking about? Some guys just freeze in the streets. No matter how good they are and what they are training. I would say more is depending what is between your ears than what style you are training!)

And yes there is lacking of ground fighting in some of the old battlefield styles... Because if you are on the ground, you are equal to dead. (watch the sumo wrestlers! They only try to get their opponent to the ground! When your opponent are in ground and you are standing up, you stab him.)
Some styles still contain wrestling, but it usually don't be the main point.
Also true but sadly some styles/dojos keep their trainees in cotton. Those are absolutely weak points of those styles/dojos.

But there is still styles what contain little bit this and that. Cover pretty much "everything". MMA isn't miracle among the martial arts.

Forexample Defendo contain alot training where you are wrestling, ground wrestling, hand to hand, kicking, hitting, controlling your opponent and so on... But focus are in self defence (or controlling your opponent if we talk about Defendo Blue.)
I would say this is better for real life than MMA because you learn to fight in all aspects and you learn to fight "dirty". And yes there is alot of contact involved! But there isn't anything about competitions and focusing for competitions. If you want to ask something self defence related, you are in the right place!

But i don't want to bash MMA, it is good because you learn little bit this and that. You learn taking contact too, but those aren't uniques things. That is exactly one of my point. There is no need for hype one style over another! Many styles contain pretty much same basics. Yeah, it is because human body don't vary too much.

Now we take the real life involved to topic.

Like i said, in real life there might be something on the ground, someone might jump right into fight, opponent might take knife and so on... Right now i see that training MMA is lacking some of aspects! But forexample Defendo teach pretty much all what you need to know... (I still don't say it teach you all... And there are things what i don't like at all!)

In real life you don't want to wrestling on ground because in ground there is all kind of nasty things and you do not want to be stuck with your opponent, you might want to break the contact too...

MMA don't teach you those kind of things at all. When we talk about martial arts... Main thing was to practise for the battlefield (attacking, defencing and all the other things like group tactics, battle formations and so on.) In some styles main focus are in the streets... (yeah attacking and defencing once again, but focus are more in every day living.)
And we do have modern self defence styles too where main focus are in self defence!

So i would say when we talk martial arts, we do talk alot about street fights and battlefields. MMA teach you how to fight, but it don't teach you the street aspect at all! That why i wouldn't say MMA is best or "prolly the best" or anything like that.
Yeah MMA fighters are good fighters, but if you only practise MMA you might miss some points what you need in the streets. It might be fatal when you do so!
Yes MMA fighters know little bit this and that and even in the streets if your opponent start to wrestling, it is very important that you know also that gameplay! IMHO it is best if you are better in that gameplay than your opponent. And if your opponent are better than you, you just must to improvise and fight dirty to overcome your opponent.
But like i told, there are other styles too what teach you all the same things but they do teach you other things also than stripped ring version where you cannot do certain joint locks and so on.

One thing what i should bring to the daylight also is how in MMA they like to end ground wrestling pretty fast usually. And some schools even aim there! And what we learned in my previous posts about ground wrestling in the streets? (yeah yeah, not always ground is dirty and there is multiple opponents, but still... You have to observe your surroundings and maybe break the contact and get away. Some times you just don't want to stay and fight, but instead, you want to break that contact and escape!)
MMA is different gameplay than many other styles. There is some strong points, there is other weak points. It isn't the best, it isnt the bad.

Myself, i LOVE historical European fighting styles. And i do mean battlefield styles right now. And i also mean other (specially other!) than sword fighting.
And yes behind the ancient wrestling and "MMA", there was battlefield tactics what was changed to sport where you can pretty safely compete.
I don't know about athletics, but when we talk about soldiers who compete with each others... They were firstly soldiers, after that something else.
I bet those guys were good "in the battle" and also "in the ring." it might even be pretty same thing for them. Ring was practising for the battle. They knew the battlefield aspect of the game.
But when we talk about modern day, it isn't so obvious anymore. Battlefield aspect have gone and there is only ring aspect left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Pioneer James
There is an old story about a Marine fighting in the Pacific during WWII. He engaged in hand to hand combat and was probably one of the few who actually knew Judo. At one point the Japanese soldier took the advantage and was strangling the Marine. Out of habit the Marine tapped out, something that is common in training. The Marine was shocked when the Japanese soldier responded like in training and let go of the Marine who quickly pulled out his knife and stabbed the soldier to death.
There is other stories too! There is story about police officer, who disarmed the bad guy... And after the disarm he gave weapon back to the bad guy... It is repetition what will go to your back bone and play triks. Specially when you are nervous i think.
(In many styles when you practise, you do 5 repetitions and then change turns. So you will disarm your opponent, give his weapon back and disarm he again...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaqhama
.MMA fighters aren't stupid...in a real street fight they can do just as much damage as anyone else...ignoring the rules of the arena if they choose to.
You are right and you arent.
Yes MMA is good style and you can adapt. Some guys adapt easier, some adapt harder. It really depend what is between your ears. I would say it isn't what you are training, it is why you are training and what is inside of your head. (Sorry about repetition!)

Some guys actually are stupid. Others make things what comes in their backbone. There might be things what they are missing, or overlooking (like we all do!) Even Martial Artists are just a humans...

It is easier to ignore the rules when you are practising to ignore the rules. That why in Defendo Blue, (Style what is used by polices, bouncers, security guards and so on) guys do not ignore the rules! Because you train as you fight. (Atleast it is easiest and fastest way to teach it. Ofcourse if you have time, you also can learn different ways!)

In street also when we talk about breaking the joints. For some guys, it is natural thing to do. Cause some serious pain and twisted arms. Others, they have barricades to do so. Even in training when we practise things like crushing the adams apple or digging the eyes, people feel terror to do so... They aren't just ready to do so at all... And if they want to do so, they need ALOT of training to removing those barricades what they have.

Quote:
I really don't understand why people say that because MMA has rules it isn't any good for the street.
MMA technique is all about grappling, punching, kicking, kneeing, elbowing..the rules are just in place inside the ring to protect the fighters during a bout...there ain't no rules outside the ring...MMA fighters do understand this, even if critics of MMA on the street do not.
There is small point why people are saying that. Not huge, but small. Just read my posts and you do find alot of things what you will agree... Some of my points you surely will disagree and that is ok.
I regret my steep points what i made. I don't surely be against the MMA, They are very good at what they are doing because many guys practise alot and hard and hard way!
But i just don't understand when so many guys still are hyping MMA over the other styles like they have found the light... I'm starting to be little bit full of it and that affect to my comments.

Myself i do not understand why peoples who are supporting MMA is so desperately attacking against other styles and repeating again and again how MMA is the best. (This is something what i see where i'm living far more often than attacking against the ring sports!)
They are just styles! Not the best, not the worst. "Most" of them cover pretty much same things anyway... Hitting, kicking, grappling, elbowing are just the basics. So i repeat it once again: It is more why you are training and what is between your head, Not what you are training.

Another thing is what kind of group you have around of you while you are training... If everybody else is just wanting to stay fit, it is pain in the *** trying to learn fight!
In MMA luckily many guys want to learn to fight! It is actually better group around you than what you can find in many martial arts where i'm living! Luckily i found my group when i needed to learn how to fight.

Btw it was very close once that i started to training join lock wrestling regurally. And i still love it (and respect) alot! (Just wanted to show i'm not against the "sport" styles myself.)
But what is in my back bone are in my back bone... I just cannot lose my habbit to hitting my target when i see the opportunity! It take alot of time to think all the time not to hit or kicking when see nice opening.

Peace!
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Insneaker....it's not that some are bashing traditional martail art styles, it's just that as MMA became more popular and evolved into a full contact fighting system...it quickly highlighted the fact that a lot of TMA stuff is not practical or effective.

There's very little in MMA that is not practical and effective, in or outside the ring.

It is also being proven true that one doesn't need to spend years learning MMA techniques to become a 'Master' or a Black Belt.
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Insneaker....it's not that some are bashing traditional martail art styles, it's just that as MMA became more popular and evolved into a full contact fighting system...it quickly highlighted the fact that a lot of TMA stuff is not practical or effective.

There's very little in MMA that is not practical and effective, in or outside the ring.

It is also being proven true that one doesn't need to spend years learning MMA techniques to become a 'Master' or a Black Belt.
What i can say? I don't see this discussion should be "this is better than that" kind of... I don't want to attack against any styles and i don't really understand why someones are attacking against others styles. OR wanting to attack other styles and boosting their own.

Ofcourse we tend to think how our style is superiour and best but still... They aren't! It really don't be so much difference what you are training than i'm because many styles are pretty similar with each others! There is certain way to kick, there is certain way to punch. There is certain way how body naturally moves. More we training, more we see similarities!
And ofcourse, more force we use in fight and more speed we use, Even more different styles start to look with each others! google some Systema videos. Even Systema look pretty sane thing when they do it with fast tempo and with force...
And like i said MMA is only stripped down version for safety competition. IF you want to learn others what MMA is missing, you have to go other schools to learning them. MMA is good, but it surely isn't the best. Yeah it isn't the wors either. It is "somewhere between there."

Myself, i'm pretty aggressive guy.
Some guys are looking for inner peace and if some style fit for them, i don't go there because it don't fit for me. If some styles don't sparring it don't fit for me because my goal is toward somewhere else.

Yeah not all the martial artists are in same channel with me. Sparring, fighting and be more aggressive than your opponent. I know i'm not so welcome in every dojos because of my attitude. My goal is to be good fighter and understand modern and ancient warfare.
Not be playing around with some locks and how not to hurt my enemy and so on... (yeah once one teacher said for me that i did something wrong when my lock hurted him... And that was end of my practising there! Ofcourse lock should hurt!)

In modern warfare there is different styles what they use. In usa they call it H2H. In Russian there is many styles. Not only 2 or 3 but more. In philippines, they have their own style.
Some of the practise ofcourse is courage the soldiers. Other are aiming toward hand to hand fighting and eliminate your opponent.
If MMA is really that good i wonder why not Armies use that instead all the other styles? (Yeah it is where those styles are aiming and what for people are practising them. Also those styles are usually quite simple and little ones without complicated things at all!)

There are martial arts what are effective styles. Some are even practical. Have you ever heard about Kyoshinkai Karate? It is pretty straightforward style and with contact!
Even some Kung Fu styles are sparring. Ofcourse some don't sparring and some are totally BS. You have been hearing how "we dont sparring because our style is too deadly and injuries are happening if we do so?" Heck that is mainly excuse and nothing more.
Ofcourse if you are using rules, you are limiting your fighting, but you could still practise and sprarring because it develope yourself so much! You just don't have to use all kind fo locks and "deadly moves" while sparring.
Yes, i like when we talk about contact and sparring. It drop out BS pretty quickly. If some styles don't do this often, shame on them.

But there is styles what are atleast as good as MMA. That is my only point. MMA isn't so miraculous when all come to end...
As you see i'm pretty traditional guy and i'm still bashing some traditional styles... mainly because how they practise them and because they lacking some things what i think are a very important things. But i have to say that MMA is missing some consept why i do not like to practise it either. It is good sport and alot of sparring, but it is missing some things what i want to practise. And i don't have time to practise many styles anymore. I just have to focus somewhere what contain them all.

MMA are full contact system, So what? There are plenty others full contact systems too? What was the point?
MMA are effective? Compared to what? There is other effective styles too, so what was the point?
There is styles what you can learn fast, MMA isn't the only one.
MMA is nice and good, but it isn't so miraculous and it surely don't offer anything else than other styles. Instead it lacking many things. I want to training to use weapons because in my area, we cannot carry guns. So knifes and others are very nice indeed.

And become to master and fast? What the matter is what is your tittle? If you only want a tittle or belt, you can buy it! Tittles was for foreigners anyway... In many styles there werent belts at all! You was just a practioneer untill you learned all what they could teach for you.

Edit: This isn't best response at all but i think it as just a pure BS when someone tell how their style is the best. And i don't have time right now to spend on internet to explain these things over again... Or nerve. Gotta go! Stay safe.
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Old 07-18-2013, 07:26 PM
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Yeah. We know, we've discussed this in this thread before.
Once again...MMA fighters aren't stupid...in a real street fight they can do just as much damage as anyone else...ignoring the rules of the arena if they choose to.
Instead of an arm bar that merely causes pain...why can't an MMA fighter on the street simply break the arm at once?
Why can't the same MMA fighter choke an attacker into unconsciousness?

Why can't the MMA fighter shin kick to the groin, or the side of the attacker's knee?

Mr MMA fighter trains with weights, punching bags and live opponents, let's say twice to three times a week...he's used to aiming his strikes with precision and power...so on the street, why can't he choose to kick at the knee instead of the thigh or calf?
Why can't he use a head clinch/lock to practically rip his attacker's head off?

When he knocks/throws the attacker to the ground...why can't he stomp-kick the crap out of the guy when he's down, as opposed to holding back inside the arena.

Her knows he's not inside the arena, he knows there's no ref to hold him back...he can do what he wants, go as far as he wants.

I really don't understand why people say that because MMA has rules it isn't any good for the street.
MMA technique is all about grappling, punching, kicking, kneeing, elbowing..the rules are just in place inside the ring to protect the fighters during a bout...there ain't no rules outside the ring...MMA fighters do understand this, even if critics of MMA on the street do not.



Once again a less than intelligent reply, but that is to be expected. Your experience with the martial arts goes beyond watching? I really can't tell, and since you clearly didn't understand my post I will repeat myself for the benefit of others.

It creates a dangerous mindset where people fall into the rules. Want to take someone to the ground and grapple with them they can easily pull a knife and stab away or as you may have noticed in the news pulling a gun works very well also. Sometimes it isn't always the best idea to charge forward, but rather to avoid the situation all together. Years back a top athlete in Italy a soccer player had an encounter with a homeless man. The athlete was much stronger and the man deranged, but since the athlete didn't know how to handle a real fight he died. He thought he'd beaten the man, but he kept coming.

Now as you admire other men who are very fit I would encourage a self defense program along with your admiration. Some of the moves can turned deadly while others are a bad idea. I like MMA and it teaches people to explore other martial arts and mix up their training. You don't seem to know very much more than sport though, and that has killed much better athletes than you.
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Old 07-18-2013, 07:30 PM
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See I am going to be hesitant to base my self defence on urban myths. I would be hesitant to do a style that bases is seflf defence on urban myths.

And by the way. Technicly you go untill the ref stops you. It is his job to watch for the tap.


Well I don't really tend to listen to people who can't communicate their message effectively. Now barring your mistakes it is just one example of many, and if you can't understand the principal frankly I won't waste my time explaining it. I've used simple terms. TECHNICALLY speaking I don't think you have much experience to draw from.

How about an example you can understand. Indiana Jones used the gun instead of the whip, because he didn't need to close with an attacker and put himself at risk. You get the idea now?

Last edited by New Pioneer James; 07-18-2013 at 07:31 PM.. Reason: additions.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:03 PM
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New Pioneer James: Once again a less than intelligent reply, but that is to be expected.


Everyone else in this thread has managed to respond to each other without resorting to snide remarks.

The majority of us here are all adults with years of experience in various martial arts...if you want us to take you seriously you need to start acting like an adult and stay within the boundaries of politeness, otherwise we'll just consider you an ignorant troll looking to incite a flame war...which isn't going to happen with the posters here, because despite our differing views, we all respect one and other.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by New Pioneer James View Post
Well I don't really tend to listen to people who can't communicate their message effectively. Now barring your mistakes it is just one example of many, and if you can't understand the principal frankly I won't waste my time explaining it. I've used simple terms. TECHNICALLY speaking I don't think you have much experience to draw from.
Yes, you're wasting your valuable time on us, why don't you move on and leave us to debate, discuss and dissect TMA vs MMA in the mature manner that the rest of us have used in this thread.

You see, we don't feel the need to insult the other posters here, even if we disagree with them.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:29 PM
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Insneaker; What i can say? I don't see this discussion should be "this is better than that" kind of... I don't want to attack against any styles and i don't really understand why someones are attacking against others styles. OR wanting to attack other styles and boosting their own.
We're not 'attacking' other styles or systems, just discussing what we perceive as deficiencies in many of the TMA's.

MMA has certainly highlighted some major misconceptions about martial arts in general, and some styles and techniques in particular.

This is a good thing, which is why in my original post I stated that MMA is the evololution of martial arts, in the west at least.
Though a quick look around the Internet shows that MMA is now popular in Japan and China as well.
Actually Shootfighting has been popular in Japan for a decade or more, and still appears to be so.
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