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Old 01-19-2020, 09:25 PM
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Goblin X Goblin X is offline
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Ive got a few partially serrated, but their usable length is limited. found full length serration to be a whole lot better. if your going serrated, you need the whole edge or back edge done that way to be truly functional.
the H1 spyderco warrior because the back edge is serrated, ive used for several years to cut lines, ropes sien nets, and other waterborne debris off boat props and shafting. perfect tool. curve is just right.
the AL Mar, was made for a different use, to grab and hold meat, cuts rope and poly line, just as well............ full serrated edge just works better.......
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Old 01-20-2020, 07:17 PM
Gaston444 Gaston444 is offline
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Originally Posted by lasers View Post

In my experience a axe or hatchet can only be so sharp in use. I have sharpened them to razor sharp but after a couple blows they are no longer sharp.
This is exactly why hatchets are less versatile. They are also not likely to be around on a casual hike, when you unexpectedly sprain an ankle... A big chopping knife is more likely to be there than any hatchet, and, to some extent, it can compensate with finesse what a hatchet does with weight.

I found you can further cut on the hatchet/knife disparity by using the knife's finesse, this by always hitting towards one side, always inside the previous cut, rather than alternating hit sides: This cuts the effort to get through by about 20-30% on a loose branch, and far more than that if it is still rigidly attached. A hatchet cannot really hit inside a previous cut (too fat), so it will not benefit from this trick in the same way...

https://i.imgur.com/6sQNciQ.jpg

That being said, the hatchet is still definitely less effort on the hand, even if the number of hits is not hugely less: A hatchet does bounce and is inherently less safe, but my biggest objection is that the uneven weight/bulk distribution makes them absolute crap to carry....

I've found a knife with a hollow grind decelerates much softer in the wood, and this mitigates the impact on the hand (wood is pinched away from the edge as well, so big knives with hollow grinds are in reality very edge-strong, even with thin edges): The "softer" hits of a hollow grind is a really big deal, as the jolt on the hand is the big downside of knife chopping: A big knife can absolutely match the hatchet in hits (or even beat it!), but it will do this mostly on one trial run, creating a deceptive impression... The difference in hand fatigue is still hugely to the benefit of a hatchet over the work needed for a shelter... For just a fire, the knife is actually better at de-limbing, and for most smaller limb chopping (see how comparatively poorly a hatchet does on a thin, springy limb).

The only good cheap production big chopper with a hollow grind that I know of is the Schrade SCHF45. After that, you quickly get into far more expensive stuff, like the Randall Model 12 (9" and 20 ounces) or the Randall Smithsomian (11" and 30 ounces). Other big knives are usuall flat grinds, which is much harder on hands, and also sticks into the cut, which is bad, or convex grinds, which don't stick as much, but try too much to imitiate hatchets, and so also sharpen poorly... A good convex one would be the Falkniven Thor, or especially the newer rubber handle model whose name escapes me.

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Originally Posted by lasers View Post

If I want them to stay sharp they need a much blunter cutting angle. I assume the same is true of a knife used the same way.
No, anything Seki-City, and even a cheap 420J by United, will hold a fine phonebook-paper cutting edge through 1000 chops:

https://imgur.com/vaAeYIf
https://i.imgur.com/RFjp41h.jpg

In fact these Uniteds have the best edge-holding to chopping I have ever seen (by far), but the handle is some cast pot metal that clatters in a few hits... I re-handled mine with a SureFire 9P body...

Factories typically do better than customs in edge-holding, and some of the top custom stuff can be really terrible... Trust factories and NOT customs: Customs are a gamble... They really are.

In general basic 440 will do better than newer fancier steels like all the CPMs, which are just poor. Seki City VG-10 or VG-1 are really excellent (as is anything Seki-City), so the big Fallknivens are a very good investment. Just avoid CPM crap, and consider how Ontario's big rubber handle is a plus, although these knives need a much sharper edge. Keep in mind that a knife depends much more on sharpness, and sharpness also reduces hand impact, on top of the lesser work: This has a compounding effect on a knife that the hatchet will kind of ignore and power through (but then a dull hatchet will bounce dangerously on smaller limbs, just when you least expect it)...

Gaston

PS: As far as batoning goes, to me it is still fringe use, but the argument that convinced me was that the sharper split edges catch fire more easily in wet conditions: Worth keeping in mind.
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Old 01-21-2020, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
I do not understand the fascination with batoning....
Agreed.

Batoning is a great way to ruin a good knife. I have seen people bend their blade while batoning. Carry a small pack hatchet if you want to split wood.

Batoning is only permissible if no other choice is there, just realize that you may end up destroying the one tool that you cannot do without while out in the wilderness.
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Old 01-21-2020, 06:10 PM
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AlphaSierraCharlie AlphaSierraCharlie is offline
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It seems like everyone who thinks that batoning will ruin a well made knife has only tried doing it with those cheap disposable filet knives. I can't even remember how many knives I've batoned with, including pocket knives. Some I've absolutely bludgeoned the snot out of. I've never ruined, broken, or damaged one. I suppose it helps if the knife is made of heat treated steel, I could see problems with batoning ceramic knives.
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Old 01-21-2020, 09:37 PM
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I like the Becker knives. I think the BK2, which I have, is a little short for decent chopping and batoning, consider one of the longer versions. I like the Becker "tweeners", smaller versions of their full size lines, for a general purpose belt knife, decent for batoning.
I have the BK2 in my GHB in my wife's vehicle. The BK16 is in my trucks' GHB. Both GHBs have a FastHawk tomahawk. Both vehicles have a small camp axe and machete in them for real SHTF along with other useful tools, items, and supplies
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Old 01-22-2020, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AlphaSierraCharlie View Post
It seems like everyone who thinks that batoning will ruin a well made knife has only tried doing it with those cheap disposable filet knives. I can't even remember how many knives I've batoned with, including pocket knives. Some I've absolutely bludgeoned the snot out of. I've never ruined, broken, or damaged one. I suppose it helps if the knife is made of heat treated steel, I could see problems with batoning ceramic knives.
It wasn't a "cheap filet knife" that was ruined, it was a Buck Selkirk. After repeated whacks with another piece of firewood, he bent the blade. If a Buck knife can't take the abuse from batoning, that showed me that it would be a bad idea to try it with any other brand of knife.
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Old 01-22-2020, 01:34 PM
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AlphaSierraCharlie AlphaSierraCharlie is offline
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So you're basing this off of a single incident? Because as I've said, I've beaten the absolute crap out of knives batoning them and never had an issue. These knives are all over the spectrum, from low end Moras and Opinels to well made customs. I have probably hundreds of single incidents saying that batoning isn't an issue.

That being said, I wouldn't expect a cheap chinese folder to survive getting batoned through seasoned oak. I think it's far more likely that the knife you saw bend was a quality control issue. Especially since knives typically don't "bend". What exactly do you mean by it bending, do you have a picture?
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Old 01-23-2020, 01:29 PM
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Okay, we have to agree to disagree then.

You want to baton wood with your knives? They are your property, do as you will with them. I don't trust batoning, so I won't use my knives to do that.
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Old 01-23-2020, 04:02 PM
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Okay, we have to agree to disagree then.

You want to baton wood with your knives? They are your property, do as you will with them. I don't trust batoning, so I won't use my knives to do that.
Use a butter knife.
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Old 01-24-2020, 10:33 PM
xstuntman xstuntman is offline
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Okay, we have to agree to disagree then.

You want to baton wood with your knives? They are your property, do as you will with them. I don't trust batoning, so I won't use my knives to do that.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Every tool has a proper use and the reason we have hatchets is kinda obvious.

Meh.
Blame youtube.
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Old 01-25-2020, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Hagalaz View Post
Okay, we have to agree to disagree then.

You want to baton wood with your knives? They are your property, do as you will with them. I don't trust batoning, so I won't use my knives to do that.
I think it goes back to purpose. I see no reason to baton my knife through an 8" diameter piece of hard wood in freezing temps. Sure, it will test the heat-treatment and quality of your knife, but serves no other purpose beyond abuse-testing. That I can agree on.

While I have a decent collection of quality knives, I have used them hard. What many don't realize is that a quality, purpose-built knife is far tougher than most people think and most people will have to go to extremes to induce any type of failure. I’ve seen and done stuff with some of my larger knives that shouldn’t be done in reality; but they are more than capable. I’ve dug a two-foot deep water seep along side a river bag in rocky soil, and I’ve used the flat of the blade to drive wood wedges in a log to split length wish and chop through almost 10 inches of ice; the only damage is a duller edge, but field sharpening should be integrated into your hard-use knives to begin with. Modern knives are tougher than most people give them credit for and most people will neve stress them to failure. Conversely, and this where most people recoil, some of these “tested” purposes of knives are extreme and there are several other techniques that can be used to avoid beating your blade up.

Using a wooden (that’s often key as I’ve seen morons use rocks) baton to “tap” your knife through a small round of wood specifically to process smaller, drier kindling is just one of many techniques. Popularity has exploded because of abusive tests…that’s where I think (and can understand) the opinions that it’s an absurd use of a knife. I don’t think and experienced knife user is going to die in the wilderness if they refuse to baton their knife through wood…it’s not a necessary technique, just an option some prefer to use.

Ironically, I feel that chopping with a fixed blade with anything less than 8-9” is just as useless, absurd and abusive as using a baton to beat your blade through a larger round of wood. I see no purpose of chopping with a belt-sized fixed blade…it’s just an absurd use of your knife with no purpose and extremely inefficient. I have done a couple small v-cuts and broke 3-4” limbs, but seeing people chop through the 12” log with a 7” blade is quite comical to me and I haven’t been able to figure out a purpose other than testing your knife. This is another reason why I will almost always have a small folding saw if I’m carrying a belt-fixed blade and both are far more versatile and lighter combined than an axe. And having the knowledge of breaking longer poles and limbs without a knife is a far more useful skill than using your blade to chop through them.

ROCK6
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Old 01-25-2020, 10:18 AM
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I'm guilty of the classic fallacy of assuming people know what I mean.

I never meant batoning a knife through anything bigger than half the blade length. And I don't encounter frozen wood, so that was never a consideration for me. Now, if I WAS trying to split that 8" round and I only had a knife, I wouldn't hesitate to baton it far enough to get some wedges started, but I don't think anyone would call that abuse.
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Old 01-26-2020, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by AlphaSierraCharlie View Post
I'm guilty of the classic fallacy of assuming people know what I mean.

I never meant batoning a knife through anything bigger than half the blade length. And I don't encounter frozen wood, so that was never a consideration for me. Now, if I WAS trying to split that 8" round and I only had a knife, I wouldn't hesitate to baton it far enough to get some wedges started, but I don't think anyone would call that abuse.
Another method is to simply baton side slabs off. I've done this with a larger knife and round of wood. Essentially squaring it off (similar to using a froe and making shingles). I can then baton much smaller inner pieces of kindling if necessary. Again, it's just a technique and using wedges is another example that allows you to avoid beating the snot out of your knife for no good reason.

ROCK6
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:14 PM
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Another method is to simply baton side slabs off. I've done this with a larger knife and round of wood. Essentially squaring it off (similar to using a froe and making shingles). I can then baton much smaller inner pieces of kindling if necessary. Again, it's just a technique and using wedges is another example that allows you to avoid beating the snot out of your knife for no good reason.

ROCK6
Yup. That and sabre grind. This silly fashion of doing knives either full flat like chef knives or with a very high grind is just ****ing me off. A good sabre grind can be both razor sharp and wedge into the wood with minimal surface contact.
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