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Old 02-20-2012, 07:12 AM
MI_Dan MI_Dan is offline
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When I took my CCW class I got to participate in a demonstration. They picked myself and another guy to stand back to back. I faced the range and he faced the parking lot. My revolver was loaded with two rounds and placed on the table in front of me, cylinder open, and when the instructor said "GO" the other guy started running and I picked up my pistol, shut the cylinder and fired the two shots double action. The other guy had to stop when he heard the second shot. He made it 24 ft! That was the first I ever heard of the 21 ft rule.
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Old 02-20-2012, 07:37 AM
Vanishing Nomad Vanishing Nomad is offline
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That 11 seconds was an example of what I was trying to say earlier. The victim was on the defensive giving every advantage to the attacker. Real life ain't the movies and you aren't going to doing a choreographed dance ala West Side Story. The attack will be close and happen fast and your only defense is to attack with whatever you have if you are that close. If you aren't that close then hope you run faster than knife man. Run like a man is after you with a knife.

You combat knife guys out there don't even think about going for your knife if his is already out and yours is not in your hand. You cannot fight when one hand is groping for your weapon.
What I was taught to do is pass the knife to the side, closing them off. Once the knife is out of the way, to close the gap as quick as possible, up root them by compromising their center and compressing their structure.

This sets up a number of take downs where the arm is damaged in the attackers fall. At this point, if he still even has the knife, it does not matter. His arm is useless.

Once all that is done, then we can go for our blade. It's the only time in the whole fight where you will have time to get it out. Although, it's usually still easier and faster to just use their knife.
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Old 02-20-2012, 07:47 AM
AlphaPie AlphaPie is offline
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Unless the attacker sees the .45 pulled out and runs the other way.
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Old 02-20-2012, 07:49 AM
Vanishing Nomad Vanishing Nomad is offline
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Unless the attacker sees the .45 pulled out and runs the other way.
That would mean he was at 22 feet.
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Old 02-20-2012, 08:02 AM
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Horned One Horned One is offline
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The real lesson isn't necessarily about guns or knives specifically, but rather to stay alert and don't rely too heavily on any one weapon or technique. In the OP video, the officers were too focused on their firearm for defense.
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Old 02-20-2012, 08:06 AM
Vanishing Nomad Vanishing Nomad is offline
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The real lesson isn't necessarily about guns or knives specifically, but rather to stay alert and don't rely too heavily on any one weapon or technique. In the OP video, the officers were too focused on their firearm for defense.
Agreed. Also I would add, knowing the best response for the range you are in.
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Old 02-20-2012, 08:12 AM
MuzzleBlast MuzzleBlast is offline
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Every time I see these videos, I keep thinking the issue isn't who has the gun or who has the knife, or even who's within 21 feet or 25 or whatever, it's far more who is willing to kill the other guy first.

That's the weakness of most "good guys"; the "bad guys" are always far more willing to hurt someone else first - this gives them a big edge.

In normal day to day activities, I don't see how this disadvantage can be eliminated. It can be reduced with training and awareness, but it can't be eliminated.

In shtf, I think the only realistic approach is to develope more of a willingness to defend onself with little provocation at significantly longer distances - more of a "take one more step I'll shoot" - and mean it!

This willingness needs to be decided on BEFORE you're in the situation the first time because you may not get a second chance.
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:19 AM
Radar00 Radar00 is offline
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the number one tenet of EVERY martial art

~ Never put yourself in a dangerous position if you dont have to~

in the movies the heros come rushing in to save the day
If you dont have to- don't. In reality thats how people die

The training is for creating a reflex response so that you dont think, you just act when you're IN a dangerous situation and hopefully you will be proficient enough to defuse the situation or end it. If you notice- people that are true martial artists or fighters typically dont want to fight or would rather avoid problems or settle them before they happen.

Never go out looking for trouble lest it will surely find you

Ofcourse if you're a police that is your job, so you must train hard and practice and be ever vigilant which is a skill in and of itself
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:21 AM
OhCanada OhCanada is offline
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The real issue here isn't the gun, the knife, the attacker, or the defender...the real issue is that "this is the internet!"

Everyday for years I have seen cops come within 2 of a knife and they don't suddenly jump 21 feet back when they walk by me on the street. The 21 rule was made for cops and is only really of value to those people who see the knife in the hand of the attacker.

My teacher would say, "What is the defense against the sucker punch? There is no defense, it is a sucker punch!". If you see the attack coming from 21 feet or more away it is no surprise. I've seen one CCTV video of a robbery where the robber cuts the throat of the first person inside the door before moving on to the clerk. The clerk got a heads up by seeing the attack but not the person at the door, one second he was standing there and the next second he knew he was bleeding from the throat.

All you guys are just like the cops, you (and I) are not going to stay 21 feet away from everyone when we are out in a busy area just because every person may have a knife and one of them may attack you.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Vanishing Nomad View Post
What I was taught to do is pass the knife to the side, closing them off. Once the knife is out of the way, to close the gap as quick as possible, up root them by compromising their center and compressing their structure.

This sets up a number of take downs where the arm is damaged in the attackers fall. At this point, if he still even has the knife, it does not matter. His arm is useless.

Once all that is done, then we can go for our blade. It's the only time in the whole fight where you will have time to get it out. Although, it's usually still easier and faster to just use their knife.
We are on the same page, attack, attack attack get them off balance. First face to face with a knife I grabbed the knie arm wrist and squeezed till he dropped it. He was a scrawny teen about 6'2 and maybe 140 pounds and I was fresh off the farm. No contest. Turns out somebody had filled him full of bovine scatology about something I had supposedly said about him but I hadn't. We got that squared away and I gave him his teeny jack knife back.

The other two clowns were more serious, one got stopped with a kick to the chest the other I kicked in the eye. Can't do that today but then I don't go to New York or live in Chicago anymore so I am hoping the situation never comes up again. I love knives but I can truly say I have never been in a knife fight and have walked in some bad places. I never heard of anybody getting prior warning it was always close up and if you weren't paying attention it was over before you could raise your arms to defend yourself or turn and run.

A shipmate of mine from my Navy days has a lung lobe missing now because he got knifed in a crowd. He never saw it coming and doesn't know why he was attacked. That is a typical knifing. At least when the dopes went after me we were alone. In a crowd I would have been just as helpless if I would have been surprised and that is a fact of life.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:24 AM
sachson sachson is offline
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I've heard rumors that the 21 foot 'rule' has been expanded... If you are threatened with serious bodily harm, protect yourself. Lawyers will squabble anyway. And do you have your 5.11 tactical ruler to measure out 21' in a split millisecond???
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