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Old 03-17-2020, 05:07 PM
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Just another troll refusing to answer specific questions.

HINT: I do not base my life on the philosophies of (other) men, like the Creed.
HINT: If that's true, you would reject the Christian Scriptures for the exact same reason you reject the Creed. Your questions were answered centuries ago, by the Christian Church which LATER cannonized the Holy Scriptures for the purpose of introducing non-Christians to the Christian Life. Some folks "get that". Some never will. Kyrie Eleison.

Do you have anything to add?
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Old 03-17-2020, 05:13 PM
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Your questions were answered centuries ago, by the Christian Church
Sorry Charlie. Each generation gets to decide for itself what is right and true and not rely on the mistakes of the past. Who do we worship, pray to and who forgives sin?


9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matthew 6:9,14 (KJV)
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Old 03-17-2020, 05:50 PM
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Sorry Charlie. Each generation gets to decide for itself what is right and true and not rely on the mistakes of the past. Who do we worship, pray to and who forgives sin?
Sorry? I'm sorry I asked if you had anything to add.

Regardless, you speak like a dedicated Papalist on steroids. If there a better explanation for why western christianity has become addicted to theological novelty, I have not yet heard it. Based your statement here, I have no idea WHO you worship or WHY you pray at all. Do you receive the Sacrament of Confession on a regular basis or do you simply forgive your own sins as most other Catholics do these days?

Kyrie Eleison.
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Old 03-17-2020, 07:35 PM
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answer specific questions.
IMO.....this is reasonable and fair!
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Old 03-18-2020, 04:54 AM
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Sorry? I'm sorry I asked if you had anything to add.
No, you did not ask me if I had anything to add. I asked the questions. You dodged them, claiming they were answered millennia ago.

IF what you said had a shred of truth to it, you'd answer ALL 7 specific questions and reference the ancient source of answers. Instead, you just troll, doing whatever you can to bury the Q&A, moving right to Ad homenim & pretending I have to answer your Ad homenim "questions" while dodging mine.
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Old 03-18-2020, 05:38 AM
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Old 03-18-2020, 05:40 AM
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IMO.....this is reasonable and fair!
Yet, we're onto the 2nd page and no one has even attempted to answer the specific questions in the OP. The intellectual dishonesty of the (trinitarian) respondents is revealed.

I've noticed this for a long time, not just on religious matters. In life, there are pros and cons regarding nearly any decision. Rarely does all evidence point to one side.
  • Is the Coronavirus subsiding or still spreading exponentially? Globally? Nationally? Provincially?
  • Do I have enough TP?
  • Is it worth staying at my current job or should I start looking for another one?
  • Should I ignore my wife's antagonistic comments or begin the 2020 smackdown?
  • Should Pluto be demoted to a 'dwarf' planet?
  • For that matter, why is a 'dwarf planet' not considered a type of planet but deemed a non-planet? (Aren't red apples considered a type of apple?)
The above questions might be answered reasonably and fairly. However, when it comes to religion, I have long ago noticed the response is often surprisingly self-righteous, HOW DARE YOU ASK SUCH QUESTIONS? This reveals an insecurity, a profound lack of confidence. In another thread, I was asked to justify the question; why does it matter. NOTE: You cannot answer a question with a question. (It's just a form of avoiding answering while often attacking the questioner in the process). Cat does it all the time.

The answer is because I am intellectually curious. This surprisingly self-righteous response was the response of my priest when I went to CCD as a child and asked him about Mary no longer being a virgin since I had just listened to a Mass where Scripture talked of Jesus' brothers and sisters. HOW DARE YOU ASK SUCH QUESTIONS? Treating the Q as insolent reveals that while the subject may be religion, the object is thought & people control, power over others. The few. The Proud. The Question Askers.

For the record, had the Arian controversy won out in the popular vote at the council in the 5th century and the question of Jesus divinity had been answered in the negative centuries ago, I'd be asking about scripture verses that support Jesus divinity - and I'd be mocked and derided for that by self-proclaimed Christians!


Iíve commanded you to be strong and brave. Donít ever be afraid or discouraged! I am the Lord your God, and I will be there to help you wherever you go.
Joshua 1:9 (CEV)
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Old 03-18-2020, 05:54 AM
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Treating the Q as insolent reveals that while the subject may be religion, the object is thought & people control, power over others. The few. The Proud. The Question Askers.
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[thread closed]
There is already a thread about Orthodoxy. The insecurity is such that these controllers of people don't want ideas discussed that they don't agree with. Hence the 'thread closed' post.
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Old 03-18-2020, 08:40 AM
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PE, I do agree with AJ and Cat and see this issue much in the same way they do.
That's great! I realize most do and have no problem with anyone having any opinion on any topic. What interests me is less the conclusion but more the method at how one arrived at whatever opinion they have.

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But I wanted to congratulate you on an excellent thread with a clear, logical argument of your position on this very difficult subject.
Thank you.

I don't think it is a difficult subject at all. What makes it difficult is the emotional investment people make in it. I imagine discussing the Theory of Evolution was much the same way 1.5 centuries ago. Like most things in life, there is evidence for and against. A dispassionate mind should recognize there are 2 sides and learn the strengths and weaknesses of both sides.


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How could anyone blame you for asking good and honest questions (your opening OP)?
Well, ask the other posters.

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I look forward to reading and learning from this thread.
I doubt you will learn from reading unless you, yourself attempt to answer the 7 questions in the OP.

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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
Thanks for taking the time and your honesty on this complex subject!
You're welcome.
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Old 03-18-2020, 08:44 AM
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There is already a thread about Orthodoxy. The insecurity is such that these controllers of people don't want ideas discussed that they don't agree with. Hence the 'thread closed' post.
I don't have any insecurity. Never had any and don't even know the meaning of this word, so to speak. So lets begin:

1. Why does the earliest Gospel, Mark open by calling Jesus the son rather than God incarnate?

Each Gospel presents a side of Jesus that the other Gospels do not concentrate on. Mathew is the "Simple the Facts" Gospel. Mark is additional more Enthusiastic Gospel presenting additional miracles, Luke is the Intellectual Gospel and John is the closest to the Truth of what really happened, the Mystical Gospel, the Conclusion Gospel. He was also chosen by the Holy Spirit to utter the last words of the Bible "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.".
Each of these Gospel are part of one message. The Holy Spirit speaking with four mouths but in fact with one layered mouth. This is because we are built complex by God and God knows how to talk to us.

So each Gospel presents to you a Jesus that is different from the other Jesus, Mathew Genealogy is different than Luke Genealogy and I explained in another thread why and the wonder that this is. Saint John Damascus explained that to me and I was in awe.

2. If Jesus were God, who would be our mediator to God as 1 Timothy 2:5 says?

The mediator between us and God cannot be any other than God. If my child does me wrong my wife can intervene on its behalf but if I am mad on my wife as well or she is not in the picture who can intervene for my child to contain my wrath? The answer is... my own mercy, a part of myself. Jesus is God because it is the ONLY way that God can contain His Wrath and show His Love. Jesus is the Love in God. We see in the OT a different God than Jesus we see the Holy God the harsh one I could say, the perfectionist. We see in Jesus the Love of God, the part in Him that is Love and was hidden in the OT for fear of being abused and misunderstood.

Jesus is God because only God can mediate with God.

3. Who was pleased with Jesus in the final verse of chapter 2?

God the Father. He was pleased with Jesus as I am pleased with the part of myself that forgives my children. This is not to say that God is a Person suffering from split personality. There are actually 3 Persons in the Godhead as explained by the verses that lead us to this conclusion as well as Jesus words throughout the Gospels and the Apostles that built the churches and their Disciples. All those people were Trinitarians.

4. The wording is a little odd but to who did Jesus ascend to in John 20:17?

The relationship between the Persons in the Godhead is complex and can give energy to confusion. This is called faith for a reason after all, not science.
However we know from 3 sources about Trinitarianism: the Gospels, The Apostles and their Disciples, and the Holy Spirit that opens this understanding in us. The Church was built so that the faithful will not be grinded by their own confusion and doubts as much as possible. The church is there to offer assurance when one does not feel the Holy Spirit or is in doubt of so much. The Church begins with Jesus and goes through the Apostles and their Disciples and their disciples after them until it reaches our generation.

In the verse John 20:17 Jesus clearly speaks about God the Father and since He is Begotten by God it is His God as much as ours. But there is a difference: my child can call me Father and my spiritual children can call me Father as well but ONLY MY CHILD is of my blood and flesh. Only He is part of my essence. We are all children of God the Father (Jesus and the Holy Spirit included) but the Son and the Holy Spirit are of the same essence with God the Father and they are not Creatures. If God taught us something when He made us able to make children is that He is a Father Himself even before Creation. A Father of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Both these Persons are Co-Essential with God for God willed them so.

5. In Matthew 24:36, is there equal knowledge or does God know more than Jesus?

Yes. God the Father knows more than Jesus. He gave the Son all the Knowledge but He certainly is the originator of this knowledge. Also His Will is more important than the will of the Son. We see this in the Gethsemane Episode.

6. Why is Jesus going to God in John 14:28?

Jesus speaks the Truth here both as man and as the Co-Essential Son of God. The Father is indeed far greater than Jesus for He contains in Him all the Power that He can give either to Jesus and the Holy Spirit or parts of it to Satan and his minions to work us out. as we see in the episode with Jesus temptations on the mountain showing all the power on Earth.
Yes, The World (All Creation) was made THROUGH Jesus (the Word, Son of God), but it was made BY God the Father. He Willed the Creation through the Word.

7. Who raised Jesus in Acts 3:26?

We are all servants of God. Jesus showed that when He served the Apostles by washing their feet. The Begotten Son and the Proceeded Holy Spirit are servants of God as much as all the Creatures that came from the energies of God for there is only One Father, but there are 3 Persons in the Godhead as per God the Father's Will of Begotten-ing and Proceedeth-ing and Create-ing. The Son is different than the Holy Spirit but they are both from God without being created. Their birth has no time (there is no beginning with them as well as with God) and is different than ours because we are part of Creation. They are not.
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Old 03-18-2020, 08:46 AM
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Could you tell us, sorry if you have answered this, what denomination you are basing your beliefs on?

It might help further the discussion
Sorry that your thread has been befouled by the ortho-drones

We do not agree all the time
But I have grown to respect your opinion
Thank you
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Old 03-18-2020, 09:27 AM
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Could you tell us, sorry if you have answered this, what denomination you are basing your beliefs on?

It might help further the discussion
I know others want to tie an individual's post to denomination. I suppose that is a way to approach this collectively rather than individually, formulaically rather than derivatively.

To answer your question, I am not basing my beliefs on a denomination. I have explained my religious past several times before. It's a bit muddy. Was raised Catholic, became a Unitarian-Universalist leaning toward humanism before that organization became over-run by Pagans. Now I attend a non-denominational church. Hope that helps.

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Sorry that your thread has been befouled by the ortho-drones
Me too.

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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
We do not agree all the time
But I have grown to respect your opinion
Thank you
Nice of you to say.
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Old 03-18-2020, 09:35 AM
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"Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
Sorry that your thread has been befouled by the ortho-drones"

Me too.
If that is how you feel maybe I will remove my post#30 with the answers. Unless you reconsider this "me too" answer.
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Old 03-18-2020, 09:47 AM
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We do not agree all the time
But I have grown to respect your opinion
Thank you
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Old 03-18-2020, 09:49 AM
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Thank you for the perspective PeterEnergy
Rather than denomination, I should have asked about your Walk

Again, I will say I have been greatly blessed by the Christian Brothers and Sisters here
I have zero animus towards any Bible based denomination

I actually admire and respect the Orthodox Church
I cannot abide the denominational pride that is present
Zero respect from the Ortho-Drones and a crazy unbridled pride that is unbecoming

I am most greatful for the Messanic Jews
Sorry if I used the wrong term
Sorry for the thread drift, but you all have blessed me greatly

As a Trinitarian, I have nothing to say on this subject
Other than to say
It reminds me of the two young Morman men on their mission, who interrupted me watching my daughter's Little League game. She had to play with the boys, no other option in the sticks

Long story short, we had a pleasant duscussion
They asked me to pray about accepting the Book of Mornan
I said I would, provided they pray about rejecting it
That was that
This is that

I have my beliefs
I believe in my Heart of Hearts that what I believe is True and Correct
I will never engage in a Bible debate again
At my age I have heard it all
In church, at university when I was a religious studies major, and as an autodidactic

Yet my core beliefs have not changed at all
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Old 03-18-2020, 09:52 AM
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1. Why does the earliest Gospel, Mark open by calling Jesus the son rather than God incarnate?
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So each Gospel presents to you a Jesus that is different from the other Jesus, Mathew Genealogy is different than Luke Genealogy and I explained in another thread why and the wonder that this is. Saint John Damascus explained that to me and I was in awe.
Cat,

1st, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. There's a lot to digest and I'll take time getting back to it.

2nd, I found this quoted portion of yours fascinating and think this could be a separate thread. I've expressed sentiments like this, not only about Jesus, but the Bible as a whole to RichardinColorado.

3rd, I'm not sure you answered my actual question about the language being "Son of God" rather than "God incarnate." I know it is a challenging question and certainly not semantics. In no way did St Mark think he was writing about God incarnate and we know this because of his language, not referring to incarnation but the son of God.

Keep in mind, the Greeks had all kinds of gods procreating all kinds of children. Incarnations also occurred in the Greek religion and they articulated the difference. (I say this because the Gospel of Mark was originally written in Greek, right?) So, at the start, there is a departure from incarnation suppositions decades or centuries later.
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Old 03-18-2020, 09:58 AM
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Cat,

1st, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. There's a lot to digest and I'll take time getting back to it.

2nd, I found this quoted portion of yours fascinating and think this could be a separate thread. I've expressed sentiments like this, not only about Jesus, but the Bible as a whole to RichardinColorado.

3rd, I'm not sure you answered my actual question about the language being "Son of God" rather than "God incarnate." I know it is a challenging question and certainly not semantics. In no way did St Mark think he was writing about God incarnate and we know this because of his language, not referring to incarnation but the son of God.

Keep in mind, the Greeks had all kinds of gods procreating all kinds of children. Incarnations also occurred in the Greek religion and they articulated the difference. (I say this because the Gospel of Mark was originally written in Greek, right?) So, at the start, there is a departure from incarnation suppositions decades or centuries later.
Peter lets take it one at a time. First this.

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"Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
Sorry that your thread has been befouled by the ortho-drones"

Me too.
If that is how you feel maybe I will remove my post#30 with the answers. Unless you reconsider this "me too" answer.
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Old 03-18-2020, 10:01 AM
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1. Why does the earliest Gospel, Mark open by calling Jesus the son rather than God incarnate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
So each Gospel presents to you a Jesus that is different from the other Jesus, Mathew Genealogy is different than Luke Genealogy and I explained in another thread why and the wonder that this is. Saint John Damascus explained that to me and I was in awe.
Cat,

1st, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. There's a lot to digest and I'll take time getting back to it.

2nd, I found this quoted portion of yours fascinating and think this could be a separate thread. I've expressed sentiments like this, not only about Jesus, but the Bible as a whole to RichardinColorado.

3rd, I'm not sure you answered my actual question about the language being "Son of God" rather than "God incarnate." If I misunderstood your answer, please clarify (or simplify). I know it is a challenging question and certainly not semantics. In no way did St Mark think he was writing about God incarnate and we know this because of his language, not referring to incarnation but the son of God.

Keep in mind, the Greeks had all kinds of gods procreating all kinds of children. Incarnations also occurred in the Greek religion and they articulated the difference. (I say this because the Gospel of Mark was originally written in Greek, right?) So, at the start, there is a departure from incarnation suppositions decades or centuries later.
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Old 03-18-2020, 10:03 AM
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Cat,

1st, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. There's a lot to digest and I'll take time getting back to it.

2nd, I found this quoted portion of yours fascinating and think this could be a separate thread. I've expressed sentiments like this, not only about Jesus, but the Bible as a whole to RichardinColorado.

3rd, I'm not sure you answered my actual question about the language being "Son of God" rather than "God incarnate." If I misunderstood your answer, please clarify (or simplify). I know it is a challenging question and certainly not semantics. In no way did St Mark think he was writing about God incarnate and we know this because of his language, not referring to incarnation but the son of God.

Keep in mind, the Greeks had all kinds of gods procreating all kinds of children. Incarnations also occurred in the Greek religion and they articulated the difference. (I say this because the Gospel of Mark was originally written in Greek, right?) So, at the start, there is a departure from incarnation suppositions decades or centuries later.
Peter lets take it one at a time. First this.

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"Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
Sorry that your thread has been befouled by the ortho-drones"

Me too.
If that is how you feel maybe I will remove my post#30 with the answers. Unless you reconsider this "me too" answer.

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Old 03-18-2020, 11:18 AM
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Peter lets take it one at a time. First this.

If that is how you feel maybe I will remove my post#30 with the answers. Unless you reconsider this "me too" answer.

I certainly do reconsider this with your post#30 answers. The "me too" was in response to your previous posts (as well as the others who did not answer the OP questions).

Cat, even though this thread is into the 2nd page, you are the only one who even attempted to honestly answer the questions. I appreciate that even if we do not have the same doctrine's 100% down the line.

BTW, how are you dealing with the Coronavirus stuff?
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